Thoughts on ATA TKD?

[dancingalone]

perhaps in the hopes that in doing so, it would help to unify their own country torn in two. This concept of unification was very important to the pioneers' generation, less so with today's generation in South Korea. The USA was their example, as weird as that sounds, but not so, if you acknowledge the many other concepts and philosophies borrowed from the west, specifically the US, which has military bases all over the country.

I can be obtuse at times, so I hope you can explain this to me. Why would unifying all taekwondo practitioners under one umbrella create unity for the Koreans? The division between North and South Korea is a political problem (probably a military one really). If all the people in the United States suddenly converted over how does that change anything about a hereditary dictatorship forcing its people to live in shackled isolation and poverty?

 

[puunui]

I can be obtuse at times, so I hope you can explain this to me. Why would unifying all taekwondo practitioners under one umbrella create unity for the Koreans? The division between North and South Korea is a political problem (probably a military one really). If all the people in the United States suddenly converted over how does that change anything about a hereditary dictatorship forcing its people to live in shackled isolation and poverty?

I don't know. Did you ever see the movie Silence of the Lambs? It came out through sessions with Dr. Lecter that when Clarice Starling was growing up, she was sent to live with her uncle who had a sheep and horse ranch in Montana. One morning she woke up to some awful screaming, so she went down to the barn and saw them slaughtering the spring lambs, so she grabbed one and ran off with it, but they caught up with her a few miles down the road and sent her to live in the lutheran orphanage. But she still heard the terrible screaming of the lambs. But if she could save poor Katherine from Buffalo Bill, then perhaps the terrible screaming would go away. Something like that. And it wasn't all of the people in the US, but rather if they could unify taekwondo in Korea, given all of the political problems associated with that, then perhaps there was hope in unifying north and south korea too, with its own political problems. Just trying to give an explanation as to why the concept of unification was so important to the pioneers. You are free to reject my explanation if you wish.

 

[puunui]

If I say I want to eat out and I don't have a preference, it is appropriate for me to say I want to eat at a restaurant for dinner. On the other hand if I definitely want gumbo, I should specify that I want to go to a Cajun restaurant. Or Vietnamese if I want a bowl of pho. It is the same with martial arts.

How about if you went to a cajun restaurant and they offered you pho? Or if you went to a Vietnamese restaurant and saw gumbo on the menu? What would be your thoughts on that?

 

[dancingalone]

I don't know. Did you ever see the movie Silence of the Lambs? It came out through sessions with Dr. Lecter that when Clarice Starling was growing up, she was sent to live with her uncle who had a sheep and horse ranch in Montana. One morning she woke up to some awful screaming, so she went down to the barn and saw them slaughtering the spring lambs, so she grabbed one and ran off with it, but they caught up with her a few miles down the road and sent her to live in the lutheran orphanage. But she still heard the terrible screaming of the lambs. But if she could save poor Katherine from Buffalo Bill, then perhaps the terrible screaming would go away. Something like that. And it wasn't all of the people in the US, but rather if they could unify taekwondo in Korea, given all of the political problems associated with that, then perhaps there was hope in unifying north and south korea too, with its own political problems. Just trying to give an explanation as to why the concept of unification was so important to the pioneers. You are free to reject my explanation if you wish.

I can understand the concept of a Korean 'spring zeitgeist'. Thank you for answering.

 

[dancingalone]

How about if you went to a cajun restaurant and they offered you pho? Or if you went to a Vietnamese restaurant and saw gumbo on the menu? What would be your thoughts on that?

I've never seen that pairing before despite the existance of a sizable Vietnamese community living in Louisiana and I would probably be suspicious of the offering. On the other hand, it would not be surprising to go to a nicer Vietnamese restaurant (not the typical, commonly seen cafes) and see French influenced dishes on the menu due to the long period of French colonization in Vietnam. In that case I would happily sample the food.

 

[Kinghercules]

Which is apparently the norm in Korea today. Given that he taught taekwondo from the mid fifties to 1959 and did not break off until a decade later, your initial comment...



...really does not hold up. I would suspect that a fifteen year instructor in an art that at the time was less than a quarter century old would have been just as qualified to break off as anyone else.


Okay. By the time H.U. Lee broke off, he had been involved in taekwondo for over a decade, possibly more than fifteen years. He had experience teaching both military and civilian students.

Being the baddest fighter in Korea, honestly, is not a qualification for breaking off and starting your own organization. Ability to codify a curriculum and to teach that curriculum to others, and to organize them into a coherent association, federation, or whatever, is what it takes. Choi and Lee both had the ability to found and run larger organizations. They also had the interest in doing so.

Really, none of what we are bantering back and forth about has any bearing on the major issues that most people have with the ATA. Most of the problems that people identify are centered more on the business model than anything else.

You're right.
And Ive been thinkin.....I guess TKD can be a general title. Just like karate. Cause you have Shotokan Karate, Kyokushinkai Karate, Goju Ryu Karate & etc......
So I can see him startin up his own style or group and callin it TKD.

It still doesnt negate the FACT that they are some....

 

[SPX]

Opinion yes, but fact? You will have to post figures for that to be proven, on MT you will find proof is wanted.

Well, let me see if I can gather them. . .

What on earth do you think I am ..'if it doesn't describe you'... you can't keep people out of a conversation on here, you can't choose who reads, who doesn't, who has an opinion and who doesn't. I was around in the 80s, 'doing' martial arts, Wado Ryu actually and there was no mystique just hard work.

I'm not trying to keep anyone out of anything, although you clearly have some problem with me, as you take exception to everything I say and argue at every opportunity.

Maybe I should say that anyone under 30 who has been interested in martial arts will understand. I grew up in the 80s. I was a kid. And like many kids, I loved Van Damme movies, Sho Kosugi ninja movies, kung fu movies. . . My friends and I ran around in the woods and "trained" by taking the stuff we saw on TV and practicing the techniques. Eventually this lead me into TKD. It was a fun time.

It was also a time where the martial arts were surrounded by a mystique, not just for kids, but also for many adults. It was a boom period for karate, kung fu, TKD etc and it wasn't until MMA came along and shattered along of preconceptions about TMAs that it really dissolved.

Now would you please quit fighting with me about stuff? If you don't want to just talk to me about discuss martial arts, then feel free to ignore me. But if we simply HAVE to argue, then fine. I will.

The continent of Europe covers a large proportion of this planet, there are over 50 countries in Europe so only a small proportion then, not worth mentioning in a 'global' context. 'Cable' is a big thing I believe in America, it's not however that widely used elsewhere so in 50 countries at least it would be surprising if anything in cable rated highly. Besides most people watch it on their computers about which I'm saying nothng as I believe it's not exactly legal lol!

Well like any industry, it's largely judged by it's biggest players.

 

[SPX]

Really? When I think TKD my mind usually reflects to board breaking and flying side kicks. So if I was to go into an ATA school and that is what I would be lead to believe that is what is being taught.

I think that most regular people who know nothing about martial arts aside from what they see on TV think of TKD as a fighting system. It's something that you study to learn to fight, and then you can beat guys up like they do in the movies.

 

[Kinghercules]

frontin
Urban slang. To put up a facade or make appearances, typically to impress or in some way deceive to maintain image.



Wikipedia.
Taekwondo (태권도; 跆拳道; Korean pronunciation: [tʰɛkwʌndo])[a] is a Korean martial art and the national sport of South Korea. In Korean, tae (태, &#36294 means "to strike or break with foot"; kwon (권, &#25331 means "to strike or break with fist"; and do (도, &#36947 means "way", "method", or "path". Thus, taekwondo may be loosely translated as "the way of the hand and the foot."

It combines combat techniques, self-defense, sport, exercise, and in some cases meditation and philosophy. In 1989, Taekwondo was the world's most popular martial art in terms of number of practitioners.[1] Gyeorugi (pronounced [ɡjʌɾuɡi]), a type of sparring, has been an Olympic event since 2000.

There are two main branches of taekwondo development, which are not necessarily mutually exclusive:

"Traditional taekwondo" typically refers to the martial art as it was established in the 1950s and 1960s in the South Korean military,[2] and in various civilian organisations, including schools and universities. In particular, the names and symbolism of the traditional patterns often refer to elements of Korean history, culture and religious philosophy. Today, the Kukkiwon, or World Taekwondo Headquarters is the traditional center for Taekwondo in Korea.
"Sport taekwondo" has developed in the decades since the 1950s and may have a somewhat different focus, especially in terms of its emphasis on speed and competition (as in Olympic sparring). Sport taekwondo is in turn subdivided into two main styles; One derives from Kukkiwon, the source of the sparring system sihap gyeorugi which is now an event at the summer Olympic Games and which is governed by the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF). The other comes from the International Taekwon-Do Federation (ITF).[3]

Although there are doctrinal and technical differences between the two main styles and among the various organizations, the art in general emphasizes kicks thrown from a mobile stance, employing the leg's greater reach and power (compared to the arm). Taekwondo training generally includes a system of blocks, kicks, punches, and open-handed strikes and may also include various take-downs or sweeps, throws, and joint locks. Some taekwondo instructors also incorporate the use of pressure points, known as jiapsul, as well as grabbing self-defense techniques borrowed from other martial arts, such as hapkido and judo.


There. Fixed that for you. For further improvement, please see this link.

LOL!!!
:lol:

 

[SPX]

<shrugs> I wouldn't dream to speak of what currently happens in Britain.

I know the general awareness of Olympic TKD within the US is next to nil. We get no coverage of it at all on television, cable or otherwise. No one follows the sport unless they are already involved in it somehow unlike popular spectator sports such as basketball, baseball, etc. Most of the TKD parents I have encountered would be hard pressed to think of TKD as anything other than something their kids do as a hobby - 'unfortunate' as that might be it is the reality here.

True AND unfortunate.

Even during the Olympics you have to go out of your way to find both TKD and Judo. I don't think they're ever actually aired on network TV, though I believe MSN has a live NBC feed that you can watch it on. But there's no commentary and no real production value.

 

[SPX]

If there is an interest in popularizing Olympic TKD to the masses, some changes need to be made. It's clearly missing something now.

I wonder why it was that TKD was chosen in '88 and not another martial art.

 

[SPX]

The UFC took off in the US when they aired the first The Ultimate Fighter show to unexpectedly high ratings. Not sure if TKD can ride the same wave - it would take a lot of rebranding/marketing to give TKD the same younger male appeal.

I would love to see a TKD reality show like TUF or The Contender. I would watch it for sure.

 

[puunui]

Even during the Olympics you have to go out of your way to find both TKD and Judo. I don't think they're ever actually aired on network TV, though I believe MSN has a live NBC feed that you can watch it on. But there's no commentary and no real production value.

Taekwondo at the 1988 Olympics was shown on NBC. I taped it all and still have the vhs tapes from that. The first time taekwondo was shown on american tv was I believe in 1981 on ABC's Wide World of Sports. They showed a couple of matches from the World Games which was in Santa Clara, California. Taped that too.

 

[dancingalone]

I wonder why it was that TKD was chosen in '88 and not another martial art.

Because it was in Seoul and I believe the host country gets to pick a demonstration sport, and so TKD was the obvious selection.

I would love to see a TKD reality show like TUF or The Contender. I would watch it for sure.

I suspect we'd have a whole bunch of complaining on here about how the people on the show don't do real TKD or don't abide by the tenets of TKD. LOL.

 

[SPX]

Actually I see the reverse happening, that more and more people are seeking out Kukkiwon certification and the Kukkiwon way of doing things. There are a lot of reasons for this, the internet, youtube, old anti Kukkiwon, anti korean, anti sport types fading off while younger more progressive, less self defense oriented coming into their own, martial arts supply companies selling loads of kukkiwon oriented stuff, including cool flags, plates, stickers, uniforms, etc., kukkiwon coming to US to give seminars and dan tests, people taking taekwondo tours to korea, and any number of other personal reasons. In my own state, we had every single style or variation of taekwondo imaginable, and now today, the overwhelming majority are kukkiwon certified, are doing the kukkiwon poomsae and sparring under the wtf rules.

I'm sure it varies from place to place, but in my city most schools are ITF-based (ITF, USTF, or independent teaching the Chang Hon forms). Then there are the ATA schools. Then the WTF schools.

 

[puunui]

I'm sure it varies from place to place, but in my city most schools are ITF-based (ITF, USTF, or independent teaching the Chang Hon forms). Then there are the ATA schools. Then the WTF schools.

What area are you from?

 

[SPX]

Taekwondo at the 1988 Olympics was shown on NBC. I taped it all and still have the vhs tapes from that. The first time taekwondo was shown on american tv was I believe in 1981 on ABC's Wide World of Sports. They showed a couple of matches from the World Games which was in Santa Clara, California. Taped that too.

'81, ah, the year I was born. In fact, 30 years ago to the day.

I tried finding both TKD and Judo on TV in '08. The best I could do was find NBC's MSN stream, where I think they showed a live feed of every sport. It wasn't like watching it on TV, though. You don't get the commentary or the razzle dazzle.

 

[SPX]

What area are you from?

Salt Lake City, UT

 

[SPX]

Because it was in Seoul and I believe the host country gets to pick a demonstration sport, and so TKD was the obvious selection.

Oh yeah, that makes sense.

I wonder if there has ever been much discussion to make Karate an Olympic sport. It seems that Shotokan-style competition would fit in well.

I suspect we'd have a whole bunch of complaining on here about how the people on the show don't do real TKD or don't abide by the tenets of TKD. LOL.

LOL. Maybe. That would make it all the more entertaining.

 

[puunui]

Salt Lake City, UT

Ok thanks. Utah wasn't a big supporter of the USTU. I know there are some kukki taekwondo instructors in your state, but not many.