What is a black belt test in your art like?

[Makalakumu]

1) How long (approximately) is a test for 1st degree black belt in your style with, say, two students testing?

My BB test was three days long. Eight hours a day. It takes a minimum of five years to attain black belt under my instructor. We learn striking, grappling, throwing and locking, weapons, and energy work in our system.

2) Who tests you?

My teacher and any "guests" he decideds to invite. At my test, a black belt in shaolin kempo, two black belts in ryu kyu kempo, judo, jujutsu, aikijutsu, a maestro in arnis de mano, a tai chi chuan instructor and a heavy weight college wrestler were invited. We were expected to spar against all of them and hold our own as in not get our *** handed to us. All of these people have trained with us in class over the years. We know them all, because periodically my instructor will invite them to teach something. Some expect to fight on the first day, some want to test your skill in various ways, some just want to watch.

The hardest thing I had to do was wrestle the college wrestler. He had a hundred pounds on me. He could wrap me up into a pretzel faster then a frog on a hotplate. My strategy was to stay away from him and pound him if he shot. And when we finally went to the ground, keep him in my guard until the time ran out or I could get a submission. This guy was so quick and so strong that any lock I tried, he was able to wriggle out. I got a couple of lucky breaks a few times and close to a tap, but was relieved when my instructor stopped the match. He wasn't expecting to get someone on their back so easily because wrestlers usually go for the pin. Since I didn't care about that, he sorta didn't know what to do next...

3) In what manner is the test conducted?

The first day is the day that the doors are closed and we go over the stuff the public shouldn't see. The second day is a seminar that my instructor and his "guests" present. Every Black Belt Candidate is required to present a new skill at the seminar. On the third day, we take a written exam for the first part of the day. The second part of the day, the public is invited and we exhibition our best technique. We also spar full contact that day against one and two opponents. For second dan this becomes three. For third dan it's four...all at full speed full contact.

4) Besides application of technique, are their any other requirements? (words/phrases in foreign languages, culture etc.)

One must be able to pass a written exam on all of the culture and terminology and one must prepare two research papers on martial arts topics. One of the papers concerns the skill that the BB will present at the seminar. My skill was a rethinking of our kicking curriculum and how we teacher kicks from a physiologic and kinematic point of view. It was good enough that my instructor started teaching kicks that way.

I was very honored.

upnorthkyosa

 

[7starmantis]

Yes, I had studied in one that black sash was a beginner. It was part of the uniform and not a whole-heartenly rank issue. Ironically, any instructor wore yellow sashes. there were not any "color" representations in between.

I often get disgiusted when I see "Gong Fu" schools open and use a "color sash" system very similiar to Karate systems. Yuk.

Yeah, its pretty much a lighthearted part of our unifrom rather than a ranking of skill.

Your agenda is what I would describe with "yuk".

I will still never understand this part but :idunno: , if it works; keep it, I guess.

What dont you understand about it, maybe I can explain our thinking on it for you.

7sm

 

[jfarnsworth]

What dont you understand about it, maybe I can explain our thinking on it for you.

There's nothing to explain. I fail to see why someone would have to run to pass a martial arts test. Just my opinion.

 

[MichiganTKD]

I would agree. Other than making running part of your program to train for a test, what does running have to do with a Dan test? Unless running away is part of your self defense program.

Also, why have Instructors from different styles judge? You are testing for a Dan rank in Tang Soo Do. The opinion of a Shorin-ryu or other instructor is irrelevant. Yes, it is helpful eventually to be introduced to other styles' techniques, but a Shorin-ryu or wrestling coach has no place at a TSD testing. Certainly not as a judge. Only organization TSD judges should be allowed to participate.

 

[Makalakumu]

Also, why have Instructors from different styles judge? You are testing for a Dan rank in Tang Soo Do. The opinion of a Shorin-ryu or other instructor is irrelevant. Yes, it is helpful eventually to be introduced to other styles' techniques, but a Shorin-ryu or wrestling coach has no place at a TSD testing. Certainly not as a judge. Only organization TSD judges should be allowed to participate.

I should add that there are plenty of TSD BBs there. Including my instructor's teacher (6th dan). They help out with the test at points and at higher ranks recommend for grading.

There is a good reason to have others though...

When one does naihanchi hyung (kata) one finds that there are many grappling techniques hidded in the moves. My instructor teaches those techniques, but other styles also do that same form. He invites those people, who he has befriended, to come and teacher their perspectives. Sometimes it helps our understanding to see the same thing from many different angles.

Also, other styles have strengths and weaknesses. When you spar against someone who has a strength in an area that you are weak, you learn a lot. Also, there are some things that TSD trains hard and others that don't train as hard. We are well rounded, but not specialists in everything. Training with a specialist really teaches you.

So I guess it all comes down to this...is your black belt test an assessment of learning or an assessment as learning? My instructors will not test you if you are not ready for the test. If that is the case, then why test at all? Why not just hand out the belt if you've put in the blood sweat and tears? We test to push ourselves. We test to learn more about ourselves. We test to see where we have strong and weak areas. We test to learn, not to fail.

That is by definition, assessment as learning.

upnorthkyosa

PS - this would be an interesting new thread. Testing for learning or testing as learning. What do you think is right?

 

[7starmantis]

There's nothing to explain. I fail to see why someone would have to run to pass a martial arts test. Just my opinion.

Well, first there is an endurance aspect to running that proves at least some level of cardiovascular health or "skill". Running away is a huge part of our technique base, in fact it should be in most MA's.

Second, there is nothing like a good 3 or 5 mile run after holding horse stance to really wear out your legs, suck your wind, and drain your energy before doing your forms and fighting. Fighting is very cardiovascular, and there is simply not a better form of cardio training than running. There are things that focus heavily of different parts, but running is a full body cardio test. Our focus is fighting, and not being able to run at least 3 miles means you wont be able to handle our fighting portion. Plain and simple. If you can't run and then fight, you dont deserve to be an advanced student at our school.

Why run? Why do situps or pushups for a test?

7sm

 

[MichiganTKD]

But like many other things, that should be done outside of testing or class to prepare you for testing. I'm not denying that running is very beneficial; I do it often myself. However, a test should consist of a demonstration of your knowledge of the various techniques and principles of your style. While running is excellent cardiovascular training, it is also not a martial arts technique. Your average Joe can run. Running should get you in shape for the test itself, not be part of the test.

And again, I don't agree with having instructors from other styles judging tests outside their art. You don't have a French teacher grading an English Lit exam do you?

 

[Ceicei]

My teacher and any "guests" he decideds to invite. At my test, a black belt in shaolin kempo, two black belts in ryu kyu kempo, judo, jujutsu, aikijutsu, a maestro in arnis de mano, a tai chi chuan instructor and a heavy weight college wrestler were invited. We were expected to spar against all of them and hold our own as in not get our *** handed to us. All of these people have trained with us in class over the years. We know them all, because periodically my instructor will invite them to teach something.

(Bold font added for emphasis.) I think his school is within its right to invite other styles to be involved, because they were already part of his training to prepare for and be part of the BB exam.

- Ceicei

 

[MichiganTKD]

And again, just because they have contributed to his training in the past, does not make them qualified to judge a Tang Soo Do testing. That honor is reserved for the TSD Head Instructor and Masters.

Pope John Paul II associated freely with Jews, Muslims, Protestants etc. But only Cardinals choose the Pope.

 

[Sam]

did he ever say that they judged? I thought he fought them, but wasnt his instructor the only one judging?

 

[Ceicei]

did he ever say that they judged? I thought he fought them, but wasnt his instructor the only one judging?

I agree. What I understood from the comments he made were:

We were expected to spar against all of them and hold our own as in not get our *** handed to us.

Basically, the martial artists from other styles were just partners in sparring.

Also, other styles have strengths and weaknesses. When you spar against someone who has a strength in an area that you are weak, you learn a lot.

Seems pretty clear cut to me. It is part of his school's training and evidently, tested on this too.

- Ceicei

 

[jfarnsworth]

Why run? Why do situps or pushups for a test?

Hey, I agree.

I want to see Kenpo for 2 to 2.5hr.s not sit and watch someone run. Tigerwoman and I discussed this back and forth in another thread and unfortunately I'm not going to change my view on running for a test. My discipline is Kenpo. I want to see people test on Kenpo.

Now if you are going to ask me about my cardio; then yes I do that. Right now only one day a week. Usually 20min. on the elliptical machine. 15 min. on a stationary bike then run one hard mile on the treadmill. I also lift 4 other days of the week. Starting next week I'm going to start cardio 2 days a week. Alternating between machines plus adding in the stairmaster. If all goes well I'll be having a test this summer. When I get to about 2 months away I'll introduce a third cardio day. At 2 weeks out it will be moved to 5 days a week. When it's good weather out I will also ride my bike 20 to 30 miles at a time on the weekends.
Now that being said about me; I don't expect to do this for a Kenpo test. My testing should be done over Kenpo and nothing more than Kenpo. Unless they ask for stick or knife work. I doubt they will because it's a Kenpo test.

 

[7starmantis]

But like many other things, that should be done outside of testing or class to prepare you for testing. I'm not denying that running is very beneficial; I do it often myself. However, a test should consist of a demonstration of your knowledge of the various techniques and principles of your style. While running is excellent cardiovascular training, it is also not a martial arts technique. Your average Joe can run. Running should get you in shape for the test itself, not be part of the test.

Can your average joe run several miles in a limited amount of time, then play every form they know full speed and power, and then fight full on for 1 1/2 hours? The run just brings up the difficulty of everything else. We train for pure application and realistic self defense, to demonstrate you know how to perform a technique is different from pushing your body to its stopping point and then hooking up that technique in a realistic environment against a resisting opponent in a full contact, full speed type fight.

I want to see Kenpo for 2 to 2.5hr.s not sit and watch someone run. Tigerwoman and I discussed this back and forth in another thread and unfortunately I'm not going to change my view on running for a test. My discipline is Kenpo. I want to see people test on Kenpo.

Well, thats why the run is not part of the 2 to 2.5 hours of material testing. My "discipline" is kung fu and that is all part of kung fu. Its simply a mater of differing views and styles. Like I said before, showing you can go through the motions of a technique while your not tired is very different from hooking it up in a real situation after being completely drained. Its just we have different goals in our training it seems.

Now if you are going to ask me about my cardio; then yes I do that. Right now only one day a week. Usually 20min. on the elliptical machine. 15 min. on a stationary bike then run one hard mile on the treadmill. I also lift 4 other days of the week. Starting next week I'm going to start cardio 2 days a week. Alternating between machines plus adding in the stairmaster. If all goes well I'll be having a test this summer. When I get to about 2 months away I'll introduce a third cardio day. At 2 weeks out it will be moved to 5 days a week. When it's good weather out I will also ride my bike 20 to 30 miles at a time on the weekends.

Actually, I didn't ask about your cardio. However, if your going to have a black belt under me, I'm going to make you do something to prove you are really up to that level.

Now that being said about me; I don't expect to do this for a Kenpo test. My testing should be done over Kenpo and nothing more than Kenpo. Unless they ask for stick or knife work. I doubt they will because it's a Kenpo test.

What? Your point is that a kenpo test should be only about kenpo...unless its about something else? Kenpo may not involve running and all, but its simply a part of kung fu.

7sm

 

[Makalakumu]

And again, I don't agree with having instructors from other styles judging tests outside their art. You don't have a French teacher grading an English Lit exam do you?

A punch is a punch is a punch. Same for kicks, locks, throws and many weapons. It's not like english or french because as humans we have generally one body morphology. The fact that we can have many minds turns a karate punch into a kung fu punch...

Other styles have different perspectives and other specialize in different things. These other instructors are invited to come and test our skill. They can offer their opinions on the parts they specialized and the parts wished to see. The point is my learning. The point is to teach me. I know all of these people. They have been to our class and their knowledge has been part of my training already. TSD is a well rounded art that contains all sorts of techniques. It is designed to be strong in striking and to not leave any blatent gaps in knowledge of other things. Incidentally, I walked into my current jujutsu class and knew pretty much everything up to green belt (half way to black).

Who make the final determination for grade? My instructor. As far as TSD is concerned, THAT is his specialty and I am his student. He accepts the comments of other instructors and may take them into account. My teacher's teacher's opinion carries great weight given his experience and high rank, yet, it is he must make the final decision.

Again, the purpose of testing is very important to understand.

1. You can have assessment for learning. This is like a pretest to see what you know before you start training. Some arts do this.

2. You can have assessment of learning. This is a traditional test where the level of your learning and skill is assessed. You pass or you fail.

3. You can have assessment as learning. This is a test designed to challenge and teach. Your skills are put to the test and the goal of the test is to learn more about yourself.

Our tests are assessments as learning. My instructor makes the determination of our skill (assessment of learning) long before the test. He would not let us test if we were not ready. Imagine, three days of grueling work designed to break you down mentally and physically and teach you about yourself. That is a TSD bb test.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Can your average joe run several miles in a limited amount of time, then play every form they know full speed and power, and then fight full on for 1 1/2 hours?

Probably not. As I said if that's what you like for your tests then great.

The run just brings up the difficulty of everything else. We train for pure application and realistic self defense, to demonstrate you know how to perform a technique is different from pushing your body to its stopping point and then hooking up that technique in a realistic environment against a resisting opponent in a full contact, full speed type fight.

Ok

Well, thats why the run is not part of the 2 to 2.5 hours of material testing.

Alright, then who watches the tester run for "x" miles? I guess better yet who watches the watchers? If you have a set run of 5 miles you wouldn't want the watchers to let you off at 4. I have other things that I have to do in a day rather than watch someone run.

My "discipline" is kung fu and that is all part of kung fu. Its simply a mater of differing views and styles.

That's fine if that's your views. As stated before, you won't change my view and I'm not going to change yours.

Like I said before, showing you can go through the motions of a technique while your not tired is very different from hooking it up in a real situation after being completely drained.

Sure.

Its just we have different goals in our training it seems.

Yes we do. I'm fine with that.

Actually, I didn't ask about your cardio.

Yes, I see that. What I should have said was IF you asked me about my training, then I would have responded. I do believe that you need to be in shape to practice martial arts. I prefer to do mine on my own. No one tells me to do this or that, I just do it. If I do get to test this summer, I will be in shape. It's just that I don't believe it should be apart of the test. It appears you and I have the same goals (personally) except they are in slightly different places. I personally would like to be the best I can be and what others do is no concern of mine.

However, if your going to have a black belt under me, I'm going to make you do something to prove you are really up to that level.

I couldn't get a black under you. After obtaining a Black in TKD and a Black in Kenpo I unfortuantely wouldn't make it in your school. My right knee gives me difficulties running distances of about 2 miles or more. This is why I prefer the elliptical machine, biking, or stair masters.

Your point is that a kenpo test should be only about kenpo...

Yes, that is correct.

unless its about something else?

Depends. If we incorporate stick and knife techniques in our set curriculum then yes it's fair game to test over. If I'm in a Kenpo school I don't think that I should test of Jiu-Jitsu techniques. If one decided to do this how would you know if your techniques were any good? Maybe there's a student that feels a little more comfortable on the ground and can execute ground techniques better than some of the others in the studio. Later to find out if a JJ instructor came in to say it looked like crap. Again, here we go. I don't mind cross training. Actually a friend of mine who owns a JJ school is on this board. He lets me come in from time to time in his studio to roll with his students. Should I be tested in the Kenpo curriculum on his JJ techniques? How would one know if the techniques were right or wrong? If I wanted to test in JJ I would join his school and go through his curriculum.

Kenpo may not involve running and all, but its simply a part of kung fu.

I agree.


I have made my points and you have made yours. We will continue to disagree on this subject until we get tired of it. :asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

I would agree. Other than making running part of your program to train for a test, what does running have to do with a Dan test? Unless running away is part of your self defense program..

:asian: Agreed on many points.

 

[terryl965]

Well almost all MA'ers I know does some kind of cardio in there ciricullum, not to say on a test. I have my students warm up and during there warm-up they run after running they proform there basics and then there Poomse, I believe a good poomse should be done will the student is tired to see if they have what it takes to finish the rest of the test. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Mark L]

Running is not something I've been tested on, but it certainly plays a part in our BB tests. The testing moves from place to place (dojo, field, woods, parking lots, etc.) and we get around by running. It is also used as a punishment, screw something up and you get to think about it for a mile. It's also provoides the opportunity to launch ambushes :ultracool .

Fitness and conditioning are very important to my teacher, consequently, I was prepared for the miles I did that day. They were really just an opportunity to catch my breath and relax my head.

 

[7starmantis]

Alright, then who watches the tester run for "x" miles? I guess better yet who watches the watchers? If you have a set run of 5 miles you wouldn't want the watchers to let you off at 4. I have other things that I have to do in a day rather than watch someone run.

No one does. Our lower level tests dont involve running, so while I go run, they are doing their test. No one "checks" my run. Usually we will run with each other for support. If I run only 2 miles instead of 5 I'm only cheating myself. Its a different mentality in kung fu. You will only train as hard as you want to, if you dont want to be there, leave. See, a black belt means basically nothing in kung fu. Its just a time for you to push yourself and learn things. Our tests are more learning experiences than showing what we have allready learned.

That's fine if that's your views. As stated before, you won't change my view and I'm not going to change yours.

No problem, I'm not trying to change your views, just help you understand mine a bit I guess.

It appears you and I have the same goals (personally) except they are in slightly different places. I personally would like to be the best I can be and what others do is no concern of mine.

Sounds like we have that in common, but what I meant about our goals being different is in the way we train.

I couldn't get a black under you. After obtaining a Black in TKD and a Black in Kenpo I unfortuantely wouldn't make it in your school. My right knee gives me difficulties running distances of about 2 miles or more. This is why I prefer the elliptical machine, biking, or stair masters.

I wasn't really refering to you in specific, but just "you" in general. I'm not trying to change your mind on this subject, just thought it would be nice to have some discussion with others who think differently than myself.

We mainly use our tests to push our bodies and minds into a situation as closely resembling a real self defense situation as possible. This, in our opinion, means pushing our bodies to exhaustion before doing the fighting, thats our thinking on the matter. Just showing technique, or even simple application is what our lower level tests are for, the advanced tests are for pure application in realistic situations.

7sm

 

[jfarnsworth]

No one does. Our lower level tests dont involve running, so while I go run, they are doing their test. No one "checks" my run. Usually we will run with each other for support. If I run only 2 miles instead of 5 I'm only cheating myself. Its a different mentality in kung fu. You will only train as hard as you want to, if you dont want to be there, leave. See, a black belt means basically nothing in kung fu. Its just a time for you to push yourself and learn things. Our tests are more learning experiences than showing what we have allready learned.

Ok, I can accept that.

No problem, I'm not trying to change your views, just help you understand mine a bit I guess.

I do understand. We were both trying to get our point across and as I said before we are just going to disagree on this subject. It's not bad just the way it is.

I wasn't really refering to you in specific, but just "you" in general. I'm not trying to change your mind on this subject, just thought it would be nice to have some discussion with others who think differently than myself.

I know you weren't talking to me specifically. Although, what do you do with someone who can't run that distance due to problems outside their control? As I stated my knee doesn't let me run that far. Does someone not achieve the rank of black due to the lack of being able to run? You can't test them on their knowledge and how they teach in class? Judged by their piers? Judged by the attitude? Judged by commiting themselves to the martial arts? That's what a test is and should be. :asian:

We mainly use our tests to push our bodies and minds into a situation as closely resembling a real self defense situation as possible. This, in our opinion, means pushing our bodies to exhaustion before doing the fighting, thats our thinking on the matter. Just showing technique, or even simple application is what our lower level tests are for, the advanced tests are for pure application in realistic situations.

I do this everyday in the weight room. Push myself to almost complete exhaustion. There are times when I limp my ### out and my training partner is laying on the floor. Like you I do the same things just in different ways.

Good discussion. :asian: