Break down the difference between ITF and WTF TKD for me. . .

[SPX]

It seems that there's a power sacrifice, though. Coming up and then hooking won't be nearly as strong of a move as if you come around and stay circular the whole way. But maybe that's considered a worthwhile sacrifice for the speed gained?

 

[Earl Weiss]

The instructor got his black belt from either the ITF or the ICTF, not 100% sure, and he told me that's the style he teaches but he is not associated and his students tell me they spar non contact. I'd bet insurance for contact sparring would be very expensive for an unassociated school.



QUOTE]

People say all sorts of stuff. Maybe true, maybe not.

FWIW my liability insurance has nothing to do with the organization.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

It seems that there's a power sacrifice, though. Coming up and then hooking won't be nearly as strong of a move as if you come around and stay circular the whole way. But maybe that's considered a worthwhile sacrifice for the speed gained?

I think it has a lot to do with disguising what you are doing. I have a friend who does kukkiwon tkd and he chambers his leg the same for almost every kick so you cant tell what he is going to do. I must admit, when I spar someone doing the 'karate style' roundhouse it is really telegraphed, you can see it coming a mile off.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I remember reading somewhere that Steven and Mark Lopez don't know any of their poomsae anymore. Wouldn't surprise me. I know one guy who's heavy into competition and nothing else who has never learned a KKW poomsae. He had his black belt when we as a school integrated into the KKW and never learned a form because he didn't want to grade past 1st Dan. At the athletic level TKD guys train like boxers, kickboxers, whatever and not martial artists, and that's very prevalent in WTF Taekwondo.



The instructor got his black belt from either the ITF or the ICTF, not 100% sure, and he told me that's the style he teaches but he is not associated and his students tell me they spar non contact. I'd bet insurance for contact sparring would be very expensive for an unassociated school.



Really, this is it. Go see and try both schools.

If true about mark and steven lopez then that is quite sad. A tkdist does sparring, form, timber breaking and self defence, among many other things. It would be like playing cricket and saying 'I wont bat or bowl, I just wanna field", and then going around calling yourself a 'cricketer'. This is the effect I suppose of something becoming a 'sport'. How can you win a gold medal in TAEKWONDO but not know any of your forms, seems ridiculous from an outsider looking in.

 

[Twin Fist]

they are kickboxers, not TKD stylists anymore.

thats why i say WTF style should be called korean kickboxing

it simply isnt TKD

 

[SPX]

. . . these days you will meet black belts who haven't done a form in years and have been a 1st dan for almost a decade because they train to compete.

I know one guy who's heavy into competition and nothing else who has never learned a KKW poomsae. He had his black belt when we as a school integrated into the KKW and never learned a form because he didn't want to grade past 1st Dan.

Is there some advantage to staying at 1st Dan?

 

[puunui]

One difference I think is that WTF continues to grow, while the ITF continues to fragment. But other than the obvious fragmentation into separate organizations, are these separate organizations growing? Are there more ITF style practitioners today than say, ten years ago?

 

[puunui]

Is there some advantage to staying at 1st Dan?

The lower the rank, the less overall responsibility. I wanted to stay a 1st Dan way back when because I did not wish to get sucked into teaching responsibilities or open my own school, for example.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Is there some advantage to staying at 1st Dan?

I picked 1st Dan arbitrarily. In the case of my friend he stopped grading at 1st Dan because that allowed him to fight in black belt divisions and he had no use for anything else.

 

[ETinCYQX]

If true about mark and steven lopez then that is quite sad. A tkdist does sparring, form, timber breaking and self defence, among many other things. It would be like playing cricket and saying 'I wont bat or bowl, I just wanna field", and then going around calling yourself a 'cricketer'. This is the effect I suppose of something becoming a 'sport'. How can you win a gold medal in TAEKWONDO but not know any of your forms, seems ridiculous from an outsider looking in.

Well the sparring is the entire sport, to be fair (competition poomsae notwithstanding) its just not the entire martial art. There are lots of Judoka who haven't done a kata in 10 years too im
sure.

they are kickboxers, not TKD stylists anymore.

thats why i say WTF style should be called korean kickboxing

it simply isnt TKD

I'm not actually opposed to this but Judoka do the same thing, competitive Karate fighters do the same thing, BJJ players do it, "it" being neglecting everything outside of the sport ruleset. Why should a Taekwondo fighter be different?

 

[ETinCYQX]

It seems that there's a power sacrifice, though. Coming up and then hooking won't be nearly as strong of a move as if you come around and stay circular the whole way. But maybe that's considered a worthwhile sacrifice for the speed gained?

Possibly, I haven't really tested it. Avoiding telegraphing the move is a part of it too. The trick to our roundhouse kick is pivoting the planted foot, much like the side kick.

The instructor got his black belt from either the ITF or the ICTF, not 100% sure, and he told me that's the style he teaches but he is not associated and his students tell me they spar non contact. I'd bet insurance for contact sparring would be very expensive for an unassociated school.

People say all sorts of stuff. Maybe true, maybe not.

FWIW my liability insurance has nothing to do with the organization.

I have no reason to doubt the man nor any particular reason not to.

Interesting. My insurance is through Allsport and my student's yearly membership fees to the WTF federation here cover it. Also covers us for tournaments, seminars, etc.

 

[mastercole]

If true about mark and steven lopez then that is quite sad. A tkdist does sparring, form, timber breaking and self defence, among many other things. It would be like playing cricket and saying 'I wont bat or bowl, I just wanna field", and then going around calling yourself a 'cricketer'. This is the effect I suppose of something becoming a 'sport'. How can you win a gold medal in TAEKWONDO but not know any of your forms, seems ridiculous from an outsider looking in.

I know Jean and Steven Lopez. I spent a month with them in Europe. I observed their change of location training and often had discussions about Taekwondo, martial arts, self defense and other things. Jean along with other Olympic Training Center (OTC) members also visited my school, where they trained with my students. On weekends, I would also take a van load of my black belts to Ann Arbor, Michigan to train with OTC Team Members at Coach Han Won Lee's dojang. My nephew (a black belt student of mine) also went to Sugarland Texas and stay with the Lopez family for a month, going through there daily training regiment.

From that personal experience, I can tell you that the Lopez family are excellent martial artist, and they are Taekwondoin. It would be a huge mistake to think other wise, and doubt their Taekwondo technical ability. As for the question about Poomsae, yes, they do know Poomsae. What is so difficult about learning Poomsae? I would say they see Poomsae like most elite fighters do, as something for maybe later, or for their students. It was Jean's opinion to me that there is a big disconnect between Poomsae and sparring, and I agree, so there is no need to focus on it when you are trying to win the Olympics.

That said, can Steven Lopez drop into a front stance and shoot a power straight punch into someone gut and make it count? Try holding a target for Steven. When he strikes it, with a punch or a kick, you better be ready for some serious shock, traveling from the target into your body. He and other elite fighters can hit the target so hard, some have actually broken the holders hand or arm as a result of the shock wave.

That elite players do not focus on Poomsae is not ridiculous, its wise.

 

[SPX]

The lower the rank, the less overall responsibility. I wanted to stay a 1st Dan way back when because I did not wish to get sucked into teaching responsibilities or open my own school, for example.

Hmm, I see. How could you get "sucked in" to that? I mean, just because you have a certain kind of black belt they can tell you what to do?

 

[mastercole]

Kukkiwon Taekwondo has a standard curriculum point for just about everything. Most all of those standards were originally set by the KTA, before the Kukkiwon existed. The KTA was training in a small rented space and needed a central training and technique research center for Taekwondo, so they build the "KTA Central Gymnasium", which was the original name of the Kukkiwon when it opened in 1972. In 1973, they decided to rename the KTA Central Gymnasium to the "National Technique Center", or, Kukkiwon. Later, they decided the Korean name would remain Kukkiwon, but the official English name would be "World Taekwondo Headquarters."

In 1973, Taekwondo Team Leaders from a group of nations, including the USA, held a meeting inside the Kukkiwon during the 1st World Taekwondo Championships. At that meeting they voted to form the World Taekwondo Federation for the purpose of sanctioning and regulating international Taekwondo competitions.

Taekwondoin have to come to grips with the fact that the WTF does not set a standard of technique. They set the standards for competitions.

That said, the standard Kukkiwon round kick and back hook kick have been the same for the past 40 years, since before the Kukkiwon was created. The technique of those kicks have always had variations from the standard. Over time, those variations have been added to. Keep in mind those variations are not the standard.

 

[SPX]

Taekwondoin have to come to grips with the fact that the WTF does not set a standard of technique. They set the standards for competitions.

So does that mean there's no official guidelines for doing any particular technique?

 

[mastercole]

So does that mean there's no official guidelines for doing any particular technique?

No. It means the WTF does not set a standard of technique, the Kukkiwon does. Two very different organizations.

 

[SPX]

No. It means the WTF does not set a standard of technique, the Kukkiwon does. Two very different organizations.

I still don't get it. . .

 

[Cyriacus]

I still don't get it. . .

WTF sets up the Sports and has a Flag in the Dojangs.
The KKW is like the Council that makes all the Decisions for the Standards.

 

[puunui]

The KTA was training in a small rented space and needed a central training and technique research center for Taekwondo, so they build the "KTA Central Gymnasium", which was the original name of the Kukkiwon when it opened in 1972. In 1973, they decided to rename the KTA Central Gymnasium to the "National Technique Center", or, Kukkiwon.

I know prior to and during the construction of the Kukkiwon, the building was referred to as the "Danhan Taekwondo Hyophwe Choongang Dojang" which as you say was translated into "KTA Central Gymnasium". But I always thought that by the time the building actually opened, the name Kukkiwon had been decided upon. Perhaps it was a mistake to make that assumption. I tried to look up the answer in the old Taekwondo Gyegan magazines (the KTA magazine started by Dr. Un Yong Kim) and the closest I could find was in the March 1973 issue where they refer to the building as "Kukkiwon". Flipping through the old magazines, I found some interesting articles on taekkyon, specifically baekjae taekkyon, as well as an article on GM SON Dukki. I'll try and scan it can email it to you so you can have it translated. Probably some good information in there for your continuing taekkyon research. Also amazing all the people visiting the Kukkiwon back in those days, people like GM NAM Tae Hi, GM SON Duk Sung, etc.

 

[puunui]

From that personal experience, I can tell you that the Lopez family are excellent martial artist, and they are Taekwondoin. It would be a huge mistake to think other wise, and doubt their Taekwondo technical ability. As for the question about Poomsae, yes, they do know Poomsae.

I agree with your opinion that the Lopez family are Taekwondoin. Steven especially, which is why I promoted him to Kukkiwon 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Dan and paid the promotion test fee for him too. He got his Kukkiwon 1st Dan from the USTU and I believe USAT gave him a USAT 6th Dan.