Train TMA but fight like kickboxer

[Kung Fu Wang]

you are training for "the street"

A: My dear, could you pick up some milk from the store?
B: It's my time to train my "street fight". I'm not sure I will come home alive.

IMO, the "street fight" training can be dangerous.

 

[Steve]

You guys are so street.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Whatever man, I’m over it.

Really Steve? I had thought we could build a rapport and respect each other. I guess I was wrong again.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You guys are so street.

I’m not sure we have the same definition. I respect your opinion Steve.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

yeah, but if you pull out your knife, I'll pull out my bazooka, and I will have more friends than you, and they will all be highly trained ninja. If this is a battle of creative writing, I feel really, really well prepared to invent something more extreme than you. Come at me... I type 85 words per minute and am fully caffeinated.

Doesn't have much to do with reality, but it's still fun to make things up, as you clearly know.




You didn't? You're words say no... but they also say yes.


I mean, this is the entirety of your post. I highlighted the key phrase, which is "You cant [sic] train for street fights." It literally comes after you say, "That's my point," which is how I know that it's your point.

That said, I'm fine letting it drop.

Laughing at me afterwards is not letting it drop. It’s literally insulting me. Thanks. I appreciate your attempt at being sincere.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You guys are so street.

One MA instructor had a MA school in Rio de Janeiro. During the weekend, he would take his students to the street to train street fight. His student would pinch on a girl's butts and then fought her boyfriend. They then moved on to another street.

 

[Flying Crane]

I can't tell from your responses if you actually got the point drop bear was making or not, so I figure I'll clarify for anyone who might be confused by his writing style.

Drop bear isn't actually suggesting that there is anything magical about street fights. He's sarcastically pointing out what he sees as the contradiction between the following points which are often made by the same people:

1. Street fights are inherently more dangerous/intense/scary/chaotic/etc, than combat sports
2. Someone who is training for street fights doesn't have to put in the same degree of intense training/physical conditioning/hard sparring/etc. that combat sports athletes do.

His point is that if you say you are training for "the street" and "the street" is really that much more dangerous than the ring or the cage, then you should be training harder than a competitive boxer or MMA competitor, not less.

I actually don't find much in the point made above to get onboard with. First, I don't feel the streets are objectively all that dangerous, although there are certainly areas in particular that can be. But overall, at least for people living in much of the modern world, the chances of random violence in their normal lives, is minimal to virtually non-existent. However, the severity of such an encounter perhaps has a greater chance of a tragic outcome, even if just because someone falls over and hits their head on the concrete. One thing about combat sports is they are designed with a ruleset and referees and an environment that is meant to minimize the possibility of actual death in the ring. Those safeguards do not exist on the street, and an accidental death can happen even when the assailant did not have that intention.

The notion that one needs to train harder than a MMA champion in order to defend oneself on the street is pretty silly, to be honest. An MMA competitor is training for a fight that he knows will happen, and he knows that his opponent will be training hard for that fight, so he had better do so as well. There is a 100% chance that this fight will come about (barring unforseen interruptions/delays, like Covid or the flu or a back spasm or food poisoning, or whatever). So of course it makes sense to train hard for this fight. How much time does a successful mma fellow put into training, if he gets into the middle or upper levels of the sport? 6-8 hours a day? plus working with a nutritionist and whatnot. It is a full-time job, at that level. And I cannot believe that the highest intesity of the training lasts for longer than a certain period of time in the workup to the match. That kind of intensity cannot be sustained indefinitely. Presenting this argument even shrouded in the cloak of sarcasm, is being dishonest in the debate. But, whatever.

Tony, I like your analogy that you added below. It makes sense, I think particularly that your assailant is far more likely to be in the non-to-low level of skill. That has the ring of truth to it, but is not meant to negate the fact that even an unskilled enemy can be very dangerous.

But at any rate, the notion that one needs to make training into a second full-time job and indefinitely sustain a high intensity of training in order to prepare for an unlikely event, is ridiculous on its face and would just breed paranoia if someone actually tried to go down that road. Who wants that in their life? I guess we all decide for ourselves the level of paranoia to which we will subscribe. That level just ain't worth it. No thanks.

My view is slightly different. I wouldn't say that a given fight in "the street" is necessarily rougher than a fight in the ring or the cage. I would say that it's more random. Imagine that you decided to sign up for a "martial arts competition", but you didn't find out until the match began whether you were in the white belt division of a point karate tournament, an amateur boxing match, a high school wrestling meet, a forms competition, a professional Lethwei bout, a Dog Brothers full-contact stick fight, or a title fight against the UFC heavyweight champion. Statistically speaking, you're more likely to end up somewhere at the easier end of the spectrum, but there's always the chance of landing in a situation you are completely unprepared to handle.

 

[Steve]

Really Steve? I had thought we could build a rapport and respect each other. I guess I was wrong again.

What’s happening right now?

 

[Steve]

Laughing at me afterwards is not letting it drop. It’s literally insulting me. Thanks. I appreciate your attempt at being sincere.

I sincerely thought you were joking and was laughing with you. I have not understood your last five or so posts and really thought you were making a joke I just didn’t get. They don’t make any sense to me.

 

[Steve]

I actually don't find much in the point made above to get onboard with. First, I don't feel the streets are objectively all that dangerous, although there are certainly areas in particular that can be. But overall, at least for people living in much of the modern world, the chances of random violence in their normal lives, is minimal to virtually non-existent. However, the severity of such an encounter perhaps has a greater chance of a tragic outcome, even if just because someone falls over and hits their head on the concrete. One thing about combat sports is they are designed with a ruleset and referees and an environment that is meant to minimize the possibility of actual death in the ring. Those safeguards do not exist on the street, and an accidental death can happen even when the assailant did not have that intention.

The notion that one needs to train harder than a MMA champion in order to defend oneself on the street is pretty silly, to be honest. An MMA competitor is training for a fight that he knows will happen, and he knows that his opponent will be training hard for that fight, so he had better do so as well. There is a 100% chance that this fight will come about (barring unforseen interruptions/delays, like Covid or the flu or a back spasm or food poisoning, or whatever). So of course it makes sense to train hard for this fight. How much time does a successful mma fellow put into training, if he gets into the middle or upper levels of the sport? 6-8 hours a day? plus working with a nutritionist and whatnot. It is a full-time job, at that level. And I cannot believe that the highest intesity of the training lasts for longer than a certain period of time in the workup to the match. That kind of intensity cannot be sustained indefinitely. Presenting this argument even shrouded in the cloak of sarcasm, is being dishonest in the debate. But, whatever.

Tony, I like your analogy that you added below. It makes sense, I think particularly that your assailant is far more likely to be in the non-to-low level of skill. That has the ring of truth to it, but is not meant to negate the fact that even an unskilled enemy can be very dangerous.

But at any rate, the notion that one needs to make training into a second full-time job and indefinitely sustain a high intensity of training in order to prepare for an unlikely event, is ridiculous on its face and would just breed paranoia if someone actually tried to go down that road. Who wants that in their life? I guess we all decide for ourselves the level of paranoia to which we will subscribe. That level just ain't worth it. No thanks.

 

[Steve]

I actually don't find much in the point made above to get onboard with. First, I don't feel the streets are objectively all that dangerous, although there are certainly areas in particular that can be. But overall, at least for people living in much of the modern world, the chances of random violence in their normal lives, is minimal to virtually non-existent. However, the severity of such an encounter perhaps has a greater chance of a tragic outcome, even if just because someone falls over and hits their head on the concrete. One thing about combat sports is they are designed with a ruleset and referees and an environment that is meant to minimize the possibility of actual death in the ring. Those safeguards do not exist on the street, and an accidental death can happen even when the assailant did not have that intention.

The notion that one needs to train harder than a MMA champion in order to defend oneself on the street is pretty silly, to be honest. An MMA competitor is training for a fight that he knows will happen, and he knows that his opponent will be training hard for that fight, so he had better do so as well. There is a 100% chance that this fight will come about (barring unforseen interruptions/delays, like Covid or the flu or a back spasm or food poisoning, or whatever). So of course it makes sense to train hard for this fight. How much time does a successful mma fellow put into training, if he gets into the middle or upper levels of the sport? 6-8 hours a day? plus working with a nutritionist and whatnot. It is a full-time job, at that level. And I cannot believe that the highest intesity of the training lasts for longer than a certain period of time in the workup to the match. That kind of intensity cannot be sustained indefinitely. Presenting this argument even shrouded in the cloak of sarcasm, is being dishonest in the debate. But, whatever.

Tony, I like your analogy that you added below. It makes sense, I think particularly that your assailant is far more likely to be in the non-to-low level of skill. That has the ring of truth to it, but is not meant to negate the fact that even an unskilled enemy can be very dangerous.

But at any rate, the notion that one needs to make training into a second full-time job and indefinitely sustain a high intensity of training in order to prepare for an unlikely event, is ridiculous on its face and would just breed paranoia if someone actually tried to go down that road. Who wants that in their life? I guess we all decide for ourselves the level of paranoia to which we will subscribe. That level just ain't worth it. No thanks.

Good news. folks who train three times per week in a combat sport will develop functional skill. It doesn’t need to be a second full time job unless you have aspirations to become a pro. Yay!

 

[Martial D]

These discussions continue to perplex me.

Proponent of system a says "well sure, our system doesn't work very well or at all in sport because all the rules n stuff, but it will work much better in the street cause weapons and multiple attackers"

Ok so the logic is that despite your system not working in one vs one at all unless you can eyepoke cause...you know...eye pokes...

We should put more faith in it to work 'in the streetz' than the one that's proven to work 1 vs 1 without even needing to eye poke *gasps*

Anyway...carry on.

 

[Oily Dragon]

despite your system not working in one vs one at all

D...You had me until you said this. Again. Why rail against entire "systems"? It gets you nowhere.

All styles can work. There's no style that doesn't have at least one person out there who train it correctly including sparring and prep for competition. And by one I mean many. Are there karateka that don't spar? Sure but there are also BJJ schools that don't. Those people aren't equipped for confrontation, right?

Each art out there has it's scions and poseurs.

There isn't a style you can name that also can't also find full contact fighters in. I remember early UFC when karate of all things was said to "not work anymore".. That didn't age well. When I saw Lyoto Machida pull off a classic White Crane technique for a KO, I laughed so hard.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

These discussions continue to perplex me.

Proponent of system a says "well sure, our system doesn't work very well or at all in sport because all the rules n stuff, but it will work much better in the street cause weapons and multiple attackers"

Ok so the logic is that despite your system not working in one vs one at all unless you can eyepoke cause...you know...eye pokes...

We should put more faith in it to work 'in the streetz' than the one that's proven to work 1 vs 1 without even needing to eye poke *gasps*

Anyway...carry on.

I was looking back to see who said this, “ well sure, our system doesn’t work very well or at all in sport…” but I cant find it anywhere. Who said it and what system was it they were talking about?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Are there karateka that don't spar? Sure but there are also BJJ schools that don't. Those people aren't equipped for confrontation, right?

I have never encountered or heard of a BJJ school which doesn't include regular sparring. Such a place may exist somewhere, but they would struggle to be regarded as legitimate by the larger BJJ community.

I have encountered BJJ schools where the only regular sparring they do is pure ground grappling (no standup, takedowns, strikes, etc), at least for the lower belts. I would agree that students at such a school would be poorly prepared for a fight unless they also trained in some complementary system. Fortunately most of the schools I've seen which have this issue do offer classes in systems like Muay Thai or MMA, which gives students a chance to balance out their training.

Personally I'm not a fan of requiring students to train different arts in order to become competent fighters, so I teach my BJJ classes with a balanced blend of standup/ground and street/sport.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I was looking back to see who said this, “ well sure, our system doesn’t work very well or at all in sport…” but I cant find it anywhere. Who said it and what system was it they were talking about?

I don't know whether anyone has said that in this particular thread or not, but I think Martial D was referencing a common refrain by representatives of various styles explaining that their arts don't work in the ring/cage because all their best techniques are illegal in combat sports. I've seen this from a wide variety of stylists.

Personally, I think it might be more productive if commenters responded to specific posts and claims made in the current thread, rather than to arguments made in previous discussions.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I have never encountered or heard of a BJJ school which doesn't include regular sparring. Such a place may exist somewhere, but they would struggle to be regarded as legitimate by the larger BJJ community.

I have encountered BJJ schools where the only regular sparring they do is pure ground grappling (no standup, takedowns, strikes, etc), at least for the lower belts. I would agree that students at such a school would be poorly prepared for a fight unless they also trained in some complementary system. Fortunately most of the schools I've seen which have this issue do offer classes in systems like Muay Thai or MMA, which gives students a chance to balance out their training.

Personally I'm not a fan of requiring students to train different arts in order to become competent fighters, so I teach my BJJ classes with a balanced blend of standup/ground and street/sport.

There are actually quite a few BJJ schools giving up on the "hard sparring" aspects for obvious reasons: it's easier to get students, and a huge market for people who desire black belts. It's easy to find discussions about these places online. Think celebrities, kiddie birthday parties, and belt mills. These plague every martial art with no exceptions.

As far as legitimacy...I often feel the arts communities themselves are the worst place to find that. That's the path to lineage wars, dojo storms, and other egocentric nonsense.

The IBJJF is a cesspool of corruption, based on what I've read. But they'll be sure to tell you they are the authorita on all things BJJ.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I don't know whether anyone has said that in this particular thread or not, but I think Martial D was referencing a common refrain by representatives of various styles explaining that their arts don't work in the ring/cage because all their best techniques are illegal in combat sports. I've seen this from a wide variety of stylists.

This is definitely an issue but there are two sides to that camp, one legit and one not.

I can only use about half of what I've trained in competition, the other half is indeed illegal. But not because it's not effective, because in many cases it's a little too effective.

Neck breaking techniques exist. They work against resistance. But they're illegal because people might die. So cannot use, that's an honest statement. But Hung Ga is very effective in San Shou for a century. Punching, kicking, elbows, clinching, throwing, sweeping, limb locking all OK.

That's a much different thing than a school not sparring or competing at all because too deadly. Those people are sadly deluded.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

These discussions continue to perplex me.

Proponent of system a says "well sure, our system doesn't work very well or at all in sport because all the rules n stuff, but it will work much better in the street cause weapons and multiple attackers"

Ok so the logic is that despite your system not working in one vs one at all unless you can eyepoke cause...you know...eye pokes...

We should put more faith in it to work 'in the streetz' than the one that's proven to work 1 vs 1 without even needing to eye poke *gasps*

Anyway...carry on.

I was looking back to see who said this, “ well sure, our system doesn’t work very well or at all in sport…” but I cant find it anywhere. Who said it and what system was it they were talking about?

I don't know whether anyone has said that in this particular thread or not, but I think Martial D was referencing a common refrain by representatives of various styles explaining that their arts don't work in the ring/cage because all their best techniques are illegal in combat sports. I've seen this from a wide variety of stylists.

Personally, I think it might be more productive if commenters responded to specific posts and claims made in the current thread, rather than to arguments made in previous discussions.

I was curious and I'm a bit of a speed reader, so I went back and checked through the entire thread. The particular claim that Martial D was complaining about has not been made or even implied by anyone in this particular discussion. I have seen it made by a bunch of people in a bunch of previous conversations, but not in this one.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There are actually quite a few BJJ schools giving up on the "hard sparring" aspects for obvious reasons: it's easier to get students, and a huge market for people who desire black belts. It's easy to find discussions about these places online. Think celebrities, kiddie birthday parties, and belt mills. These plague every martial art with no exceptions.

Eh, I'm relatively tuned in to online discussions in the BJJ community and I think you may be overstating the case.

There are a small handful of BJJ instructors (actually just one that I can think of offhand, but there may be more) who have been criticized for awarding rank to celebrity actors who don't spar (or only spar with the instructor), but the school itself still has plenty of regular sparring. It's just the celebrity paying for expensive private lessons who doesn't spar.

All the kids classes I've encountered have included sparring, but once you get down to the really younger ages then more of it may be (appropriately) games for developing attributes.

Belt mills? We may get there in BJJ eventually, but I wouldn't consider it an issue yet. I've never heard of a place where you can just show up, pay your gym fees for a couple of years and get a black belt. I've occasionally seen accusations that someone was awarded a rank higher than they deserved based on their skill level. Even if that was true, inevitably the person involved had been training and sparring for quite a few years.

Heck, when I got my black belt I felt like I was unqualified and the worst black belt I knew - and I had been training BJJ (including regular sparring) for 15 years.

The IBJJF is a cesspool of corruption, based on what I've read. But they'll be sure to tell you they are the authorita on all things BJJ.

The rumors of corruption may be true. At the very least it's an organization primarily devoted to making money and I don't have any particular use for it or association with it. However they definitely are not an influence towards schools giving up on sparring or becoming belt factories. For one thing, their primary road to money and influence is via sponsoring some of the most prestigious tournaments. If students don't spar, they won't compete. If they don't compete in IBJJF tournaments, then the students and their instructors don't have to pay expensive IBJJF belt registration fees. For another thing, the IBJJF does set minimum time in grade for rank promotions, which mitigates against people wanting quick ranks.