a new twist on MMA/Sport vs. TMA/Street

[gusano]

Disco wrote "Gusano, when you make the statement that,..........................
"MMA is a competitive "sport" but it is still the closest thing to a "real fight" you are going to get. TMA practitioners lack of success in this "sport" are proof of the inadequacies that exist in TMA as applied to actual "self defense"/FIGHTING!", you forget a major stipulation. -----RULES!........
There are no rules in true street fighting/self defense. Ask your self this question. When you sparred the MMA guy who took you down at will, did you see anything that you could have done to him to free yourself, but you didn't because you did not want to seriously hurt/harm him?"

Disco, I understand this reasoning however, it is a two way street. The same person who was twisting me into a pretzel could use these same "illegal" techniques if he wanted to as well. I have grappled some people who, after having their **** handed to them to the point of embarrassment, clung to the excuse that, "Well, if there was punching and kicking involved, it would be a different story". Well, you know what? They are right! It WOULD be a little different...I would still twist them up at will, only I'd be punching and kicking them too! People can debate this until the end of time but you have to step up and get on the mat or in the ring to find out. If a "striker" wants to fight, NO PROBLEM, but there is no tapping! Thats the problem with the "strikers" who want to challenge grapplers. They reason, "Well, I'll throw everything I have and try to knock him out and if he gets me, I'll just tap".
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, thats not how it works! Does the Grappler get to tap just before the strike connects and KO's him? No, of course not! So, if and when the "striker" gets "caught" he can forget about tapping and go to sleep too!
There is only ONE way to find out as I stated above. It is indeed true that a students ability to fight is more than just the techniques he has been taught but the manner in which they are instilled. MMA's and grapplers alike have an advantage because they "compete in sports" that don't allow these "dangerous" techniques, which in turn allows them to train at FULL FORCE. The TMA's practice their "deadly", "dangerous" moves in forms and katas with no resistance whatsoever. For those TMA schools who actually do live sparring, I applaud you. I'm not trying to paint too broad a stroke by lumping everyone into two different sides.

OCKid wrote:
"I can only say this. I have a friend and former student who was on the 3rd APC to cross the iraqi border. He was a marine sniper assigned to force Recon. He fought hand to hand in downtown Bagdad. He said It was his (TMA) training that he used to survive. mind you in down town bagdad there are no cages with referees, no time limits, there are no holds and techniques that are not allowed, there are no styles or systems. You only survive or die. He survived. He told me there are some Iraqis he fought that didnt."

I spent 7 years in the Marine Corps and have heard many a sea story. No offense, but I think your friend is full of *****.

 

[Disco]

What empirical evidence do you have that you can stop a person with your hands? If you don't at least occasionally engage a resisting human with force significant enough to drop them in their tracks, you really have no idea what you are capable of...

True to a certain level. Where is the line drawn in training where you can drop them in their tracks, without doing or at the least the possibility of doing serious damage?
What empirical evidence? - Since you make it a tangible point of contention, 40yrs of training + 20 in LE.

And if you were to examine police statistics (which has been done in a number of articles in the popular MA ragazines; I just attended a seminar with a LEO/CO presenter, and I think you'd be surprised at what happens outside of the dojo world),

Not really, see above. I'll give you a statistic from the Justice Department from over 10 yrs ago. They stated that if a person was involved in a robbery or an assualt, they stood a 50/50 chance of being killed or seriously injured. One would assume that those percentages have increased since then. So just what, if anything does that statistic say to people? To me it says don't believe statistics, they can be easily manipulated to fit someone's agenda. In reality, how could I dispute what the government says?
Something else that may be relevent to our discussion is, all the police shows on TV. Cameras catching assualts and attempted robberies all show face to face encounters. Fights erupting in the prison yards, road rage incidents that escalate into assualts and so on, all seem to contradict your assertions. Of all the many reports I've filled out over the years involving assualts, muggings and robberies, the vast majority were face to face or from the side, still being viewed by the victim.
From your own words,... Typically it is a high, hard, right hook, and the fight ends up with both combatants on the ground at some point. Sounds very much to me that both parties are facing each other..............

I do agree that you fight like you train. But, you must have the heart to fight, regardless of how you train or fight. Everybody is gifted in that respect.

So the bottom line is this...... You train in the mindset that you are confident in and I will do the same and hopefully we will be allowed to continue thru life without having to use our skills outside of the dojo again. :asian:

 

[OC Kid]

Disco wrote "Gusano, when you make the statement that,..........................
"MMA is a competitive "sport" but it is still the closest thing to a "real fight" you are going to get. TMA practitioners lack of success in this "sport" are proof of the inadequacies that exist in TMA as applied to actual "self defense"/FIGHTING!", you forget a major stipulation. -----RULES!........
There are no rules in true street fighting/self defense. Ask your self this question. When you sparred the MMA guy who took you down at will, did you see anything that you could have done to him to free yourself, but you didn't because you did not want to seriously hurt/harm him?"

Disco, I understand this reasoning however, it is a two way street. The same person who was twisting me into a pretzel could use these same "illegal" techniques if he wanted to as well. I have grappled some people who, after having their **** handed to them to the point of embarrassment, clung to the excuse that, "Well, if there was punching and kicking involved, it would be a different story". Well, you know what? They are right! It WOULD be a little different...I would still twist them up at will, only I'd be punching and kicking them too! People can debate this until the end of time but you have to step up and get on the mat or in the ring to find out. If a "striker" wants to fight, NO PROBLEM, but there is no tapping! Thats the problem with the "strikers" who want to challenge grapplers. They reason, "Well, I'll throw everything I have and try to knock him out and if he gets me, I'll just tap".
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, thats not how it works! Does the Grappler get to tap just before the strike connects and KO's him? No, of course not! So, if and when the "striker" gets "caught" he can forget about tapping and go to sleep too!
There is only ONE way to find out as I stated above. It is indeed true that a students ability to fight is more than just the techniques he has been taught but the manner in which they are instilled. MMA's and grapplers alike have an advantage because they "compete in sports" that don't allow these "dangerous" techniques, which in turn allows them to train at FULL FORCE. The TMA's practice their "deadly", "dangerous" moves in forms and katas with no resistance whatsoever. For those TMA schools who actually do live sparring, I applaud you. I'm not trying to paint too broad a stroke by lumping everyone into two different sides.

OCKid wrote:
"I can only say this. I have a friend and former student who was on the 3rd APC to cross the iraqi border. He was a marine sniper assigned to force Recon. He fought hand to hand in downtown Bagdad. He said It was his (TMA) training that he used to survive. mind you in down town bagdad there are no cages with referees, no time limits, there are no holds and techniques that are not allowed, there are no styles or systems. You only survive or die. He survived. He told me there are some Iraqis he fought that didnt."

I spent 7 years in the Marine Corps and have heard many a sea story. No offense, but I think your friend is full of *****.

Sir, you may think what you want. i only know what he told me personally and what his family told me.. I obviously wasnt there. Im ther system in which I was ranked we did fight it was point oriented but we did fight. When we got to brown belt we started kick boxing type sparring. Through the entire training and into black belt we practice self defense techniques at full speed. If you dont block ect you will get hit, if you dont get out of the bear hug you will be thrown down ect. This is done with multiple attackerd armed and unarmed. It does depend on the TMA system. However the katas are not killer techniques. They are merely ways to practice basic stances punches ect alone. Not deadly techniques...... In fact the beauty of a kata is that most of the offensive techniques are missing. Thats why they start with a block and end with a block in the Japanese systems anyway.

 

[cfr]

Anyone have any other thoughts on the original topic???
:idunno: :idunno: :idunno: :idunno: :idunno: :idunno:

 

[cfr]

You probably never will find someone who started w/MMA training, switched to a TMA, and was happy. There are several reasons for this.

First, the motivations for practicing MMA/sport arts (fighting, competing, winning) are often different than the motivations for practicing TMA (self-improvement, fitness, self-defense),

Second, MMA/sport training usually eschews a lot of the ritual and hierachy of TMA. If you like that freedom, then you probably won't like the rigidity of most TMA's.

There are probably more reasons, but my keyboard time is limited right now.

Now that all makes alot of sense to me. I started in more of MMA for the first 6 months. I was totally into it and never doubted its effectiveness. (Im sure there was the possibility that I was just too much of a newbie to doubt anything.) Then my instuctor moved away. Been bouncing from one TMA to another since then and always wind up in this dilema. Wondering about its effectiveness. Thanks.

 

[satans.barber]

There's no harm in leaving the 'art' part in your 'martial art' as long as you know which bits you're just practicing for fun or flexibility, and which bits are your fighting moves, in my opinion.

With TKD for example, I'm not personally convinced that it's the best martial art for self defence as I think the range is too long, and from the competition I've watched I don't think TKD players are taught to raise a proper guard, however, it is a perfectly valid martial art and there's no harm in practicing it whatsoever.

The MMA fanboys that have cropped up in the last few years since Vale Tudo/Pride/UFC has risen in fame seem to have forgotten this somehow, and I question whether they are practicing 'martial arts' at all anymore.

Within martial arts there is a certain amount of tradition, etiquette, honour and decorum that should be practiced along with our skills, at some point, when all you do is basically brawl and call eachother 'f***ing n00bie pussies!' etc. all the time and make challenges left, right and centre as to who you could or could not pin to submission...you've left the martial arts and entered the WWF as far as I'm concerned!

This opinion is of course based on the MMA types that I've has dealings with, I'm sure there are plenty of MMA players out there who are decent people who know how to conduct themselves, be polite and show respect where it is due, I just sadly haven't met any yet.

Ian.

 

[OC Kid]

Im a realitivly newbie at the martial arts. I only started my training in 1983. So maybe my insight isnt as accurate as some of you here.

In the late 1970s and into the 1980s the big thing in all the mags was Bruce Lees JKD, is it the most deadly, then they talked about Ninjutsu is it the most deadly then Escima, Kali then Seagal came on the seen and Akijutsu became the most deadly, then Muay Thai, the most deadly then the UFC came about and MMA. Its all good its just the flavor of the month.

I really want to thank you guys who are bashing the TMA. I need the enlightening because I didnt know that the Chinese couldnt defend themselves as well as the Okinawans couldnt defend themselves from the Chinese/ Japanese occupation of the Samurai and the Samurai well they didnt know how to fight, before the MMA came around and neither did the ancient Thai warriors nor did the Harrwang warriors of korea know how to fight the Samurai .
it wasnt until the USA and the MMA came along did anyone really know how to defend themselves. The Yakusa well they didnt /still dont know and that for the last 1200 years or so the Martial Arts were art a sham.

 

[cfr]

Problem is, every few months my head starts talking to me. It says stuff like “lets try this under pressure”, “this wouldn’t really work”, “has anyone ever actually done this in a real fight”, etc.

I know that noyhing has been said to me directly. But just for clarification, Im sure theres tons of value in TMA. All of my statements are based on my opinions. What applies to me. What I think will work the best for me. I have never, nor will I ever, say that TMA are in any way a waste of your time. I will never say that they wont work for you. In fact, I'd like to re-phrase my above statements:

"This wouldnt really work for me". "Could I do this under pressure"? "Would I be able to do this in a real fight"?

Im sure lots of die hard TMA guys dont ever doubt its effectiveness. You know something else I just noticed, in 26 replies to my post, nobody has said "yes" to my original questions. Unless of course I misinterpreted something here. Nobody has said they started in MMA, switched to TMA, and were happy they did. Nobody has made that switch and said stuff like "what a waste MMA is" or anything like we always hear from the guys who have switched the other from TMA to MMA. It seems to me the closest we've got here is someone who dabbled in MMA. Surely someone has had this experience? It cant be totally a one way street?

 

[Trent]

I did it. I came from an American wrestling and boxing background then went through a few traditional arts. I admit, they weren't what I wanted, but gave them a chance by working to at least the equivalent of black belt level hoping to be introduced to the "real" stuff; I found out I was and wasn't enamored. Muay Thai was close, but lacked weapons and grappling skills and concepts. (No access to Krabi Krabong for the weapons.)

I'm happy where I am now. I've said it before as have others, it is the training method as well as, or more than, the combative principles of the system.

I do think you are correct, however, that the vast majority make the opposite switch, and to tell you the truth, I don't blame them.

 

[cfr]

I do think you are correct, however, that the vast majority make the opposite switch, and to tell you the truth, I don't blame them.

Out of curiosity, why dont you blame them? Why do you think, based on your experience, that more people make the opposite switch?

 

[Trent]

The same reason you and most others think so.

I'll go ahead and take the bait.

I believe due to the training methods that MMA become more functional in most situations as a general rule. There are exceptions of course, and most TMA could easily adapt more realistic training methods and maintain their classical art. In fact, I think that most have wandered down the path of least resistance and removed those aspects from the system over the years to appeal to others; so, it could be considered a return to the original art.

Also, although I practice what most would consider a TMA, I frequently call it "An Indonesian Mixed Martial Art" because it is. I've changed nothing about the art, but they way I practice it with some folks it doesn't look like your father's TMA.

 

[cfr]

Trent, thanks for your insights.

 

[Bod]

The answer is nobody goes from MMA to TMA.

Why?

Royce Gracie started out in traditional BJJ. That made him TMA. Then he did UFC. That made him a mixed martial artist. When he went back to the BJJ dojo, so he went back to TMA right?

No, BJJ has to be considered as a MMA style now, because Royce won the UFC.

Judo is a TMA style until Yoshida goes around winning events.

Sport TKD is only not a MMA style because no-one with that background alone has won the UFC. Is boxing an MMA style?

MMA/TMA is a false dichotomy.

 

[Matt Stone]

Train in an art, train a technique... Don't train labels, because labels will let you down every single time.

Like I said earlier...

Internal/External, Hard/Soft, Northern/Southern, TMA/MMA, orthodox/eclectic...

Labels, labels and more labels.

The reality is BG (Bad Guy) attacks you. You decide what constitutes a "win" scenario, and you take steps to make that happen. Your training should prepare you to employ the techniques to allow you to obtain the "win." If it doesn't, if it leaves something out, then your training isn't supporting your goal and your reaction will be limited to the extent of your training...

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

The answer is nobody goes from MMA to TMA.

Why?

Royce Gracie started out in traditional BJJ. That made him TMA. Then he did UFC. That made him a mixed martial artist. When he went back to the BJJ dojo, so he went back to TMA right?

No, BJJ has to be considered as a MMA style now, because Royce won the UFC.

Judo is a TMA style until Yoshida goes around winning events.

Sport TKD is only not a MMA style because no-one with that background alone has won the UFC. Is boxing an MMA style?

MMA/TMA is a false dichotomy.

Let's take a look at each of your statements. the most important is your last one about the dichotomy of MMA/TMA. It seems to be the underlying assumption of your points:

The dichotomy is not false, just incorrectly labeled. I suggest the correct "label" for the dichotomy is not MMA/TMA but Sport/TMA.

Let's define these: Sport-arts emphasize competition (within a set of rules, of course) for promotion/trophies/medals/belts/cash/fame/etc via tournaments/matches/challenges and in everyday training. Sport arts celebrate the most recent victory and focus training on preparing for the next competition whether that next competition is a major event or just the next Randori partner. Traditional Martial Arts emphasize individual skills, improvements, and progress through a pre-defined curriculum. TMA's celebrate the lineage and focus training on preserving the skills of the predecessors. When you look at it this way, your argument falls apart.

Now, if we apply these definitions to Royce Gracie and BJJ. BJJ is a Sport art, not a TMA. BJJ players augment their ground-fighting skills with boxing, kick-boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, and/or Wrestling. Then they fight in MMA or Vale Tudo events where they can combine these skills. Royce Gracie may or may not spend more time doing BJJ than MMA. But that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that he trains with a competition focus rather than a tradition focus.

Judo poses an interesting dilema in this debate. It is a Sport-art in terms of its physical training, but is a traditional art in terms of its rituals and reverences. There is freedom within the Judo community to train either way. Yoshida competing in MMA at a top level does not represent a significant change in training philosophy--Judo does have striking techniques after all. Yoshida is one individual who chooses to take the sport-aspect of his art to the highest level. But, he has not changed the nature of Judo.

TKD is not a Mixed Martial Art. TKD can be taught for Sport or as a TMA. Certainly Olympic TKDists train with a sport mindset. But, the most of the 5-year olds at the strip-mall Dojang around the corner are not training for the Olympics--they are studying a TMA for self-improvement.

 

[Matt Stone]

Normally I don't agree with a lot of OFK's comments, but lately I'm finding he isn't as big a f***tard as I previously thought (JK OFK!!!)...

I think he is onto something, but he isn't the first... Donn Draeger made distinctions between military arts and civil arts when he first set about researching and classifying the martial arts he encountered. Some had battlefield use, many did not (nor were they intended to).

I think in a Draeger-esque manner, we need to identify and classify (using those darned labels) the differences between sport and non-sport arts.

Punches, kicks, throws, when trained with the specific intent to injure and/or maim your opponent, makes it non-sport.

To do the same in order to score a point and win a trophy? Well, that's another animal altogether...

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Normally I don't agree with a lot of OFK's comments, but lately I'm finding he isn't as big a f***tard as I previously thought (JK OFK!!!)...

I think he is onto something, but he isn't the first...

Well, gee...thanks Matt...I think...

I certainly am not the first to come up with this perspective. I have to admit that while the early UFC's caused me to ask the question, I didn't find the answers to form my current perspective until I read Royler and Renzo Gracie's "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Theory and Technique" and Renzo Gracie's "Master Ju Jitsu" books. Both books have pretty well thought out discussions of the difference between sport and TMA's. I strongly recommend that every martial artist read the 25 pages of text at the beginning of the Royler/Renzo Theory and Technique book. It is the best discussion of this topic I've seen. If you are not interested in buying the books...just go sit down with one for an hour at your local Border's or Barnes & Noble.

 

[Zujitsuka]

I can only say this. I have a friend and former student who was on the 3rd APC to cross the iraqi border. He was a marine sniper assigned to force Recon. He fought hand to hand in downtown Bagdad. He said It was his (TMA) training that he used to survive. mind you in down town bagdad there are no cages with referees, no time limits, there are no holds and techniques that are not allowed, there are no styles or systems. You only survive or die. He survived. He told me there are some Iraqis he fought that didnt.

I was a former military man myself, so let me start off by saying that I wish your friend / former student a safe return back to the states.

Your friend is a Marine. Everything they do is geared toward kicking butt (e.g. pugil sticks). As one of our colleagues mentioned earlier, it isn't what you train in, but how you train. I'm not discounting your friend's traditional martial arts training, but it was probably his USMC training that is keeping him alive.

Anyway, the sports v. street argument is really old. Check out this article,

http://www.mmaringreport.com/columns/rodney2.htm

Enjoy.

 

[gusano]

Bod wrote "Royce Gracie started out in traditional BJJ. That made him TMA. Then he did UFC. That made him a mixed martial artist. When he went back to the BJJ dojo, so he went back to TMA right?"

BJJ or Gracie JJ is not a TMA and is not a MMA either. GJJ/BJJ is the martial art that spawned the birth of MMA as we now know it. MMA refers to the combining of various martial arts to include, punching, kicking, knees, elbows, takedowns, grappling, and finishing holds. Prior to the first UFC, everyone was just training their own style of martial art. Karate guys trained karate and kung fu guys trained kung-fu, boxers boxed, wrestlers wrestled, etc. The UFC was the first MAJOR venue that said, "Lets have a competition where different styles can compete against each other with limited rules." The first UFC's rules were, no biting, no eye gouging, and thats about it. Anybody with big enough ball$ could "compete" (FIGHT!). Royce Gracie amazed the world by winning the first few UFC's with relative ease. He was the smallest "competitor" there at 178lbs and it was the same scenario over and over,.....clinch, takedown, choke! The worlds eyes were opened and in fact many thought it was FIXED! They didn't understand how this physically unimposing, skinny, brazilian kid, who was not even the best fighter in his family, could make these other men tap the mat furiously begging to be released and not wanting to fight anymore. Nowadays people crosstrain because they know the importance of it as demonstrated by the UFC, Pride, etc. BJJ/GJJ always used punches, kicks, but they are to compliment and set up the submission arsenal favored to finish the fight. BJJ/GJJ has been born of many battles where there are no rules period. Remember, that in Brasil, prior to the UFC, there have been vale tudo (no rules) matches fought for many years. Prior to Royce winning the UFC's he had never won a major jiu-jitsu tournament in Brasil. The whole world thought Royce Gracie was the baddest mother on the planet and Brasil was laughing it's **** off because there were at least a 100 guys there who could beat him! I can still see Keith Hackney when he fought the huge 600 lb guy and broke his hand after striking him in the head and face 50 times without interruption, all I can think is........if only he knew a choke hold the fight could be over, his hand wouldn't be broke, and he could have continued in the tournament.

 

[Matt Stone]

BJJ or Gracie JJ is not a TMA

I'd submit that, in the strictest sense of the word, it most certainly is a TMA.

Royce Gracie amazed the world by winning the first few UFC's with relative ease.

Proving nothing other than training for the venue you compete in is the most important thing... You fight how you train, and the people that lost spent more time doing inappropriate training than they did focusing on the venue they were going to compete in.

He was the smallest "competitor" there at 178lbs and it was the same scenario over and over,.....clinch, takedown, choke! The worlds eyes were opened and in fact many thought it was FIXED! They didn't understand how this physically unimposing, skinny, brazilian kid, who was not even the best fighter in his family, could make these other men tap the mat furiously begging to be released and not wanting to fight anymore.

Have you ever seen Royce in person? He isn't the "physically unimposing, skinny Brazilian kid" you try to make him out to be... If I knew how to attach an image, I'd do so - a picture of me, my son, and Royce standing together after a demonstration he did in Japan. He isn't huge, but "physically unimposing" and "skinny" aren't phrases I'd use to describe him...

Nowadays people crosstrain because they know the importance of it as demonstrated by the UFC, Pride, etc.

And living TMAs "crosstrained" because they also knew the importance of it as evidenced by real fights. However, their crosstraining was nowhere near as haphazard nor disjointed as most MMA nutriders pursue (a little Muay Thai, a little BJJ/GJJ, a little this, a little that).

BJJ/GJJ always used punches, kicks, but they are to compliment and set up the submission arsenal favored to finish the fight.

I would say that, having seen only the punching displayed by Royce in the UFC, that in a striking only contest, they'd be the guys who brought knives to a gun fight... They are good at what they are good at. Don't confuse the issue by equating their dominance in grappling with an all around dominance of all aspects of fighting.

BJJ/GJJ has been born of many battles where there are no rules period.

I understood it to be that GJJ was born of Helio getting his *** handed to him by his older and larger brother...

I can still see Keith Hackney when he fought the huge 600 lb guy and broke his hand after striking him in the head and face 50 times without interruption, all I can think is........if only he knew a choke hold the fight could be over, his hand wouldn't be broke, and he could have continued in the tournament.

Sorry, again you err... Even if Hackney knew a choke hold, the size of the pseudo-sumotori's neck and his weight/size dominance would have proven that technique as futile as the strikes could have been... I seem to remember that Hackney won by KO. Sure, he broke his hand. I attribute that to a failure to condition his weapon properly, and likely using poor technique.