Thoughts on ATA TKD?

[Tez3]

It's true, in general, that MMA has dropped somewhat in popularity over the past year to two years. This is especially obvious in the number of viewers that are tuning in for MMA on cable networks. The Ultimate Fighter is no longer doing great numbers, Strikeforce events aren't doing as well as they used to, Bellator isn't doing as well as it used to, etc. Also, MMA in Japan has all but completely collapsed. And advertisers are reporting fewer click-throughs now on MMA websites than they were getting a couple of years ago. At the same time though, the UFC is expanding wider than ever, having finally landed a deal with a non-cable network (FOX), having recently gone back to Brazil for the first time since 1998, and about to go back to Japan for the first time since 1997.

To be honest, I really miss the 80s. Martial arts in general still had a mystique surrounding them that just doesn't exist today. We may have all been delusional about "teh deadly kung fu" and how awesome ninjas are, but it sure was a lot of fun.

What mystique? What's with the 'we' bit? Most people I knew in martial arts in the 80s were full contact karateka, nothing mysterious, just knock out kicks and punches. That was and is good fun not pratting around as ersatz ninjas.


MMA is rising in popularity in the UK and Europe with more promotions enjoying success every month. TUF was show business rather than MMA anyway, good riddance if that disappears. France and Eire have made it legal. East Europeans are loving it, are sending fighters over as we are to them.

When Daniel said that MMA doesn't seem as ever present I don't think he meant it's less popular but as he said it's found it's niche, people have stopped being 'shocked' by it so less (unfavourable) publicity so it doesn't seem to be all over the media as the devils own sport.

 

[SPX]

What mystique? What's with the 'we' bit? Most people I knew in martial arts in the 80s were full contact karateka, nothing mysterious, just knock out kicks and punches. That was and is good fun not pratting around as ersatz ninjas.

Oh, Tez. My good friend and, I'm beginning to think, arch-nemesis. . .

If my post didn't describe you then it wasn't for you. How's that?

When Daniel said that MMA doesn't seem as ever present I don't think he meant it's less popular but as he said it's found it's niche, people have stopped being 'shocked' by it so less (unfavourable) publicity so it doesn't seem to be all over the media as the devils own sport.

Maybe in Europe the situation is different, but on the global scene MMA is not showing the same kind of growth it did a couple of years ago. Like I said, ratings on free cable shows are down. Apparel sales are down. Click-throughs are down. This is a well-known fact in the industry. It's not my opinion.

 

[SPX]

I agree if you take away the sparring rules, you take away a lot of the technical differences - but frankly that would be a misrepresentation of the current realities of TKD styles. What about some things like 'badda' (sp) kicks that are bread and butter for the Olympic folks here on MT? It's definitely an adaption added precisely because of the ruleset they compete under and it has become part and parcel part of their style. There are surely other technical examples too. We can't say take away the sparring rules and say they are all the same without them. These sparring adaptations are integral differences after all - doing so is a bit like saying, at the risk of trolling, that all that separates a LDS from a Catholic is the Book of Mormon.

100% agree.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree if you take away the sparring rules, you take away a lot of the technical differences - but frankly that would be a misrepresentation of the current realities of TKD styles. What about some things like 'badda' (sp) kicks that are bread and butter for the Olympic folks here on MT? It's definitely an adaption added precisely because of the ruleset they compete under and it has become part and parcel part of their style. There are surely other technical examples too. We can't say take away the sparring rules and say they are all the same without them. These sparring adaptations are integral differences after all - doing so is a bit like saying, at the risk of trolling, that all that separates a LDS from a Catholic is the Book of Mormon.

As I said, different expressions of what is still essentially the same art, something that cannot be said of LDS and Catholicism. If you are going to use religions as an example, mainline Protestantism, Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodox would be a better fit.

And what the heck is a badda kick???

There are more and more examples with every year. The local Premier Martial Arts franchises teach a TKD heavily influenced by Krav Maga and they have kickboxing classes too. The ATA continues to evolve and so does the ITA (or whatever they call themselves now) - they're always adding more supplementary classes in KM, hapkido, Filipino arts, etc.

As I said to SPX, it is not a unified art; it simply hasn't broken apart completely.

It is already evolving more than we think sometimes driven by market forces. Kiddifying TKD is one example where contact is light or nonexistent and most everything else has also been appropriately sanitized. Making it more of a physical exercise effort is another as you allude to.

That is exactly what I meant. It is evolving, but the evolution is not driven by real world/practical effectiveness, but rather by competition peculiarities and market forces.

I do think there is more of a general awareness about being a 'complete' martial art now. Many of the professional teachers I interact with are very cognizant about what they do or don't teach and they generally do a good job of referring prospective students to training situations where they might be happier as students and consumers.

Yes, and I think that MMA is largely responsible for that.

I don't see actual Olympic TKD as being much of a market influence in of itself as a popularity driver. We already know Olympic TKD has next to no appeal to the US consumer. Where it might be a factor is where technical influences created as a result of the competition might make their way downstream to 'normal' TKD students.

Saying the word, 'Olympic' has the same magic in the mind of some people (suburban moms in particular) that saying black belt has in the minds of others. The popularity of TKD in the Olympics doesn't matter. It is the popularity of the Olympics that is capitalized on.

MMA seems to be doing ok as a spectator sport. I see a lot more coverage of UFC events in mainstream media sources like ESPN than I ever had before. '

I do agree the MMA/BJJ schools are not immune to the bad economy. A few of the least established grappling schools in my area have closed in the last year, although to be fair, the bigger ones are doing fine.

Just to clarify, I am not implying that MMA has dropped off in popularity. Only that it seems to have settled into the space that it has created in the MA world and is coexisting with other MAs. Kangs Blackbelt Academy has an MMA instructor and when I leave kendo class, I pass by and see that he is still going strong well after nine at night. I hope that he continues to do so.

In a bad economy, MA schools in general will suffer, be they MMA or TMA. Unfortunately, what will determine which schools survive is not necessarily the quality of the school (though it helps) but the business savvy of the school owner.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

When Daniel said that MMA doesn't seem as ever present I don't think he meant it's less popular but as he said it's found it's niche, people have stopped being 'shocked' by it so less (unfavourable) publicity so it doesn't seem to be all over the media as the devils own sport.

That is exactly what I was talking about. Popularity of the sport was not on my mind at all.

 

[SPX]

Just to clarify, I am not implying that MMA has dropped off in popularity. Only that it seems to have settled into the space that it has created in the MA world and is coexisting with other MAs.

Well it's popularity HAS declined somewhat among casual fans.

As for co-existing with other MAs, I think it has always done that, though Machida is largely to "blame" for getting MMA fans to chill out when it comes to recognizing the value of karate (and by extension, to some extent, TKD).

 

[Kinghercules]

In other words, he did what all the rest of them did at that time and self promoted. Choi did the exact same thing. Technically, so did all the rest of them, as most of them had Shotokan backgrounds.


I would not call my statements anything resembling a defense, vigorous or otherwise. My statements about the ATA are not anything that I would want said about my own studio.

No not all of them. Ki Whang Kim had trained in Japan and fought in Japan, trained in China and fought in China and trained & fought in Korea. That is one of the reasons why many Korean masters had mad respect for GM Kim. Tiger Kim had also had trained and fought in Korea. Him and GM Kim were very good friends. And by training I mean going thru the ranks.

 

[Kinghercules]

They did: they call their system Songham Taekwondo. They used Chang Hon forms prior to that.


What change the name from karate? No, though I would make the argument that they are out of line with kyokushin. But as I stated above, they changed that part of it. The system as it is taught today is out of line with Kukki taekwondo and Chang Hon taekwondo, but they changed the name to Songham taekwondo a couple of decades ago. They are a completely separate organization with a completely separate tournament circuit. Which incidentalally, is virtually nonexistent in DC according to the ATA website http://www.ataonline.com/schools/schoolsearch.asp. I have never seen one in Maryland, though supposedly, there is now one in North Potomac, which is not coincidentally, an affluent area. The next closest is Centreville in Northern Virginia, another nice suburban area. Your location shows you as being in DC, which means that you would have to try very hard to stumble into an ATA school.

If you have never set foot in an ATA school and only have Youtube to go on, you might want to dial back your criticism a notch. I'm not sticking up for the ATA. Search the board and look for threads about child black belts and find my posts. I don't pull any punches. However, most everything that you accuse the ATA of is rampant in martial arts in the USA.

One advantage to the ATA is that the organization is set up to be a family friendly environment promoting a martial arts themed athletic activity. Go into an ATA school and you know what you're getting into. There are plenty of KKW/WTF schools that have 'olympic this' and 'olympic that' splashed all through their literature but whose programs are just money making schemes for their owners, most of whom are tournament champions.

Outside of regurgitating known facts, I don't actively criticize the ATA. I have never trained or even set foot in an ATA school, so I do not have a knowledge base to make more than cursory observations.

No I wouldnt have known what I'll be gettin into. It says "Taekwondo" and so I would be thinkin about doin some real sparring. And lets be clear.....TKD hasnt always been just the focus on kickin. Because back in the 70's & early 80's that wasnt the case. Somewhere down the line they have made it into that. I and I think that is a said case. Because thats not what Ki Whang Kim had in mind when he talked about bringin the Korean arts together under TKD. Nor did Tiger Kim or Henry Cho.

But like I said....if you gonna change the philosophy and create a whole new set of forms then you need to change the name of the style. As a kid I didnt understand why some of the older BBs keep sayin "dis aint TKD." But know that Im older I see why. I believe GM Ki Whang Kim shouldve named his own style. They had created a whole new approach to fight and we didnt train or fight like TKD ppl.

 

[Tez3]

Oh, Tez. My good friend and, I'm beginning to think, arch-nemesis. . .

If my post didn't describe you then it wasn't for you. How's that?




Maybe in Europe the situation is different, but on the global scene MMA is not showing the same kind of growth it did a couple of years ago. Like I said, ratings on free cable shows are down. Apparel sales are down. Click-throughs are down. This is a well-known fact in the industry. It's not my opinion.

Opinion yes, but fact? You will have to post figures for that to be proven, on MT you will find proof is wanted.

What on earth do you think I am ..'if it doesn't describe you'... you can't keep people out of a conversation on here, you can't choose who reads, who doesn't, who has an opinion and who doesn't. I was around in the 80s, 'doing' martial arts, Wado Ryu actually and there was no mystique just hard work.

The continent of Europe covers a large proportion of this planet, there are over 50 countries in Europe so only a small proportion then, not worth mentioning in a 'global' context. 'Cable' is a big thing I believe in America, it's not however that widely used elsewhere so in 50 countries at least it would be surprising if anything in cable rated highly. Besides most people watch it on their computers about which I'm saying nothng as I believe it's not exactly legal lol!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No not all of them. Ki Whang Kim had trained in Japan and fought in Japan, trained in China and fought in China and trained & fought in Korea. That is one of the reasons why many Korean masters had mad respect for GM Kim. Tiger Kim had also had trained and fought in Korea. Him and GM Kim were very good friends. And by training I mean going thru the ranks.

They all ranked themselves above anything that they received abroad. Any of the founders who had trained outside of Korea broke off from their parent organizations either ranked themselves or were ranked by those around them to higher grades than they would have achieved within the original styles in which they trained. They had to; they were creating new organizations.

Haeng Ung Lee did not break off until 1969 and was involved with taekwondo for like a decade and a half. No idea when he was pronounced by ninth dan, nor am I sure when Ki Whang Kim was pronounced as such (he was ranked 3rd dan in Shudokan karate by Toyoma Sensei). What did he do that was so different from what any of the others did?

 

[dancingalone]

As I said, different expressions of what is still essentially the same art, something that cannot be said of LDS and Catholicism. If you are going to use religions as an example, mainline Protestantism, Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodox would be a better fit.

We'll have to disagree on this one. I see a real divergence as I look around the TKD landscape. We all practice different things, sometimes dramatically so. The curricula IS the art - as I've said many times before here, we get good at what we practice. Well by the same logic, if we practice different things, then our styles likewise are different too.

As I said to SPX, it is not a unified art; it simply hasn't broken apart completely.

It never has been a unified art, the efforts of the KTA, then General Choi, and now the KKW notwithstanding. Using the word broken implies that TKD was 'whole' at one point and I don't know that it ever has been. And I am more than fine with that. I like diversity.

And what the heck is a badda kick???

Basically a specific variation of a switch roundhouse kick. KKW guys like ATC and puunui have written about it before.

That is exactly what I meant. It is evolving, but the evolution is not driven by real world/practical effectiveness, but rather by competition peculiarities and market forces.

Those TKD styles that seek to graft on elements from other martial arts are trying to improve their effectiveness. It's hard to say how successful they will be as indeed martial artists in general just don't have the opportunities to test themselves compared to generations past.

Saying the word, 'Olympic' has the same magic in the mind of some people (suburban moms in particular) that saying black belt has in the minds of others. The popularity of TKD in the Olympics doesn't matter. It is the popularity of the Olympics that is capitalized on.

That may be the case. In my experience, most people looking to train in TKD or any other martial art know nothing about the Olympics in connection with TKD. They think of figure skating or gymnastics when the five colored rings come up.

 

[Tez3]

We'll have to disagree on this one. I see a real divergence as I look around the TKD landscape. We all practice different things, sometimes dramatically so. The curricula IS the art - as I've said many times before here, we get good at what we practice. Well by the same logic, if we practice different things, then our styles likewise are different too.



It never has been a unified art, the efforts of the KTA, then General Choi, and now the KKW notwithstanding. Using the word broken implies that TKD was 'whole' at one point and I don't know that it ever has been. And I am more than fine with that. I like diversity.



Basically a specific variation of a switch roundhouse kick. KKW guys like ATC and puunui have written about it before.



Those TKD styles that seek to graft on elements from other martial arts are trying to improve their effectiveness. It's hard to say how successful they will be as indeed martial artists in general just don't have the opportunities to test themselves compared to generations past.




That may be the case. In my experience, most people looking to train in TKD or any other martial art know nothing about the Olympics in connection with TKD. They think of figure skating or gymnastics when the five colored rings come up.

Here certainly I think TKD and Olympics are thought of in the same way, the last Olympics brought TKD to the public's attention and great indignation when Sarah Stevenson was cheated out of her chance of a gold medla, it was all over the media. I've certainly seen articles and ads in the media now for TKD clubs saying they have or will train 'Olympic hopefuls'. In the run up to the Olympics in London there's a big focus on athletes who can win us medals, TKD is certainly being pushed as one of the sports that can do this so I'm afraid TKD and Olympics go together a lot now.

 

[miguksaram]

No I wouldnt have known what I'll be gettin into. It says "Taekwondo" and so I would be thinkin about doin some real sparring.

Really? When I think TKD my mind usually reflects to board breaking and flying side kicks. So if I was to go into an ATA school and that is what I would be lead to believe that is what is being taught. My point? Your preconceived notion of what something is or is not, has little bearing on what it actually is. So if something does not meet my preconceived notion of what it is, should I tell them to change their name or should I instead broaden my horizon on what something is or is not. Plus, if you signed a contract without first finding out what you would be getting, then frankly you are an idiot (note: using a general term of 'you' not specifically targeting anyone).

And lets be clear.....TKD hasnt always been just the focus on kickin. Because back in the 70's & early 80's that wasnt the case. Somewhere down the line they have made it into that. I and I think that is a said case. Because thats not what Ki Whang Kim had in mind when he talked about bringin the Korean arts together under TKD. Nor did Tiger Kim or Henry Cho.

You could not be more wrong on this.
First Exibit A taken in the early 80's:

Exhibit B taken in the the 60's:

And finally Exhibit C taken in early 60's of HC Hwang:

TKD has not changed its focus in what it does, it has simply evolved in the way it does it. I am curious as how you know the mindset of GM Ki Whang Kim, GM Tiger Kim or GM Henry Cho?

But like I said....if you gonna change the philosophy and create a whole new set of forms then you need to change the name of the style. As a kid I didnt understand why some of the older BBs keep sayin "dis aint TKD." But know that Im older I see why. I believe GM Ki Whang Kim shouldve named his own style. They had created a whole new approach to fight and we didnt train or fight like TKD ppl.

Do not confuse style with system. As it has already been pointed out there are several different form of TKD floating out there. Just as there are a multitude of different types of karate out there. I learn and teach Shorei-ryu Karate. Should I tell a Goju stylist that he cannot call his art karate because his forms and philosophy are different than mine? Of course not. ITF-TKD and KKW-TKD may be different styles but they are still based off the system of TKD.

Perhaps GM Ki Whang Kim should have developed his own style, but I would still gather to say that whatever he called it, he would have still tied to the system of TKD.

As far as GM Ki Whang Kim

 

[dancingalone]

Here certainly I think TKD and Olympics are thought of in the same way, the last Olympics brought TKD to the public's attention and great indignation when Sarah Stevenson was cheated out of her chance of a gold medla, it was all over the media. I've certainly seen articles and ads in the media now for TKD clubs saying they have or will train 'Olympic hopefuls'. In the run up to the Olympics in London there's a big focus on athletes who can win us medals, TKD is certainly being pushed as one of the sports that can do this so I'm afraid TKD and Olympics go together a lot now.

<shrugs> I wouldn't dream to speak of what currently happens in Britain.

I know the general awareness of Olympic TKD within the US is next to nil. We get no coverage of it at all on television, cable or otherwise. No one follows the sport unless they are already involved in it somehow unlike popular spectator sports such as basketball, baseball, etc. Most of the TKD parents I have encountered would be hard pressed to think of TKD as anything other than something their kids do as a hobby - 'unfortunate' as that might be it is the reality here.

 

[Tez3]

<shrugs> I wouldn't dream to speak of what currently happens in Britain.

I know the general awareness of Olympic TKD within the US is next to nil. We get no coverage of it at all on television, cable or otherwise. No one follows the sport unless they are already involved in it somehow unlike popular spectator sports such as basketball, baseball, etc. Most of the TKD parents I have encountered would be hard pressed to think of TKD as anything other than something their kids do as a hobby - 'unfortunate' as that might be it is the reality here.

It's a shame that it gets no coverage, I'm not a fan of Olympic TKD but it's nice when Brits get recognition for doing well so I would have thought the American media would give some recognition when American sportsmen and women do well. Everyone likes to know when their sports people do well on the world stage.
It's ashame too that you don't get coverage or more sports, we get Eurosport channels, we were watching the last Winter Olympics and have found some more sports we like watching. Eurosport shows a huge variety of sports and I expect the London Olympics to have good coverage. You may be able to pick it up through the computer which means you can watch all the sports that usually get missed as well as the martial arts ones of TKD and Judo.

 

[dancingalone]

It's a shame that it gets no coverage, I'm not a fan of Olympic TKD but it's nice when Brits get recognition for doing well so I would have thought the American media would give some recognition when American sportsmen and women do well. Everyone likes to know when their sports people do well on the world stage.

To be fair, people in judo and fencing get little coverage also, even though we've had a great like Mike Swain to follow if we wanted. There are many Olympic sports. Not all are compelling to American TV viewers regardless of the patriotism factor.

It's ashame too that you don't get coverage or more sports, we get Eurosport channels, we were watching the last Winter Olympics and have found some more sports we like watching. Eurosport shows a huge variety of sports and I expect the London Olympics to have good coverage. You may be able to pick it up through the computer which means you can watch all the sports that usually get missed as well as the martial arts ones of TKD and Judo.

I don't know that it's necessarily a shame. I remember TKD getting a bit of air time when it was first added to the Games. I believe TV network executives are more than happy to televise whatever receives good ratings. It would seem that we Americans would rather watch gymnastics, track and field, tennis, boxing, swimming, etc. when it comes to Olympic sports, even given the familiarity TKD has as a kid's activity in suburban America. So be it - the market has spoken.

If there is an interest in popularizing Olympic TKD to the masses, some changes need to be made. It's clearly missing something now.

 

[Earl Weiss]

But like I said....if you gonna change the philosophy and create a whole new set of forms then you need to change the name of the style. As a kid I didnt understand why some of the older BBs keep sayin "dis aint TKD." But know that Im older I see why. I believe GM Ki Whang Kim shouldve named his own style. They had created a whole new approach to fight and we didnt train or fight like TKD ppl.

Well, from some perspectives you have a very good point. I guess you simply need to understand another perspecive. For some, TKD was intended to be not only a unifying name but a unified system as well that could be taugh to the masses as such. This was no different than what Kano did in developing Judo, Funakoshi for Shotokan, Ueshiba for Aikido, etc.

The plan seemed to be to have a name, develop a system, and recruit and train instructors in this system.

Now, another perspective was to simply have an umbrella name which was also resisted in some circles. (Why an umbrella name for different systems was needed eludes me.) All sorts of pressures were used to get people to adopt the name for various systems. The most influential pressure seemed to be jumping on the popularity bandwagon. Anyone with any link to a Korean who kicked and punched adopted the name if they chose to jump on the bandwagon.


Although initial attemps at enforcing a single system met with huge resistance when General Choi did it, it seems although the KKW originaly was more inclusive of other systems they have been moving very strongly to the unified system approach.

You can decide which perspective carries more weight.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If there is an interest in popularizing Olympic TKD to the masses, some changes need to be made. It's clearly missing something now.

Outside of the WTF Universe people cannot identify with this typoe of sparring. For the life of me though I can't see that it has less public appeal than Curling, except that perhaps curling is much easier for the public to understand. It is similar with MMA. Those without a grappling background migh see a lot of purposeless rolling around while the knowledgeable spectator will see the knolwedge and athleticism employed while various finishing holds are attempted and countered.

The key to more TV Time for almost any athletic event is simple. Get Sponsorship dollars by convincing them that their association with this activity will sell product / services and then make it work. TV stations / netowrks make $ from the advertising, not the competition. For years MMA had trouble getting sponsors due to negative aspects, and then seemingly "Manly" products like Harley Davidson and Budweiser took a chance.

 

[dancingalone]

Outside of the WTF Universe people cannot identify with this typoe of sparring. For the life of me though I can't see that it has less public appeal than Curling, except that perhaps curling is much easier for the public to understand. It is similar with MMA. Those without a grappling background migh see a lot of purposeless rolling around while the knowledgeable spectator will see the knolwedge and athleticism employed while various finishing holds are attempted and countered.

Curling had the attractive Scandinavian competitors. Forgive me the company I keep, but I've heard that remark more than once, and I even read a short news article on the web about it where a network exec said they got a lot of live positive feedback from viewers so they just kept on airing curling more and more. They had never planned initially to give it that much coverage.

The key to more TV Time for almost any athletic event is simple. Get Sponsorship dollars by convincing them that their association with this activity will sell product / services and then make it work. TV stations / netowrks make $ from the advertising, not the competition. For years MMA had trouble getting sponsors due to negative aspects, and then seemingly "Manly" products like Harley Davidson and Budweiser took a chance.

The UFC took off in the US when they aired the first The Ultimate Fighter show to unexpectedly high ratings. Not sure if TKD can ride the same wave - it would take a lot of rebranding/marketing to give TKD the same younger male appeal.

 

[Kinghercules]

They all ranked themselves above anything that they received abroad. Any of the founders who had trained outside of Korea broke off from their parent organizations either ranked themselves or were ranked by those around them to higher grades than they would have achieved within the original styles in which they trained. They had to; they were creating new organizations.

Haeng Ung Lee did not break off until 1969 and was involved with taekwondo for like a decade and a half. No idea when he was pronounced by ninth dan, nor am I sure when Ki Whang Kim was pronounced as such (he was ranked 3rd dan in Shudokan karate by Toyoma Sensei). What did he do that was so different from what any of the others did?

Isnt that what you do when you create your own style?
So the master of Ji Do Kwon was suppose to stay a 4th dan in Shotokan?
Something I always wondered. Because if I started my own school today with a 4th dan in TKDTSD and a 2nd dan in Goju Ryu. I would consider myself a 6th dan, right? Make sense to me. LOL!

So maybe it depended on who you were trained by. Ki Whang had trained under Toyama had to carry some kinda weight with the Koreans. From what I can recall the Korean Taekwondo Association use to be the Korean Tangsoodo Association and Ki Whang Kim had got promoted by their committee first back in the 60's and later by the Korean TKD Association to 9th dan in '71.