Train TMA but fight like kickboxer

[Unkogami]

This is the fastest way to demoralize a new student. Bait gets eaten and the stuff that's left is clearly damaged and not whole.

Maybe this generation of student.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

D...You had me until you said this. Again. Why rail against entire "systems"? It gets you nowhere.

All styles can work. There's no style that doesn't have at least one person out there who train it correctly including sparring and prep for competition. And by one I mean many. Are there karateka that don't spar? Sure but there are also BJJ schools that don't. Those people aren't equipped for confrontation, right?

Each art out there has it's scions and poseurs.

There isn't a style you can name that also can't also find full contact fighters in. I remember early UFC when karate of all things was said to "not work anymore".. That didn't age well. When I saw Lyoto Machida pull off a classic White Crane technique for a KO, I laughed so hard.

I don't know if this was @Martial D's intent, but when I say "system" that usually refers to the methodology of training and developing skill, whereas "style" refers to the organized principles (which often includes some tradition of how it is trained). The distinction makes your take and his very different, without being necessarily in conflict.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the system is the bicycle then does the bicycle not work because the student doesn't train to use it?
If the system is Kung Fu then does Kung Fu not work because the student doesn't train to use it?

View attachment 28109

I think the analogy is in that picture. That bike (the "style") is in a system that keeps it from moving. It's ineffective as transport in that system. Change the system (put it on the street without the other bits) and the bike functions as transport.

So, in DB's post, he's referring to the delivery system for training BJJ (the style), and saying that system doesn't work for developing fighters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't particularly care for this method of teaching, but it's important to note that these schools do incorporate plenty of regular sparring once the student reaches blue belt. (Or two stripe white belt, or completed a basics class, or whatever the requirement is for that school.) From what I've been able to determine regarding these schools, students can usually start sparring within 3-9 months.

The idea behind that approach is that they want students to have a foundation of basic techniques to work with when they start sparring, rather than just throwing them to the sharks before they have any idea of what to do and seeing who sticks around afterwards. I understand the sentiment, but in my experience I can get just about any student to spar safely and productively in a much shorter period of time without using them as shark bait.

I'm wondering if folks using this method maybe came through a system where new students were used as shark bait. That would explain their approach. If it were binary (shark bait or delay to sparring), I'd side with them. Of course, it's not binary, and there are many other options.

I saw the same issue in NGA. Schools that used sparring (from what I saw, that was a minority) usually gated it behind a rank (say, green belt, which would be at least a couple of years in). And then it was generally up to the participants to decide their limits. I put brand new students into sparring almost immediately, in a very limited structure, where they can get used to the chaos and start developing some live skills.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe this generation of student.

Any generation. If you take someone and don't let them develop skill before testing it - just throw them in and have folks trash them - most will decide they simply can't do that thing. A few will persist. Those few are likely either pigheaded (and resilient) enough to succeed in that system, or foolish enough to not realize they aren't being trained well. This kind of approach will at best develop bad habits that have to later be corrected.

A gradual entry to sparring - starting with a platform where they have at least some chance of at least partial success - allows them to see where they stand and apply what they are learning.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So we have two bikes. Like we have two martial arts systems.

Yes. Functional and Non-Functional. Where functional = designed to be used for fighting.

Now if we removed any bias. Or preconceived ideas of what a working bike looks like.

How do we know which bike or which martial arts is functional?

All functional systems will share common elements. All functional bikes share common elements. We will first identify the main function: To move from A to B. We know at least one bike that we can use as a guide. From there we can break it apart to see what elements of that bike to move from A to B.

So with martial arts, we simply do the same. Pick a system that can be used for fighting. It can be any empty hand system that you know works 100% and is uses in fighting. "I don't consider MMA as a system" because there's no one mix of systems that defined it. So pick a system that is defined we can pick more than one if need, but for now just use one.

After you have that fighting system, break it apart to see what makes it work. I will use boxing since it has the fewest pieces.
1.Footwork
- Evasive footwork what does it look like, why does it look that way, and how does it help
- Offensive footwork
- Defensive footwork


Once you have part that you want to take a look at then compare it to the system in question

Jow Ga
- uses shuffling steps. Does boxing use shuffling steps.

If Jow Ga shuffle steps: "is this the functional use of the shuffle step or the training of shuffling steps." Is this the "bike on the stand" or the "bike on the road." Remember the application of the shuffle should look similar to what we see in boxing. It may not look exactly the same but it will definitely look similar.

 

[JowGaWolf]

People are not equipped to just tell in regards to martial arts for the most part.

This is true. But comparing systems training can make it easier to weed out the nonsense.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah. Sort of?

I think there is a lot of convincing people that what they get is what they wanted.

Which is basically how marketing works.

Yeah. Marketing is another problem even for working systems. Marketing is almost like a moral representation of a business. If a business is willing to deceive people in their marketing, then they will probably do the same in other things.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Maybe this generation of student.

Oh definitely this generation. This generation has had to grow up with a lot of the challenges people in their 40s+. Had to grow up with. In some cases they learned some really bad things like " Everyone is a winner" or participation awards.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I remember that. I really liked watching Machida.

I've never seen or heard of a BJJ school that doesn't roll. I can't imagine it. Might be some that never start from stand up, but I've never seen that either.

Had a discussion with a gal coworker a long time ago. She was a brown belt in Karate, about to be tested for her first Dan. I forget which style her school was. I was teaching American Karate at the time. She seemed to know everything, so I asked her how much sparring they did.

She told me she had never sparred. She then went on to say "I've never actually seen sparring."

I was truly at a loss for words. I just politely nodded from that point.

I've always said there were two types of martial artist, scholars and warriors. Lots of scholarships out there. They are important to speading the knowledge but the art of fighting is important to keeping the scholarship knowledge accurate and up to date.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Any generation. If you take someone and don't let them develop skill before testing it - just throw them in and have folks trash them - most will decide they simply can't do that thing. A few will persist. Those few are likely either pigheaded (and resilient) enough to succeed in that system,

This only happens if they have the mentality to push through when things are brutal. Typically we learn this through everyday life, but these days there are a lot of things of comfort that didn't exist when we're kids. We can't even wait without picking up a mobile phone lol.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh definitely this generation. This generation has had to grow up with a lot of the challenges people in their 40s+. Had to grow up with. In some cases they learned some really bad things like " Everyone is a winner" or participation awards.

I would say that the current generation is also more inclined to recognize an abusive relationship when they see it, and be unwilling to tolerate it. Some martial arts schools really are little more than an abusive relationship. Some people manage to thrive in that scenario. They are usually the kind of person I don’t want to be around. But that is just me. Ones mileage may vary.

 

[drop bear]

This is true. But comparing systems training can make it easier to weed out the nonsense.

Yeah. Which us back to muay Thai probably turns out fighters and kung fu probably doesn't. Generally.

There are exemptions. But for a general perception that is pretty much on point

 

[drop bear]

Yes. Functional and Non-Functional. Where functional = designed to be used for fighting.


All functional systems will share common elements. All functional bikes share common elements. We will first identify the main function: To move from A to B. We know at least one bike that we can use as a guide. From there we can break it apart to see what elements of that bike to move from A to B.

So with martial arts, we simply do the same. Pick a system that can be used for fighting. It can be any empty hand system that you know works 100% and is uses in fighting. "I don't consider MMA as a system" because there's no one mix of systems that defined it. So pick a system that is defined we can pick more than one if need, but for now just use one.

After you have that fighting system, break it apart to see what makes it work. I will use boxing since it has the fewest pieces.
1.Footwork
- Evasive footwork what does it look like, why does it look that way, and how does it help
- Offensive footwork
- Defensive footwork


Once you have part that you want to take a look at then compare it to the system in question

Jow Ga
- uses shuffling steps. Does boxing use shuffling steps.

If Jow Ga shuffle steps: "is this the functional use of the shuffle step or the training of shuffling steps." Is this the "bike on the stand" or the "bike on the road." Remember the application of the shuffle should look similar to what we see in boxing. It may not look exactly the same but it will definitely look similar.

Seriously over complicated.

Functional bike.

Functional martial art.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Yeah. Which us back to muay Thai probably turns out fighters and kung fu probably doesn't. Generally.

There are exemptions. But for a general perception that is pretty much on point

It's probably more a matter of kung fu is useful in a lot of areas: health, fitness, longevity, mental health, and fighting. There's a lot of variety in TMAs in general. Philosophy most of all. People can pick and choose what they want. Sometimes they get sold a bridge, sometimes they find real treasure.

Muay Thai is very specific to kickboxing alone, and doesn't have nearly as many practicioners. Neither does San Shou, really because that is the hardest part of traditional kung fu training. That said, there are networks of these people out there. There are pro UFC fighters, federations of amateurs, etc.

But also a lot of people who think they train to fight without san da. That's too bad, because those people seem to love making YouTube videos.

So some end up with as you said a perception bias. I think it's just because there is a firehose of BAD TMA online. It's a signal vs. noise problem.

 

[drop bear]

It's probably more a matter of kung fu is useful in a lot of areas: health, fitness, longevity, mental health, and fighting. There's a lot of variety in TMAs in general. Philosophy most of all. People can pick and choose what they want. Sometimes they get sold a bridge, sometimes they find real treasure.

Muay Thai is very specific to kickboxing alone, and doesn't have nearly as many practicioners. Neither does San Shou, really because that is the hardest part of traditional kung fu training. That said, there are networks of these people out there. There are pro UFC fighters, federations of amateurs, etc.

So some end up with as you said a perception bias. I think it's just because there is a firehouse of BAD TMA online. It's a signal vs. noise problem.

The noise is created by the whole all martial arts is useful crowd.

I think this is why combat sports try to separate themselves from these theoretical arts. So they are not confused.

I think if an art is useful in other areas they need to make more of a case for it than not being good at fighting.

I mean you can be a bad fighter and also a screaming duche bag.

 

[drop bear]

It's probably more a matter of kung fu is useful in a lot of areas: health, fitness, longevity, mental health, and fighting. There's a lot of variety in TMAs in general. Philosophy most of all. People can pick and choose what they want. Sometimes they get sold a bridge, sometimes they find real treasure.

By the way. An interesting idea I picked up from doing rounds with some fighters on the weekend is the idea of learning to be gentle.

In that in the heat of battle I am still trying to protect and preserve the guy I am basically beating up.

And as far as a spiritual development point of view I think that is an important aspect.

In the middle of this people are showing care for their fellow human being.

 

[Oily Dragon]

By the way. An interesting idea I picked up from doing rounds with some fighters on the weekend is the idea of learning to be gentle.

In that in the heat of battle I am still trying to protect and preserve the guy I am basically beating up.

And as far as a spiritual development point of view I think that is an important aspect.

In the middle of this people are showing care for their fellow human being.

I am good friends with all the people I've allowed to beat me up. That's how I measure my personal martial arts success.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The noise is created by the whole all martial arts is useful crowd.

I think this is why combat sports try to separate themselves from these theoretical arts. So they are not confused.

I think if an art is useful in other areas they need to make more of a case for it than not being good at fighting.

I mean you can be a bad fighter and also a screaming duche bag.

Do combat sports really try to separate themselves? I don't think that's true, or that it's a problem they even have to deal with. Real combat skill has always been determined in the field, whatever that is. That's the trouble with "theoretical", it's hard to name any art that someone somewhere with serious credibility is willing to dismiss. Even Royce Gracie picked up Thai Boxing, his GJJ wasn't enough to compete for long. Cung Le wrote a whole book on San Shou, which shows how small the difference between eastern and western styles really are, end of day. Ramsey Dewey and Tai Chi.

Karate is another a great example. Huge variety. There is a whole spectrum from non sparring karate forms schools, but also the entirety of Kyokushin similar schools.

You walk into a San Shou bout without real kung training (falls and throws and all), you're gonna have a bad day. But that goes for any real combat sport, boxing, wrestling, or any hybrid. Honestly I can't think of many pro MMA fighters who dismiss TMA out of hand. That was more of a late 90s thing.

 

[drop bear]

Do combat sports really try to separate themselves? I don't think that's true, or that it's a problem they even have to deal with. Real combat skill has always been determined in the field, whatever that is. That's the trouble with "theoretical", it's hard to name any art that someone somewhere with serious credibility is willing to dismiss. Even Royce Gracie picked up Thai Boxing, his GJJ wasn't enough to compete for long. Cung Le wrote a whole book on San Shou, which shows how small the difference between eastern and western styles really are, end of day. Ramsey Dewey and Tai Chi.

Karate is another a great example. Huge variety. There is a whole spectrum from non sparring karate forms schools, but also the entirety of Kyokushin similar schools.

You walk into a San Shou bout without real kung training (falls and throws and all), you're gonna have a bad day. But that goes for any real combat sport, boxing, wrestling, or any hybrid. Honestly I can't think of many pro MMA fighters who dismiss TMA out of hand. That was more of a late 90s thing.

Ramsay Dewey was going to fight Master Wong. To separate himself from theoretical arts.