So an interesting thing happened to me today...

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you truly control his leg, you control a percentage of his entire body - including his upper body.

If you control both of your opponent's legs, he will be down.

If you control only one of your opponent's legs,

- he can extend his leg between your legs (into your groin),
- hook his inner edge behind your upper leg,
- control both of your shoulders to prevent you from getting closer.

He can hop with his single leg and look for your weakness. His body will glue on your body. If you move your right leg, he will attack your left leg. If you move your left leg, he will attack your right leg. The interested fighting just start from there.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You may have to do the drop knee version. Which will keep your back a bit straighter.

What you have just mentioned moves interestingly into safe lifting.

All well and good. But a poster does not condition the body to have the flexibility to do those movements properly.

that chart looks like what I try to make happen to people who are trying to take me down. I figure if I can get them to hurt their back, then I'll be in the clear lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you control both of your opponent's legs, he will be down.

If you control only one of your opponent's legs,

- he can extend his leg between your legs (into your groin),
- hook his inner edge behind your upper leg,
- control both of your shoulders to prevent you from getting closer.

He can hop with his single leg and look for your weakness. His body will glue on your body. If you move your right leg, he will attack your left leg. If you move your left leg, he will attack your right leg. The interested fighting just start from there.

I'm not sure if you notice but it's not just the leg in that video. The person trying to lift is in a weak position for lifting. If you refer to the chart that Drop Bear posted, you'll see that he looks like the 3rd person from the left bending over trying to lift the box.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not sure if you notice but it's not just the leg in that video. The person trying to lift is in a weak position for lifting. If you refer to the chart that Drop Bear posted, you'll see that he looks like the 3rd person from the left bending over trying to lift the box.

This is why I don't like "single leg" that you use both arms to get your opponent's leading leg. It's easier for your opponent to put you into that disadvantage position.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you control both of your opponent's legs, he will be down.

If you control only one of your opponent's legs,

- he can extend his leg between your legs (into your groin),
- hook his inner edge behind your upper leg,
- control both of your shoulders to prevent you from getting closer.

He can hop with his single leg and look for your weakness. His body will glue on your body. If you move your right leg, he will attack your left leg. If you move your left leg, he will attack your right leg. The interested fighting just start from there.

If he can do either of those first two with the "controlled" leg, it's not controlled. If he does it with the other, you didn't use the control. The third, he shouldn't have leverage for if you actually have control of his leg (rather than just restraint).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If he can do either of those first two with the "controlled" leg, it's not controlled. If he does it with the other, you didn't use the control. The third, he shouldn't have leverage for if you actually have control of his leg (rather than just restraint).

You have 2 arms and your opponent also has 2 arms. If you and your opponent are on the same skill level, when you use both arms to control your opponent's leading leg, you don't have any arm left to deal with his arms. Both of his hands can control your body wherever he wants to. You can't do anything about it.

This is why I believe the "under hook" and "over hook" are superior wrestling skill. When you use it, you can control both of your opponent's arms. When your arms and your opponent's arms are tangled, whoever has the best "leg skill" will win.

 

[drop bear]

This is why I don't like "single leg" that you use both arms to get your opponent's leading leg. It's easier for your opponent to put you into that disadvantage position.

Depends if your leg is forwards.

 

[JR 137]

ninjushiho, or,something close to that spelling

Not to be argumentative, but I don't see any "ducking" in this video, and he bends further than anyone in any other video I've seen. Is this the kata you're referring to?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You have 2 arms and your opponent also has 2 arms. If you and your opponent are on the same skill level, when you use both arms to control your opponent's leading leg, you don't have any arm left to deal with his arms. Both of his hands can control your body wherever he wants to. You can't do anything about it.

This is why I believe the "under hook" and "over hook" are superior wrestling skill. When you use it, you can control both of your opponent's arms. When your arms and your opponent's arms are tangled, whoever has the best "leg skill" will win.

That's what happens if you don't get control - that was my point. If you actually get control of the leg (again, not just restraint), then there's a lot you can do to limit his responses, because he should already be falling. Note that when I say "control", that means to the extent that it is no longer supporting his body properly - you control his structure through that leg. If you control the leg only so far as the hip (not having any transitive control to the body), then I refer to that as "restraint", which is only partial control.

 

[jobo]

Not to be argumentative, but I don't see any "ducking" in this video, and he bends further than anyone in any other video I've seen. Is this the kata you're referring to?

29 seconds

 

[JR 137]

29 seconds

I don't know the kata, and it's not done in either school I've been at. But just going by general kata application knowledge, I wouldn't interpret that movement as ducking. I view it more as a lean in.

Everyone's got a different interpretation. That's the art of karate IMO; a movement can mean different things to different people. It can be whatever one wants/needs it to be, whenever they want/need it to be. There's no right or wrong, only better or worse interpretation IMO.

 

[JowGaWolf]

29 seconds

I thought that was a groin strike and a redirect / block. For example, someone is doing a haymaker. The upper arm deals with the haymaker while at the same time, the lower arm strikes the groin. I've seen other's do it as a double palm strike. One to the face and one to the groin.

this is the video that I watched. The move is at :36. He doesn't tray to wrap his arm. Instead he turns and deflect a low kick or low punch and strikes high. Int the video that JR 137 showed he turns and deflects a high punch and strikes high. Had these guys would have done a basic Jow Ga punch had they closed the second fist instead of using a knife hand.

After seeing this video I now see the wrap at the 4:37 mark. I'm don't train in this system so this is just an uneducated opinion based on the little bit of martial arts that I know. I wouldn't try to use it as the way he shows it in the video. If I'm going to redirect a hand like that, then I wouldn't bother trying to grab it. I would simply redirect and move forward with a double palm strike, one at the face and the other towards the lower abdomen or groin. In the kata both hands go out at the same time. When I look at the kata I just assume that they are fighting multiple people

This is more of what I had in mind and it actually makes more sense to me from a Jow Ga perspective. You can see the technique in question at 2:19. The wrap around the arm is more of a redirect than a wrap. I'm not saying that one way is correct and the other way is wrong because techniques often have more than one application. This particular application may be a higher % for you

 

[Gerry Seymour]

29 seconds

That's an interesting interpretation of that movement. I'll be interested in seeing what those with some experience in that kata think.

 

[DaveB]

I thought that was a groin strike and a redirect / block. For example, someone is doing a haymaker. The upper arm deals with the haymaker while at the same time, the lower arm strikes the groin. I've seen other's do it as a double palm strike. One to the face and one to the groin.

this is the video that I watched. The move is at :36. He doesn't tray to wrap his arm. Instead he turns and deflect a low kick or low punch and strikes high. Int the video that JR 137 showed he turns and deflects a high punch and strikes high. Had these guys would have done a basic Jow Ga punch had they closed the second fist instead of using a knife hand.

After seeing this video I now see the wrap at the 4:37 mark. I'm don't train in this system so this is just an uneducated opinion based on the little bit of martial arts that I know. I wouldn't try to use it as the way he shows it in the video. If I'm going to redirect a hand like that, then I wouldn't bother trying to grab it. I would simply redirect and move forward with a double palm strike, one at the face and the other towards the lower abdomen or groin. In the kata both hands go out at the same time. When I look at the kata I just assume that they are fighting multiple people

This is more of what I had in mind and it actually makes more sense to me from a Jow Ga perspective. You can see the technique in question at 2:19. The wrap around the arm is more of a redirect than a wrap. I'm not saying that one way is correct and the other way is wrong because techniques often have more than one application. This particular application may be a higher % for you

The application I go with is somewhere between these 2 videos.

Take Kenneth Funakoshi's application but from the outside rather than the inside, and while you can strike with both arms it works just as well to just position your hands by the head and thigh for the subsequent wheel throw.

If you do want to apply it percussively you use the lean as a slip not a duck, so your body motion throws weight into the strike while taking you offline.

The part of Jobo's description I think is low % is the neck wrap. If it was really so straightforward to take control of an adversary mma would look a lot different.
But slipping punches is basic ma.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The application I go with is somewhere between these 2 videos.

Take Kenneth Funakoshi's application but from the outside rather than the inside, and while you can strike with both arms it works just as well to just position your hands by the head and thigh for the subsequent wheel throw.

If you do want to apply it percussively you use the lean as a slip not a duck, so your body motion throws weight into the strike while taking you offline.

The part of Jobo's description I think is low % is the neck wrap. If it was really so straightforward to take control of an adversary mma would look a lot different.
But slipping punches is basic ma.

Good post. A thought on your last paragraph: against a skilled opponent, most things are relatively low percentage. Simple, reliable takedowns like single-legs and double-legs drop their % when used on someone skilled at using and defending them.

 

[DaveB]

Good post. A thought on your last paragraph: against a skilled opponent, most things are relatively low percentage. Simple, reliable takedowns like single-legs and double-legs drop their % when used on someone skilled at using and defending them.

I had also meant to add that the percussive application is not really supported in this kata. It's there, but the the following techniques don't build on the strikes.

Bassai dai on the other hand demonstrates the yama zuki with a number of follow-up techniques that take you out of your lean and teach you about building combinations.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A thought on your last paragraph: against a skilled opponent, most things are relatively low percentage.

Low % is more based on the practitioner's ability and not so much the opponent. A skilled opponent is more likely to make a technique a low occurrence % more so than a low success percentage. A skilled opponent will usually have a defense that decreased the opportunity for the martial artist to use certain techniques.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Low % is more based on the practitioner's ability and not so much the opponent. A skilled opponent is more likely to make a technique a low occurrence % more so than a low success percentage. A skilled opponent will usually have a defense that decreased the opportunity for the martial artist to use certain techniques.

There's that side, too. But, for instance, if you look at high-level Judo competition (the Olympics, for instance), you'll see them attempt several throws and have to abandon them immediately. They thought the throw might be available, but it wasn't. That's what I mean by a lower %. The difference between your statement and mine is a matter of whether you count only the times it is actually attempted, or all the times it might have been. With a beginning student, at any given moment, my chances of landing a punch (or a throw/takedown) is much higher than if, for instance, I was sparring you, Tony, DB, etc. One measure of my skill is how often I recognize that and make a better choice (including waiting for something useful to be available).

 

[JowGaWolf]

They thought the throw might be available, but it wasn't.

yeah this is definitely different from what I'm thinking. I don't count this because this same result can be caused by baiting which makes your opponent think that they have something that really isn't there. As for punching me and Tony, your technique would still be a high percentage technique even if we are good at evading your punch. For example, You throw a jab with your left hand forward and I'm able to avoid it most of the time. After failing, you switch and jab with your right hand forward and as a result you are able to hit me more. The technique is the same technique for both scenarios. The only difference is you did better with one arm than the other, so the Jab is still a high %. We can make this scenario more complicated. Let's say Tony avoids both of your jabs with no problem. Then you change it up on him. You look at his stomach and jab him in his face and you mix up what you do before you throw the Jab. The Jab is still the same technique that failed you previously. But now that you changed what you do before you throw the jab, you are able to land more. It's the same technique.

In your example of the Judo throw. This might be the same thing where the technique is reliable, but because of your opponent's understanding that you know it and can use it (meaning he will try to prevent you from using it), the approach to being successful to with the technique may be to do something different before actually doing the technique. The more experienced your opponent is the better your opponent will be at not letting you have your way. It doesn't mean that the technique itself is a low percentage technique. It just means you many have to "wrap it up in peanut butter and bread" before you feed your opponent that technique.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There's that side, too. But, for instance, if you look at high-level Judo competition (the Olympics, for instance), you'll see them attempt several throws and have to abandon them immediately. They thought the throw might be available, but it wasn't. That's what I mean by a lower %. The difference between your statement and mine is a matter of whether you count only the times it is actually attempted, or all the times it might have been. With a beginning student, at any given moment, my chances of landing a punch (or a throw/takedown) is much higher than if, for instance, I was sparring you, Tony, DB, etc. One measure of my skill is how often I recognize that and make a better choice (including waiting for something useful to be available).

For me a low percentage technique is one that has a very small chance of being successful period. Me kicking my opponent in the face while doing a backflip would be something that is low percentage no matter the skill level of the opponent.
Stuff like this. Low Percentage.