A MT argument while at work

[rutherford]

I agree with you. I believe this article is great and may be of interest since it seems related to this discussion. Coach Sonnon isn't a doctor or scientist but he draws on known information.

The Media Myth of the Flinch Reflex

Coach Sonnon does have a PhD.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I see your point, and it has great merit. However focusing on "a few solid ones (techniques)" as you put it is still based in techniques rather than principles. Knowing the principles of movement one can adapt without concious thought to any situation. Knowing only the technique and not the principle, any adaptation will be more of a guess than an adaptation.

Principle is abstract that technique utilises. When under attack, you will not have time to concsciously decided which principles to utilise, by the time you mentally register a punch is thrown and formulate a tactic to deal with it, the punch will hit you.
On the other hand if you train a general reaction for it, your body will react without you having to analyse "This is a punch, moving might be a good idea"

Abstracts do not exist outside of our heads. You can't use one in a fight. All you can use our techniques and tactics that make use of the concept,
but you can't fight using the principle alone, it still needs to be given form.

 

[Cirdan]

Principle is abstract that technique utilises. When under attack, you will not have time to concsciously decided which principles to utilise, by the time you mentally register a punch is thrown and formulate a tactic to deal with it, the punch will hit you.
On the other hand if you train a general reaction for it, your body will react without you having to analyse "This is a punch, moving might be a good idea"

Abstracts do not exist outside of our heads. You can't use one in a fight. All you can use our techniques and tactics that make use of the concept,
but you can't fight using the principle alone, it still needs to be given form.

I don`t quite see how you can say that principles like the Ju of Ju Jutsu does not exist outside of our heads... unless you make the argument that nothing exists outside our heads of course. (If you are saying that any model is a simplification, then I agree.)

Of course the principle needs to be applied. However applying a principle once it is part of your every movement does not require concious thought any more than walking. It also binds your actions together in a whole rather than opplying one technique, stop, and then applying another.

 

[Bigshadow]

Coach Sonnon does have a PhD.

Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of that!

 

[jks9199]

That's a really interesting take... in a sense, you're saying that there's a built-in problem with comparing TMA/MMA practitioners, in that the choice of MA isn't symmetrical, but is skewed in terms of how comfortable the practitioner is with all-out fighting: those who kind of love it and are happy with it gravitate to MMAs these days, while those who don't really like it and learn MAs so that at the last resort they'll be able to come out in one piece are drawn to TMAs... that could be a big factor! Another great breakthrough for the Asylum! :wink1:

Can you think of any way that this idea could be further tested out to see how well it jibes with the way the world is?

I think it's more that the commercial schools are caught in a business bind. They're in business, and they need paying students to keep the doors open. So, they're going to adapt what they teach to what people want. Only a small portion of people who study martial arts want to do hard, combative training. A larger portion want to competitive sport training (sparring or forms). A significant portion don't want anything sparring related; they want to get a work out, hang out with their buddies, and have that cachet of "being a martial artist." Lots of that last group won't even want to hit bags or pads if they can avoid it!

So... You've got bills to pay, and you've got a choice. You can offer hard style, combative training and maybe make it... Or you can offer Ninja Turtle programs and after-school day care, and family programs and exciting competition teams along with cardio-kickboxing...and pull in most of the people who'd be interested. Guess what it seems most school owners are forced to do?

 

[Bigshadow]

Thats not how gross motor skills work. The point of a gross motor skill is it becomes a reaction that doesn't require concsious thought. Fine motor skills are normally the ones which you have to think about.

I believe you missed my point. I really wasn't saying gross motor skills are not used subconsciously. Likewise, fine motor skills can be used subconsciously and under stress. Just it takes longer to train the fine motor skills into the subconscious. This is largely affected by tension. More tension equals less fine motor skills. That was one of the points in the article I posted a link to. I was trying to point out that the subconscious mind can process large volumes of data very fast that cannot be done with conscious thought.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Thats not how gross motor skills work. The point of a gross motor skill is it becomes a reaction that doesn't require concsious thought. Fine motor skills are normally the ones which you have to think about.

Fine motor skills can be drilled into the subconscious and can be used when the need arises as well. I agree with Big Shadow that is sometimes just takes longer. (depending on the individual of course)
In my personal experience when handcuffing subjects I have used both fine motor skills and gross motor skills together. The training just brought out the reactions and I did what I had to do.

 

[juszczec]

Where does everyone stand on this?

I think MMA is one of the most positive things to happen to, at least, my MA world.

When I started training, it was for self defense. I didn't know from self improvement to sporting competition or anything other than "learn this and it'll be easier to stop people from doing bad things to you". Period.

Kinda similar (I think) to the guys who developed and recorded the methods that gave rise to what we do today.

I strongly suspect the seminal methods that became todays MA looked an awful lot more like MMA than anything else.

Hey, if nothing else, I realized it ain't a bad thing to know how to "wrestle"

Mark

 

[Rook]

IMO, that is only for conscious thought. It takes far too long to process consciously all the pieces of information or data that is ever changing in a confrontation and formulate a response in time enough to deal with it. However, the subconscious mind is quite fast and can analyze far more data and formulate a plan of action far faster than the conscious mind. This is usually expressed in a "feeling" for the shape of the attack. The body will naturally and quickly respond to this feeling.

For instance, if you were to accidentally put your finger on a hot burner you will move it immediately without conscious thought. One doesn't consciously go through steps like:

1. Wow that is hot
2. I need to move my finger
3. Moving finger now

You will do it without conscious thought. In my opinion, it is this ability that takes time to get good or proficient at. If one focuses on a handful of gross motor skills then they can consciously analyze and implement them somewhat effectively, but they will be limited in their abilities under pressure.

Just my opinions and view points.

False analogy. Heat reactions like that are "spinal flinches;" no way to train such a reaction. YOu can train to respond instinctively, but anything you can train will still be "brain" reaction... works differently.

 

[Bigshadow]

False analogy. Heat reactions like that are "spinal flinches;" no way to train such a reaction.

OK, I'll pick another such as driving in heavy traffic. When one first starts driving it is scary as hell as there is so much going on. Years later (provided one learned) one can drive for miles in heavy traffic and often not even remember doing it. It doesn't have to be remembered consciously as in Step 1, step 2, step 3 and so forth. One learns to see the spaces between the cars and not the cars themselves. One begins to feel the spaces grow and shrink as the cars move about. If they pay attention to the cars, it can become intimidating.

Oh and be completely relaxed while doing it, making casual and smooth fluid movements and corrections.

There are lessons here that can be applied to training.

 

[Hand Sword]

No matter how you have trained, when the moment of truth arrives YOU alone are the one that must make the choise to defend yourself. No system or technique or reflex or wathever will do this for you. Period.

There is truth in that. I remember many circumstances of someone that knew his stuff very well, was beat up and never tried to defend himself. He was an "A" student, a passive personality, looked at as a "sweet heart by all of the grown ups. When asked why he didn't do anything, especially, when he could have easily done so, he responded that he never wanted to get into trouble, or be suspended.

Again, I still say that one's mindset/personality are the real deciding factors.

 

[thewhitemikevick]

Lmao yep...that was pretty much my situation when i first started getting into martial arts lol. It just so happens that Tae Kwon Do was the first martial art I started learning outside of the boxing realm, too lol.

Anyways, personally it's my belief that MMA isn't EVERYTHING. It's effecient in the ring or in the Octagon, and people think that it's "proven" that its effective in fighting situations because it has been used succesfully against another martial artist in a controlled setting with a designed set of rules that the fighters must obey in their fight and are forced to conform their tactics around. It's not really a matter of which is better, it's just that they're different. MMA hasn't proven anything. It's shown us a lot, and it's been very illuminating, but throwing a Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu fighter in the octagon witha Kung Fu master and having the BJJ guy tap him with a rear naked choke doesn't neccessarily show me the "dominance" or "effeciency" of Jiu-Jitsu. Don't get me wrong, I think UFC and Pride FC and the rest of the MMA organizations out there have shown us a lot, and overall have been very entertaining and exciting, but I wouldn't neccesarily say that what they have demonstrated in the octagon has really proven anything.

TMA VS MMA. It's going to be a debate for the rest of the ages lol.

 

[Hand Sword]

I still say, If it's about real self defense then a person should be well versed in both sides of this debate. Each side helps the other out, adding to the effectiveness of the individual's fighting skills.

 

[Rook]

Anyways, personally it's my belief that MMA isn't EVERYTHING. It's effecient in the ring or in the Octagon, and people think that it's "proven" that its effective in fighting situations because it has been used succesfully against another martial artist in a controlled setting with a designed set of rules that the fighters must obey in their fight and are forced to conform their tactics around.

Its important that we correct this perception. MMA is not limited to a cage or ring... most of the fights that we believe to support our position were ones fought in challenge matches without any rules at all. Such challenge matches are still available wherever there is a Gracie.

 

[thewhitemikevick]

Haha true that! Gotta love them Gracies lmao. But the only thing I ask myself is, in these fights they are working to knock someone out, or submit them or incapacitate them, but how often really are they working for the kill, which is where a lot of techniques from martial arts are centered? I'm fairly certain that there are teachings of BJJ that incorporate kill points into their techniques...but I don't think I've ever seen them used to actually try and kill someone. The problem for me is, back when most of these types of fights would have been possible, I wasn't around or wasn't a live to see it, so how will I ever know? These days, would a Gracie fight you to the death if you challenged him to a deathmatch? Haha perhaps so, they are both an honorable and a stubborn people, and that's why you've gotta love em lol. But I just don't know. There are things I wish I could have witnessed and seen for myself that would make my perception on this matter all the better.

 

[Tez3]

Just read this thread in one go! I do MMA and I am black belt Tang Soo Do and 1st Kyu Wado Ryu. I've heard all these arguments time and time again.
Firstly MMA is not new. It is as old as any TMA if not older,one of it's former names was Pankration and as such was in the original Olympic Games.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Olympics/pankration.html

I suspect that many people are judging MMA purely from the UFC which to be honest is unfair. The vast majority of people I know in MMA don't slag TMAs off.I certainly wouldn't beat my chest (at least not without a chest guard lol) and say MMA is the one and only MA. It seems to be almost an obsession among the posters on here as to which style or art is best for street fighting! I don't believe it is the art or the style, it is the person themself who is the deciding factor as whether they can fight or not.
I know four fighters who competed in the UFC,I know all of them can more than look after themselves outside the ring. If you need more info I'm afraid you'll have to PM me as it's definitely not for an open forum LOL!
To be honest I think it's wasting precious training time arguing over TMA v MMA but that's me !
Kensai, if you still want a grappling club PM me with the area you want or how far you are willing to travel and what exactly you want to do and I will give you some club names etc.

 

[Hand Sword]

I guess it's all moot points. Realistically speaking, the "TMA's" and "MMA's" aren't different, both ways, have punching, kicking, and grappling. Even the "street fighters" punch, kick, and grapple without any training at all, just natural instincts. Why? Because Fighting is what it is, and hasn't changed for us, since the beginning of the human race. The "arts", as a collective whole, are just ways of sharpening the tools needed. We're all painting the same picture, with the same tools, and materials, we're just using different brush strokes.

 

[Rook]

Haha true that! Gotta love them Gracies lmao. But the only thing I ask myself is, in these fights they are working to knock someone out, or submit them or incapacitate them, but how often really are they working for the kill, which is where a lot of techniques from martial arts are centered? I'm fairly certain that there are teachings of BJJ that incorporate kill points into their techniques...but I don't think I've ever seen them used to actually try and kill someone. The problem for me is, back when most of these types of fights would have been possible, I wasn't around or wasn't a live to see it, so how will I ever know? These days, would a Gracie fight you to the death if you challenged him to a deathmatch? Haha perhaps so, they are both an honorable and a stubborn people, and that's why you've gotta love em lol. But I just don't know. There are things I wish I could have witnessed and seen for myself that would make my perception on this matter all the better.

It wouldn't be difficult to kill with grappling if it became necessary. All you would need to do is continue to hold the choke until death resulted, or continue the neck crank etc. It was never necessary for the Gracies to kill people, and I am glad it wasn't, but don't think that the style wouldn't be capable of it.

 

[FuriousGeorge]

This is an interesting discussion. I tend to think this business of trying to compare styles is a futile practice. The reason MMA is viewed by so many to be such a strong backgroud when it comes to real life fighting, is because MMA isn't a style at all, rather its a collection of variables intended to simulate a street fight while simultaneously keeping the fighters relatively safe. For the MMA fighter, the fight is about validating all of the techniques we spend hours drilling and practicing. MMA is not exclusive to any technique, philosophy, strategy, style or anything else, every art is given an equal chance. What fails to deliver gets thrown out, and this is individual, GSP does a lot of kicks that would be pointless for most fighters to try.

Its important to recognize that while the variables at play in a sanctioned MMA fight are different than the variables in a street fight, but not by so much that we can't learn about real confrontations from MMA. MMA comes from all the TMAs available, but the fact that its real fighting means some stuff works and some doesn't. Many TMAs are comfortable practicing a lot of technique without ever testing against a resisting opponent. Some TMA people will even say that what they know is too dangerous to actually do in a sparring match. Well isn't that special, the five point palm exploding heart technique of whichever style is too dangerous to do to anybody, so we should just take your word that its effective and then when we get attacked count on being able to do it. Yeah that makes lots of sense. I know that the next time I get mugged seems like a great time to see if my style actually works. I don't want to sound like I'm knocking TMAs, I have lots of respect for TMAs, and TMAs that are willing to put it on the line have my utmost respect, but some people are content to think they're studying something effective without ever putting their abilities on the line because they like belts, uniforms, wooden swords and kanji...its an ego boost.

 

[Hand Sword]

I would say that the "ego boost" you were referring to comes from willingly, and constantly getting into fights, not from Kanji, Gi's, belts and wooden swords.