Train TMA but fight like kickboxer

[JowGaWolf]

His point is that if you say you are training for "the street" and "the street" is really that much more dangerous than the ring or the cage, then you should be training harder than a competitive boxer or MMA competitor, not less.

I don't think this is true either. If I'm losing a street fight I can pull out a knife or get my friend in on the action. Lot's of cases where a street fight ended up with someone getting stabbed or shot by someone who trains less than an MMA fighter.

"training for the streets" My experience with this is that if a person is really training for the streets then they are training to not be in a fight because of the dangers that I listed above. January of this year, an MMA fighter was stabbed to death in Brazil there is a good chance that the person that stabbed him doesn't train like an MMA fighter.
"the streets" may mean different things to different people maybe "the streets" in Australia have a lot of fist fights. If that's the case then I agree with Drop Bear. From what I know about "The Streets," the first thoughts are about knife and gun. No one cares what you can do with your kicks, punches, or grappling.

If I was going to use the term "street fight" like I think Drop bear is trying to use it as. I would say "Empty hand street fighting"

My view is slightly different. I wouldn't say that a given fight in "the street" is necessarily rougher than a fight in the ring or the cage. I would say that it's more random. Imagine that you decided to sign up for a "martial arts competition", but you didn't find out until the match began whether you were in the white belt division of a point karate tournament, an amateur boxing match, a high school wrestling meet, a forms competition, a professional Lethwei bout, a Dog Brothers full-contact stick fight, or a title fight against the UFC heavyweight champion. Statistically speaking, you're more likely to end up somewhere at the easier end of the spectrum, but there's always the chance of landing in a situation you are completely unprepared to handle.

This is what makes it dangerous. It could start out as a white belt division and turn into a full contact weapons fight or 2 vs1, or dodge ball with a brick or a trash can. Road Rage can start as a shouting match and end up with a shootout.

Last night I was going to post a video of a guy who was tall and built. It started out as road range. He got out of his car pumped is fists as he approached. You can hear the guy unseen int he background say "What now!! Go back to your car" The tough guy had a gun pulled on him by someone who trains less. What did the tough guy do? He shut his mouth and walked back to his car. He was fortunate that he was given the opportunity to walk back to his car.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I disagree, its never fair, there are weapons, its chaotic. In fact, I think that tough guy “ I’ve got this” attitude is likely to escalate the situation. I can give a somewhat recent example. A close friend trained kickboxing at fairtex in the Bay Area. A person side swiped my friends Muay Thai teachers car right out front of the gym. The teacher ran outside to confront the offender. The offenders car got stuck in the traffic, so the kickboxing teacher was able to approach and say WTF? You just hit my car! The offender then saw that a muscle built guy was about to pull him out of his car, so he shot and killed the teacher on the spot. The teacher was well trained and tough. Sad but true story, the street is not the ring, treating one like the other can get you dead.

I disagree. It is sometimes fair, but you can't count on it. There are sometimes weapons, and sometimes not. And I don't know that MMA training is any more likely to engender a tough-guy attitude than anything else (though it's likely it attracts people with that attitude at a higher rate than, say, Aikido).

Individual examples will always be findable. We could find a few dozen that show MMA training helped people survived assaults, and a few dozen that show they didn't.

My point is that, of the possible things you might face "in the street", a percentage of them can be survived or escaped by fighting. This is one area where all martial arts seem to agree, though they still manage to argue about it at the same time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I totally agree with you. They are not the same thing. I get similar folks. That doesn’t mean they aren’t dangerous in their own element. Which is exactly my point. Just because you are ufc champ doesn’t mean that a well placed brick to the back of the head won’t end you in one second flat. Same as just because you can knock someone out with sucker punches doesn’t mean you can rock and roll in the ring. I think we finally agree on something. Unless I’m wrong yet again?

This is an argument from an extreme, and it seems specious to me. Someone shooting from 30 paces negates all fighting ability. But that's not what MA (including MMA, SD-oriented training, or anything else with any semblance of reality to it) is trying to deal with. That those things (raged weapons and surprise bricks to the back of the head) aren't likely to be mitigated by fighting skill doesn't in any way suggest that fighting skill offers no improvement of survival chances in other possible encounters.

 

[Steve]

That’s my point. You cant train for street fights. It just happens and sometimes you don’t know it till it’s too late to get out of it. Thankfully hasn’t happened to me since I left the city many years ago.

This is a new one. The existential crisis approach to self defense training. There is no preparation, so why bother? Nothing works. No one is more or less prepared than anyone else for the mean streets.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We get about 1 every three months come in telling us a out how he is some sort of knock out merchant on the streets.

And he is generally fairly easily handled by most of the experienced guys.

The standard for being a tough guy in the street isn't very high.

If you are talking about people like that then I wouldn't give them the title "street fighter" I wouldn't honor them with that. Call that guy a "recreational fighter" with a self-esteem issue. Those people don't even "pick low hanging fruit." They "pick fruit that is on the ground" much of it is made of people who don't have the skill set nor the determination to compete at an amateur level. Dude's like that are chumps drunk on their own busted dreams of glory. I'm not saying all recreational fighters are like that. I'm only talking about the ones that go to gym with the vision of beating everyone.

I think of them like I think of Back Yard Wrestling vs Professional Wrestling.

Guys who know how to fight and where their skills actually stand could probably take turns punching a bag for 5 minutes and get an idea of which of the 5 can beat them down. When the MMA guy at my gym hits the bag. I don't sit there and think "ah I can be that guy." First thing that comes to my mind is that he's got a lot of power that I don't want to camp out in.

Sorry your gym gets a lot of those chumps. Keep serving them up. Nope the standard for being a tough guy in the street has never been high. But it has always been dirty. The ones that come to your gym thinking that they are tough don't even rise to street status.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I disagree, its never fair, there are weapons, its chaotic. In fact, I think that tough guy “ I’ve got this” attitude is likely to escalate the situation. I can give a somewhat recent example. A close friend trained kickboxing at fairtex in the Bay Area. A person side swiped my friends Muay Thai teachers car right out front of the gym. The teacher ran outside to confront the offender. The offenders car got stuck in the traffic, so the kickboxing teacher was able to approach and say WTF? You just hit my car! The offender then saw that a muscle built guy was about to pull him out of his car, so he shot and killed the teacher on the spot. The teacher was well trained and tough. Sad but true story, the street is not the ring, treating one like the other can get you dead.

Alex Gong? I met him once. Seemed like a nice guy.

That sort of occurrence is why I always teach my students that avoiding the fight is the way to go when at all possible. As I said in my previous comment, you just don't know what you're going to get. Against 99+% of unarmed opponents, Alex would have easily dominated a fight in the ring or in the streets. But there is no way (especially in the U.S.) to know beforehand that an adversary will be unarmed.

In this situation, Alex didn't have any need to pursue the guy who hit his car. There was no one he needed to defend. He could have just written down the guy's license plate number and called the cops. But he let his anger and ego take over and the result was a tragedy.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Alex Gong? I met him once. Seemed like a nice guy.

That sort of occurrence is why I always teach my students that avoiding the fight is the way to go when at all possible. As I said in my previous comment, you just don't know what you're going to get. Against 99+% of unarmed opponents, Alex would have easily dominated a fight in the ring or in the streets. But there is no way (especially in the U.S.) to know beforehand that an adversary will be unarmed.

In this situation, Alex didn't have any need to pursue the guy who hit his car. There was no one he needed to defend. He could have just written down the guy's license plate number and called the cops. But he let his anger and ego take over and the result was a tragedy.

Yes it was. Yes he was a nice guy. Yes he was very skilled. It was an easy mistake to make. He is missed. No way to know that would happen. Very sad.

 

[Flying Crane]

I disagree, its never fair, there are weapons, its chaotic. In fact, I think that tough guy “ I’ve got this” attitude is likely to escalate the situation. I can give a somewhat recent example. A close friend trained kickboxing at fairtex in the Bay Area. A person side swiped my friends Muay Thai teachers car right out front of the gym. The teacher ran outside to confront the offender. The offenders car got stuck in the traffic, so the kickboxing teacher was able to approach and say WTF? You just hit my car! The offender then saw that a muscle built guy was about to pull him out of his car, so he shot and killed the teacher on the spot. The teacher was well trained and tough. Sad but true story, the street is not the ring, treating one like the other can get you dead.

I remember when that happened. I was living in San Francisco at the time.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Alex Gong? I met him once. Seemed like a nice guy.

That sort of occurrence is why I always teach my students that avoiding the fight is the way to go when at all possible. As I said in my previous comment, you just don't know what you're going to get. Against 99+% of unarmed opponents, Alex would have easily dominated a fight in the ring or in the streets. But there is no way (especially in the U.S.) to know beforehand that an adversary will be unarmed.

In this situation, Alex didn't have any need to pursue the guy who hit his car. There was no one he needed to defend. He could have just written down the guy's license plate number and called the cops. But he let his anger and ego take over and the result was a tragedy.

I wasn’t there, but my friend Matt was. It was traumatic for everyone involved. I’m not sure it was ego or anger even, it could have just been like “ hey! You hit my car!”

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is a new one. The existential crisis approach to self defense training. There is no preparation, so why bother? Nothing works. No one is more or less prepared than anyone else for the mean streets.

Now, I didn’t say why bother. You are switching tracks. I never said nothing works. I never said any of this, so you aren’t really being fair to say that my comment is the existential crisis approach. I’m done arguing the point, if we can’t be fair in our debate it’s pointless to continue. Beyond that, I’m wrong, I don’t know anything about what I’m saying. You are right, MMA is the be all and end all of all things martial. I have wasted enough time blathering on about this stuff that I clearly have no experience or knowledge of. I’m on my back peeing in total submission. Are we good now?

 

[JowGaWolf]

That’s my point. You cant train for street fights. It just happens and sometimes you don’t know it till it’s too late to get out of it. Thankfully hasn’t happened to me since I left the city many years ago.

A person that tells me they train for "Street fights" will lose instantly lose credibility with me. If I'm in a calm and laid back mood then I would probably ask them, what do they mean by "Street fights." Iol. Out of all of the self-defense classes and martial arts classes I taught, I have never once said. "I'm going to train you how to win a street fight." The best I can do is train someone so that they have a chance to know when one might be happening and how gracefully take that "off ramp" so they can exit the conflict without appearing weak and insulting. Oh I also teach "How to keep ya mouth shut." Some people get sucked in when they should be taking that exit and getting out of a situation about to go bad.

As for the other stuff when they may not know when or where they will be attack. All I can is, take threats seriously and keep scanning the environment.

Don't be on the phone unless you are calling the police. That'll get you jacked up lol.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A person that tells me they train for "Street fights" will lose instantly lose credibility with me. If I'm in a calm and laid back mood then I would probably ask them, what do they mean by "Street fights." Iol. Out of all of the self-defense classes and martial arts classes I taught, I have never once said. "I'm going to train you how to win a street fight." The best I can do is train someone so that they have a chance to know when one might be happening and how gracefully take that "off ramp" so they can exit the conflict without appearing weak and insulting. Oh I also teach "How to keep ya mouth shut." Some people get sucked in when they should be taking that exit and getting out of a situation about to go bad.

As for the other stuff when they may not know when or where they will be attack. All I can is, take threats seriously and keep scanning the environment.

Don't be on the phone unless you are calling the police. That'll get you jacked up lol.

Funny you say that, because that’s how I got car jacked when I was 19. On a pay phone at the gas station. Asked me for a cigarette, then boom hit me. Then one of the other two got my keys and wallet while the third one held a gun on me. Long, dejected, angry walk home to explain to my gf at the time. That one was in Riverside.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I remember when that happened. I was living in San Francisco at the time.

It was a tough time for the students there. Alex was the dude.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes it was. Yes he was a nice guy. Yes he was very skilled. It was an easy mistake to make. He is missed. No way to know that would happen. Very sad.

My default is set to "Everyone has a weapon." and "Everyone has back up except for me." This is my default so that I can be more measured in conflicts, scan for possible weapons and friends who may jump in. I also scan the environment for things that can be used as weapons or help me. But most of all, I try not to let my mouth get me into more trouble. If someone wants to take an exit out of the conversation, then I let them. If they let me take an exit then I 'll take that too. I don't need the last word or the street cred.

 

[Steve]

I don't think this is true either. If I'm losing a street fight I can pull out a knife or get my friend in on the action. Lot's of cases where a street fight ended up with someone getting stabbed or shot by someone who trains less than an MMA fighter.

yeah, but if you pull out your knife, I'll pull out my bazooka, and I will have more friends than you, and they will all be highly trained ninja. If this is a battle of creative writing, I feel really, really well prepared to invent something more extreme than you. Come at me... I type 85 words per minute and am fully caffeinated.

Doesn't have much to do with reality, but it's still fun to make things up, as you clearly know.

Now, I didn’t say why bother. You are switching tracks. I never said nothing works. I never said any of this.

You didn't? You're words say no... but they also say yes.

That’s my point. You cant train for street fights. It just happens and sometimes you don’t know it till it’s too late to get out of it. Thankfully hasn’t happened to me since I left the city many years ago.

I mean, this is the entirety of your post. I highlighted the key phrase, which is "You cant [sic] train for street fights." It literally comes after you say, "That's my point," which is how I know that it's your point.

That said, I'm fine letting it drop.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My default is set to "Everyone has a weapon." and "Everyone has back up except for me." This is my default so that I can be more measured in conflicts, scan for possible weapons and friends who may jump in. I also scan the environment for things that can be used as weapons or help me. But most of all, I try not to let my mouth get me into more trouble. If someone wants to take an exit out of the conversation, then I let them. If they let me take an exit then I 'll take that too. I don't need the last word or the street cred.

Effing A skippy! I don’t care a lick about the last word or ego at this point in life. I finally have something to lose other than my life. I’m just trying to avoid training injury these days. That other life is hopefully over. Seems like a bad dream anyway. I don’t miss long walks home in the cheapest apartment neighborhoods. I don’t miss gunshots or ghetto birds waking me up every night either. That damned spotlight is the worst, it goes through curtains!

 

[JowGaWolf]

That one was in Riverside.

ha ha ha.. Why does ever Riverside have crazy stories like that. My cousin had a birthday on a street called Riverside. I got to that place and couldn't help to think I was in the wrong place, No parking lights. Small bar tucked into a small wooded section area looked rundown and like the businesses were abandon. Worst place to open a bar lol. Bar only had one way out too. lol I've never been down a Riverside that made me feel comfortable lol

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

yeah, but if you pull out your knife, I'll pull out my bazooka, and I will have more friends than you, and they will all be highly trained ninja. If this is a battle of creative writing, I feel really, really well prepared to invent something more extreme than you. Come at me... I type 85 words per minute and am fully caffeinated.

Doesn't have much to do with reality, but it's still fun to make things up, as you clearly know.




You didn't? You're words say no... but they also say yes.


I mean, this is the entirety of your post. I highlighted the key phrase, which is "You cant [sic] train for street fights." It literally comes after you say, "That's my point," which is how I know that it's your point.

That said, I'm fine letting it drop.

Whatever man, I’m over it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Effing A skippy! I don’t care a lick about the last word or ego at this point in life. I finally have something to lose other than my life. I’m just trying to avoid training injury these days. That other life is hopefully over. Seems like a bad dream anyway. I don’t miss long walks home in the cheapest apartment neighborhoods. I don’t miss gunshots or ghetto birds waking me up every night either. That damned spotlight is the worst, it goes through curtains!

ha ha ha.. Ghetto Birds. yeah I don't miss those either. Everytime something happened in my area they used light up the woods near where I lived. My reaction was "Ah H--L, what's going on now?" 2 things I worried about.
1. Was I going to run into the guy they are looking for
2. Were they going to think I'm the guy they are looking for.

Stuff is nuts. I don't miss where I used to live either. For anyone else that's never had to be around stuff like that. Be thankful.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

ha ha ha.. Ghetto Birds. yeah I don't miss those either. Everytime something happened in my area they used light up the woods near where I lived. My reaction was "Ah H--L, what's going on now?" 2 things I worried about.
1. Was I going to run into the guy they are looking for
2. Were they going to think I'm the guy they are looking for.

Stuff is nuts. I don't miss where I used to live either. For anyone else that's never had to be around stuff like that. Be thankful.

Downtown and north town Long Beach in the 80s was the real deal. ilived there from age 9 to 19. I left after the L.A. Riots. Never missed it.