Train TMA but fight like kickboxer

[Buka]

D...You had me until you said this. Again. Why rail against entire "systems"? It gets you nowhere.

All styles can work. There's no style that doesn't have at least one person out there who train it correctly including sparring and prep for competition. And by one I mean many. Are there karateka that don't spar? Sure but there are also BJJ schools that don't. Those people aren't equipped for confrontation, right?

Each art out there has it's scions and poseurs.

There isn't a style you can name that also can't also find full contact fighters in. I remember early UFC when karate of all things was said to "not work anymore".. That didn't age well. When I saw Lyoto Machida pull off a classic White Crane technique for a KO, I laughed so hard.

I remember that. I really liked watching Machida.

I've never seen or heard of a BJJ school that doesn't roll. I can't imagine it. Might be some that never start from stand up, but I've never seen that either.

Had a discussion with a gal coworker a long time ago. She was a brown belt in Karate, about to be tested for her first Dan. I forget which style her school was. I was teaching American Karate at the time. She seemed to know everything, so I asked her how much sparring they did.

She told me she had never sparred. She then went on to say "I've never actually seen sparring."

I was truly at a loss for words. I just politely nodded from that point.

 

[drop bear]

D...You had me until you said this. Again. Why rail against entire "systems"? It gets you nowhere.

All styles can work. There's no style that doesn't have at least one person out there who train it correctly including sparring and prep for competition. And by one I mean many. Are there karateka that don't spar? Sure but there are also BJJ schools that don't. Those people aren't equipped for confrontation, right?

Each art out there has it's scions and poseurs.

There isn't a style you can name that also can't also find full contact fighters in. I remember early UFC when karate of all things was said to "not work anymore".. That didn't age well. When I saw Lyoto Machida pull off a classic White Crane technique for a KO, I laughed so hard.

OK. Specifically your system then. Your coaches. Your school and your fighters.

Unless of course you are churning out fighters. In which case. Sorry.

I mean let's go the other way. Yes karate works in the ring. I know guys from karate schools who are exceptional fighters. That doesn't mean someone else's karate works.

Yes there are BJJ schools that don't spar. And guess what. They don't turn out capable fighters. Their system doesn't work very well.

So we can still draw a line between a system that works and a system that doesn't.

All systems cannot work. There are consistent methods that work. Which is why machida's karate looks more like a muay Thai class that Freddy can't fights karate school.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes there are BJJ schools that don't spar. And guess what. They don't turn out capable fighters. Their system doesn't work very well.

If the system is the bicycle then does the bicycle not work because the student doesn't train to use it?
If the system is Kung Fu then does Kung Fu not work because the student doesn't train to use it?

 

[JowGaWolf]

If this is the system and the person claims they can learn to ride a bicycle by training this, then their training doesn't match their goal. In the context of being able to ride a bicycle, then this system would be inadequate and would be considered as broken. But if your goal is to get some exercise by pedaling, then this system would be good for that. I just wouldn't depend on it to teach me how to ride a bicycle.

 

[Oily Dragon]

OK. Specifically your system then. Your coaches. Your school and your fighters.

Unless of course you are churning out fighters. In which case. Sorry.

Why are you apologizing?

I don't have a system, but all of my insructors and schools I have been in over the years, send fighters to competition, with rare exception like my Tai Chi sifu who is too old to compete full contact, but is pretty good at showing me the meditation, Qigong, and wrestling aspects. Nowadays he's a forms medalist.

Every one of the Southern Five Family arts has a history of full contact fighters going to competitions back a dozen generations. I know at least one Five Ancestor Fist fighter who went Hulk Mode and into pro MMA. Actually I know several such people personally. I must be very lucky. The guy who taught me Muay Thai kicks was a Jeet Kune Do dude. Crazy, I know.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I remember that. I really liked watching Machida.

I've never seen or heard of a BJJ school that doesn't roll. I can't imagine it. Might be some that never start from stand up, but I've never seen that either.

Had a discussion with a gal coworker a long time ago. She was a brown belt in Karate, about to be tested for her first Dan. I forget which style her school was. I was teaching American Karate at the time. She seemed to know everything, so I asked her how much sparring they did.

She told me she had never sparred. She then went on to say "I've never actually seen sparring."

I was truly at a loss for words. I just politely nodded from that point.

I thought it was gossip too and then a few years back I did a search for "BJJ schools that don't spar" and was a little blown away by all of the conversations going on. Hundreds or more.

There are apparently schools that don't let white belts spar, or force them to complete courses first. That's weird to me, none of the martial arts I've done prohibited sparring. I didn't think that was a thing in BJJ but it appears so. Who knows the scale? Maybe BJJ has gone the TMA route: buyer beware.

I know we're going off topic, but here's one just as example.

https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/lst63w

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are apparently schools that don't let white belts spar,

If you use sparring as part of the warm sequence before the form class start, your students will have to spar.

When you don't give your new students any options, the problem is solved.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When you don't give your new students any options, the problem is solved.

My wife tells me this all the time. I got moody when I read your statement because she has told me this so many times lol.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There are apparently schools that don't let white belts spar, or force them to complete courses first. That's weird to me, none of the martial arts I've done prohibited sparring. I didn't think that was a thing in BJJ but it appears so.

I don't particularly care for this method of teaching, but it's important to note that these schools do incorporate plenty of regular sparring once the student reaches blue belt. (Or two stripe white belt, or completed a basics class, or whatever the requirement is for that school.) From what I've been able to determine regarding these schools, students can usually start sparring within 3-9 months.

The idea behind that approach is that they want students to have a foundation of basic techniques to work with when they start sparring, rather than just throwing them to the sharks before they have any idea of what to do and seeing who sticks around afterwards. I understand the sentiment, but in my experience I can get just about any student to spar safely and productively in a much shorter period of time without using them as shark bait.

 

[drop bear]

If the system is the bicycle then does the bicycle not work because the student doesn't train to use it?
If the system is Kung Fu then does Kung Fu not work because the student doesn't train to use it?

View attachment 28109

Martial arts is the only place where someone could, with a straight face, say they ride a bicycle. And actually be doing whatever that is in the picture.

Which is why you get so many people who are sceptical about Martial arts.

And instead of fixing it. Or separating themselves from the people who do that. Martial artists confuse and deceive people to make it as hard as they can to tell.

And when they do get called on it get all semantics and butt hurt.

It isn't my fault that for example most kung fu gyms are a girl riding a stationary bike and calling it a triathlon more often than they are a hard training gym with the capability to actually develop a person in to someone who can fight.

So yes. The bicycle doesn't work. If you don't use it properly.

 

[drop bear]

If this is the system and the person claims they can learn to ride a bicycle by training this, then their training doesn't match their goal. In the context of being able to ride a bicycle, then this system would be inadequate and would be considered as broken. But if your goal is to get some exercise by pedaling, then this system would be good for that. I just wouldn't depend on it to teach me how to ride a bicycle.


View attachment 28110

That would somehow be more spiritual or something.

It wouldn't be that say an actual bike will do everything that bike will do. Puss all the things it won't.

 

[drop bear]

I don't particularly care for this method of teaching, but it's important to note that these schools do incorporate plenty of regular sparring once the student reaches blue belt. (Or two stripe white belt, or completed a basics class, or whatever the requirement is for that school.) From what I've been able to determine regarding these schools, students can usually start sparring within 3-9 months.

The idea behind that approach is that they want students to have a foundation of basic techniques to work with when they start sparring, rather than just throwing them to the sharks before they have any idea of what to do and seeing who sticks around afterwards. I understand the sentiment, but in my experience I can get just about any student to spar safely and productively in a much shorter period of time without using them as shark bait.

there are flow roll systems of BJJ where you can get your really real belts. And not spar. They are designed for people too precious to roll or something.

I personally think they short change the students by selling the name and not providing the service.

 

[JowGaWolf]

rather than just throwing them to the sharks before they have any idea of what to do and seeing who sticks around afterwards.

This is the fastest way to demoralize a new student. Bait gets eaten and the stuff that's left is clearly damaged and not whole.

 

[JowGaWolf]

"

 

[JowGaWolf]

Martial arts is the only place where someone could, with a straight face, say they ride a bicycle. And actually be doing whatever that is in the picture.

Which is why you get so many people who are sceptical about Martial arts.

It's not confusing. You just have to think about it. If I tell you the answer then you will resist the truth due to your bias and own perceptions of how you see things. If you think about it and come to the answer yourself then you will see the truth without me having to tell you.

So yes. The bicycle doesn't work. If you don't use it properly.

See.. and you say it was confusing. You came up with the answer and I didn't have to tell you.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That would somehow be more spiritual or something.

It wouldn't be that say an actual bike will do everything that bike will do. Puss all the things it won't.

Now you understand how I see it. In reality most martial arts schools are probably like the bike with the lady on it. It's functional bike, but the only way that it will be functional is if you take it off the stand and apply the system for functional use. Unfortunately most martial arts schools keep the bike on the stand, what makes it worst is that the bike is handed down generations. With each teacher saying that it's a functional bike. Then after 3 generations past, no one takes the bike off the stand by the 6th generation, someone says. Oh my systems have stories about how my teacher rode this bike all over china and defeat many bike riders. So they get on the bike while it's still on the stand and they pedal hard thinking that they are actually learning the functional parts of that bike.

What we end up with are people puffing out their chest about how hard they train that on that bike, and how they are going to beat other people who ride bikes. They bring the bike, with stand to the starting line on a hot sunny day and lose badly. So they make up excuses as to why they lost. It was too hot, or the sun was in my eyes.

The problem is they never realized none of that training matters unless they take it off the stand and actually ride the bike. And train for function.

Now that other bike with no wheels. Technically we couldn't even call it a bicycle. It will never ride all over China or even to the next room lol. That system is broken and non functional for riding around.

 

[JowGaWolf]

there are flow roll systems of BJJ where you can get your really real belts. And not spar. They are designed for people too precious to roll or something.

I personally think they short change the students by selling the name and not providing the service.

They are probably giving students exactly what the want which is why they have students in the first place. People like you probably wouldn't train there. I wouldn't. I really like working hard and seeing the results and feeling the joy and pride of not giving up. The belt not only represents the skill level it represents the work one had to do to get to that point. But that's just me.

 

[drop bear]

Now you understand how I see it. In reality most martial arts schools are probably like the bike with the lady on it. It's functional bike, but the only way that it will be functional is if you take it off the stand and apply the system for functional use. Unfortunately most martial arts schools keep the bike on the stand, what makes it worst is that the bike is handed down generations. With each teacher saying that it's a functional bike. Then after 3 generations past, no one takes the bike off the stand by the 6th generation, someone says. Oh my systems have stories about how my teacher rode this bike all over china and defeat many bike riders. So they get on the bike while it's still on the stand and they pedal hard thinking that they are actually learning the functional parts of that bike.

What we end up with are people puffing out their chest about how hard they train that on that bike, and how they are going to beat other people who ride bikes. They bring the bike, with stand to the starting line on a hot sunny day and lose badly. So they make up excuses as to why they lost. It was too hot, or the sun was in my eyes.

The problem is they never realized none of that training matters unless they take it off the stand and actually ride the bike. And train for function.

Now that other bike with no wheels. Technically we couldn't even call it a bicycle. It will never ride all over China or even to the next room lol. That system is broken and non functional for riding around.

So we have two bikes. Like we have two martial arts systems.

Now if we removed any bias. Or preconceived ideas of what a working bike looks like.

How do we know which bike or which martial arts is functional?

 

[drop bear]

It's not confusing. You just have to think about it. If I tell you the answer then you will resist the truth due to your bias and own perceptions of how you see things. If you think about it and come to the answer yourself then you will see the truth without me having to tell you.


See.. and you say it was confusing. You came up with the answer and I didn't have to tell you.

We know what a bike does. Nobody is deliberately muddying the waters.

So we are walking in to this with preconceived ideas. But those preconceptions are justified. We can look at two bikes and just tell.

People are not equipped to just tell in regards to martial arts for the most part.

 

[drop bear]

They are probably giving students exactly what the want which is why they have students in the first place. People like you probably wouldn't train there. I wouldn't. I really like working hard and seeing the results and feeling the joy and pride of not giving up. The belt not only represents the skill level it represents the work one had to do to get to that point. But that's just me.

Yeah. Sort of?

I think there is a lot of convincing people that what they get is what they wanted.

Which is basically how marketing works.