Thoughts on ATA TKD?

[SPX]

That is like saying firearm training is not adequate as a sole means of Self defense so we should add empty hand self defense as part of firearm training. It would really be a misnomer. You can teach TKD as a striking curriculm for self defense and BJJ as the grappling curriculum. That won't make the grappling TKD, nor will it make the striking BJJ, and there is no reason it should.

Honestly, I'm thinking in terms of convenience. Maybe I want to be primarily a striker, but I don't want to be completely lost if I'm in a bar and some guy gets through my punches to initiate a clinch. If that's the case, just a basic grappling game (some standing throws, a bit of ground work, a basic knowledge of body mechanics, like I said before essentially a white belt's level of judo knowledge) would go a long way to filling that hole that exists.

But it kind of sucks to have to take a whole other couple of days out of my week to go to a completely different place and pay an extra monthly fee to study a full system like judo or BJJ when all I want are some basics. In fact, I'd say that the hassle of having to do all of the above is probably enough that a lot of people will just not do it. So why not add a little bit of this material into TKD?

Or if you don't want to officially add it into TKD, then I think it would be good for instructors to develop a basic grappling program to teach alongside TKD. Again, it doesn't have to an in-depth system. The goal doesn't have to be to become a black belt level grappler. It could actually be kind of like the ATA grappling certification programs but, you know, better.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Honestly, I'm thinking in terms of convenience. Maybe I want to be primarily a striker, but I don't want to be completely lost if I'm in a bar and some guy gets through my punches to initiate a clinch. If that's the case, just a basic grappling game (some standing throws, a bit of ground work, a basic knowledge of body mechanics, like I said before essentially a white belt's level of judo knowledge) would go a long way to filling that hole that exists.

. The goal doesn't have to be to become a black belt level grappler. It could actually be kind of like the ATA grappling certification programs but, you know, better.

We are on the same page. Due to my backgrounf I have a strong grappling element in my curriculum anf the organization recently implemented a ground tactics course which I attended. However, neither the organization nor I represent those elements to be TKD.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You're right.
And Ive been thinkin.....I guess TKD can be a general title. Just like karate. Cause you have Shotokan Karate, Kyokushinkai Karate, Goju Ryu Karate & etc......
So I can see him startin up his own style or group and callin it TKD.

It still doesnt negate the FACT that they are some....

....MA business people who have really learned to exploit the suburban family market and make money with taekwondo and other grafted on programs. From what I understand, if you're a school owner, their organizational support is quite good.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Honestly, I'm thinking in terms of convenience. Maybe I want to be primarily a striker, but I don't want to be completely lost if I'm in a bar and some guy gets through my punches to initiate a clinch. If that's the case, just a basic grappling game (some standing throws, a bit of ground work, a basic knowledge of body mechanics, like I said before essentially a white belt's level of judo knowledge) would go a long way to filling that hole that exists.

But it kind of sucks to have to take a whole other couple of days out of my week to go to a completely different place and pay an extra monthly fee to study a full system like judo or BJJ when all I want are some basics. In fact, I'd say that the hassle of having to do all of the above is probably enough that a lot of people will just not do it. So why not add a little bit of this material into TKD?

Or if you don't want to officially add it into TKD, then I think it would be good for instructors to develop a basic grappling program to teach alongside TKD. Again, it doesn't have to an in-depth system. The goal doesn't have to be to become a black belt level grappler. It could actually be kind of like the ATA grappling certification programs but, you know, better.

Or you could just take hapkido.

 

[Kinghercules]

....MA business people who have really learned to exploit the suburban family market and make money with taekwondo and other grafted on programs. From what I understand, if you're a school owner, their organizational support is quite good.

Yeah Ive worked at a few schools that were like that and they are sad. And I think these schools and owners should be called out for bein fake. And like I said the ATA is in their own little world but whats gonna happen when those ppl step outside of that world? Most of my conflicts havent happened where I live but always when Im hangin out or when I was in college. I just think to take an art that was developed for defense and offense and turn it into a what they have (and the Olympic crap too) is sad.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Or you could just take hapkido.

I consider myself a Hapkido "Dabbler" . Having said that I have not seen a lot of groundwork in Hapkido. Sure, it shows you how to take the other guy down and control him, but as far as what to do if things have gone horribly wrong and you find yourself rolling around in the mud, the blood and the beer, ... not so much.

 

[dancingalone]

I consider myself a Hapkido "Dabbler" . Having said that I have not seen a lot of groundwork in Hapkido. Sure, it shows you how to take the other guy down and control him, but as far as what to do if things have gone horribly wrong and you find yourself rolling around in the mud, the blood and the beer, ... not so much.

Agreed. Aikido as generally taught has the same issues there as hapkido.

 

[puunui]

I consider myself a Hapkido "Dabbler" . Having said that I have not seen a lot of groundwork in Hapkido. Sure, it shows you how to take the other guy down and control him, but as far as what to do if things have gone horribly wrong and you find yourself rolling around in the mud, the blood and the beer, ... not so much.

Hapkido does have ground techniques, someone has you in a mount choking you, and so forth. There are also some judo grappling defense. But like you said, it is not a lot.

 

[dancingalone]

Honestly, I'm thinking in terms of convenience. Maybe I want to be primarily a striker, but I don't want to be completely lost if I'm in a bar and some guy gets through my punches to initiate a clinch. If that's the case, just a basic grappling game (some standing throws, a bit of ground work, a basic knowledge of body mechanics, like I said before essentially a white belt's level of judo knowledge) would go a long way to filling that hole that exists.

But it kind of sucks to have to take a whole other couple of days out of my week to go to a completely different place and pay an extra monthly fee to study a full system like judo or BJJ when all I want are some basics. In fact, I'd say that the hassle of having to do all of the above is probably enough that a lot of people will just not do it. So why not add a little bit of this material into TKD?

Or if you don't want to officially add it into TKD, then I think it would be good for instructors to develop a basic grappling program to teach alongside TKD. Again, it doesn't have to an in-depth system. The goal doesn't have to be to become a black belt level grappler. It could actually be kind of like the ATA grappling certification programs but, you know, better.

I have a friend who runs a competing dojang. A while back he solicited my advice on adding exactly this kind of material to his curriculum. After some research and experimentation, he ended up taking the Combat Hapkido route. At some point in the future, he plans to integrate some BJJ as well. I'm supposed to sit on some testing boards at his dojang in 2012 so I guess I'll see first hand how successful the integration has been for his students.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yeah Ive worked at a few schools that were like that and they are sad. And I think these schools and owners should be called out for bein fake.

Fake in what way? And what is your firsthand experience with the ATA? If you've said over the past twelve pages, my apologies, but I was under the impression that you have no firsthand experience whatsoever. One of the reasons that I avoid saying anything beyond what is generally known is that I don't have firsthand experience with them.

And like I said the ATA is in their own little world but whats gonna happen when those ppl step outside of that world?

They'll probably spend the majority of their time going to and from work and complaining about the price of gasoline and groceries, the same as the rest of us. You act as though going to an ATA school will somehow make you more likely to get mugged, beaten up, or raped. The reality is that the vast majority of people have no training at all. At least the ATA folks are in better condition than the average American.

You had brought up the subject of rape and fights that are just 'comin' at ya' earlier in this thread. You apparently live in the DC area, so you should know what I am talking about when I say that if want to avoid being a potential rape victim, stay the hell out of Rock Creek Park when you jog or cycle unless you are with friends. Put forethought into where you park when you go shopping and stay the heck off of your cell phone when walking back to your car. With online shopping, you can avoid the malls altogether. Just those things will drastically reduce your chances of being raped by a stranger. As for people you know, establish very clear personal boundaries and good habits in dealing with people around you. Most of self defense is mental, probably about 99%.

If you don't want fights comin' at ya, stay the hell out of the night club areas and don't frequent the gogo clubs (for those who don't live in DC, gogo is a type of music, not a topless bar). Don't get 'gutsy' when someone cuts you off; unless theres a collision, just be happy that you don't have to deal with the insurrance company and be on your way. Most of self defense is mental, probably about 99%.

I live in the DC area and used be in DC frequently back when DC was the "Murder Capitol of the World" according to the news. The single incident that I had would have been avoided if I had taken my own advice. Yes, I came out on top and the would be mugger was sent running. The fact is that if I had taken my own advice regarding forethought in parking the car, the incident would never have happened.

In fact, all of the post-high school scrapes that I have had would not have occurred if I had taken the advice that I give people now. I started taking that advice about twenty two years ago. Magically, the only time that I have had to use my martial arts has been when I slipped on black ice and successfully used break-falling skills.

Most of my conflicts havent happened where I live but always when Im hangin out or when I was in college.

Well, that should tell you something. Choose your hangouts with greater care. I do. And I spent several years learning self defense with a former ROK special army instructor.

I just think to take an art that was developed for defense and offense and turn it into a what they have (and the Olympic crap too) is sad.

How is it not defense and offense? Striking in tournament, regardless of the rule set, is fencing; as in defence and offence. That is where the term fencing comes from. Boxing, kickboxing, sport karate, point/stop, continuous, full contact, light contact or semi contact, its all fencing.

If you want students to learn skills that will save their lives, teach them the mental. Getting back to that ATA class content, look at what most of the kid oriented schools tout: fitness, discipline, self control, confidence, and good self image. Ever notice that disciplined people with good self control who carry themselves with confidence and have a good self image tend to not be victims as often? There is a reason for that: predators choose their victims because they project 'victim.'

Fitness means that you are capable of retaliation or effective flight and you look like you may present a challenge. Discipline and self control are inclusive of good decision making. Confidence and good self image mean that you are less likely to place yourself in unhealthy situations. Predators choose their victims based on how easy a target they appear to be and whether or not they place themselves in situations that are favorable to the predator. Such as jogging alone in Rock Creek Park.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I consider myself a Hapkido "Dabbler" . Having said that I have not seen a lot of groundwork in Hapkido. Sure, it shows you how to take the other guy down and control him, but as far as what to do if things have gone horribly wrong and you find yourself rolling around in the mud, the blood and the beer, ... not so much.

What groundwork I learned in hapkido was purloined from BJJ and/or wrestling.

 

[puunui]

You had brought up the subject of rape and fights that are just 'comin' at ya' earlier in this thread. You apparently live in the DC area, so you should know what I am talking about when I say that if want to avoid being a potential rape victim, stay the hell out of Rock Creek Park when you jog or cycle unless you are with friends. Put forethought into where you park when you go shopping and stay the heck off of your cell phone when walking back to your car. With online shopping, you can avoid the malls altogether. Just those things will drastically reduce your chances of being raped by a stranger. As for people you know, establish very clear personal boundaries and good habits in dealing with people around you. Most of self defense is mental, probably about 99%.

I don't know how it is in DC, but here most assaults, including sexual assaults, especially sexual assaults involving minors, are done by perpetrators who know their victims. However, like you state above, there are areas here to avoid as well, most instinctively know to avoid these types of places.

Personally, my experiences with the ATA has been positive. Mostly it is limited to California (GM Clint Robinson's crew), although there were a couple of instructors here who tried to make a go of it. GM Robinson has the distinction of opening more ATA schools than anyone. He was travelling all over the place setting up schools for the ATA. Now he is completely converted over to kukki taekwondo and is helping many other ATA or former ATA instructor get Kukkiwon certified. Last time I saw him, he said he was doing three hundred or more kukkiwon poom and dan recommendations per year, and that was only from his own 25,000 students. That doesn't include the other instructors he is helping.

 

[SPX]

Or you could just take hapkido.

Maybe you can correct my misconceptions, but from what I've seen of hapkido grappling, it's more focused on Aikido-style joint locks and throws then what I've described. How much actual groundwork is there? Do you learn anything about fighting from guard, how to sweep, how to pass guard, chokes etc?

 

[Cyriacus]

Maybe you can correct my misconceptions, but from what I've seen of hapkido grappling, it's more focused on Aikido-style joint locks and throws then what I've described. How much actual groundwork is there? Do you learn anything about fighting from guard, how to sweep, how to pass guard, chokes etc?

Im pretty sure they get Chokes and Sweeps - The others Im unsure of.
*Im also mostly replying so that I can set it up so that I get notified when someone Replies.

 

[SPX]

Im pretty sure they get Chokes and Sweeps - The others Im unsure of.
*Im also mostly replying so that I can set it up so that I get notified when someone Replies.

Bear in mind that I'm using the term sweeps in the Judo/BJJ sense, i.e. you have someone on top of you and sweep them into bottom position.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

[FONT=&quot]

I don't know how it is in DC, but here most assaults, including sexual assaults, especially sexual assaults involving minors, are done by perpetrators who know their victims. However, like you state above, there are areas here to avoid as well, most instinctively know to avoid these types of places.

It is the same. I think that a lot of people do not have a good sense of self and place themselves in situations where the people that they regularly associate with are not always the healthiest associations to have. Also, a lot of people write off inapproprate behavior on the part of others as simply being 'oh that's how he/she is' when in reality, these are warning signs.

As far as minors go, physical self defense is primarilly an issue when the assailant is a stranger. The problem with assailants, such as in the Catholic priest abuse scandal or cases of school teachers who are involved in abuse, the child is conditioned to obey such people and children usually do not have developed senses of what constitutes a specific warning signs. The child is generally defeated mentally long before the abuse becomes physical. Not to mention that regardless of what TKD school a kid goes to, adults usually have a definite advantage in size and strength.

Personally, my experiences with the ATA has been positive. Mostly it is limited to California (GM Clint Robinson's crew), although there were a couple of instructors here who tried to make a go of it. GM Robinson has the distinction of opening more ATA schools than anyone. He was travelling all over the place setting up schools for the ATA. Now he is completely converted over to kukki taekwondo and is helping many other ATA or former ATA instructor get Kukkiwon certified. Last time I saw him, he said he was doing three hundred or more kukkiwon poom and dan recommendations per year, and that was only from his own 25,000 students. That doesn't include the other instructors he is helping.

What do you think of their curriculum? I ask because you have had actual first hand experience and you are someone who's opinions on matters taekwondo carry weight in my eyes.[/FONT]

 

[Cyriacus]

Bear in mind that I'm using the term sweeps in the Judo/BJJ sense, i.e. you have someone on top of you and sweep them into bottom position.

Oh, right
Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[SPX]

[FONT=&amp]
Not to mention that regardless of what TKD school a kid goes to, adults usually have a definite advantage in size and strength.
[/FONT]

Right.

This is actually one point that I think is relevant to the discussion of child black belts. Now granted, I think that 6 years old or whatever is much too young to be a black belt. But I could see a 12 year old having the mental and physical maturity to have attained that rank. Often in such discussions, someone says, "Yeah, but do you really think they could defend themselves against an adult?!" I don't even think the point is relevant. A 12-year-old black belt should not be expected to be able to defend him/herself against an adult. A 12-year-old black belt should be able to defend himself against other 12 year olds.

 

[puunui]

[FONT=&amp]What do you think of their curriculum? I ask because you have had actual first hand experience and you are someone who's opinions on matters taekwondo carry weight in my eyes.[/FONT]

I am only going by what I have seen from GM Robinson's students, who I think are very good. Back in the 80's, I attending some open point tournaments and his student were always vying for the finals. I remember thinking they should compete at USTU events, because I think they had a chance to medal in the black belt sparring divisions and eventually make team. Then at some point GM Robinson converted completely to kukki taekwondo and are doing a good job there too. They did well at the Oakland Kukkiwon instructor course and I understand they compete at USAT events, and may have medaled in the black belt poomsae divisions at nationals. So they are very good. GM Robinson sets high standards for himself and his students. He is a textbook example of constant and never ending improvement.

The ATA has a well developed curriculum, with manuals for everything, including for each color belt level. I have about half a shelf of their materials and it seems high quality to me. The curriculum looks pretty standard to other taekwondo schools. I think that it would be relatively easy for ATA members to convert to kukki taekwondo. I think they would have an easier time than ITF members, who have to unlearn sine wave.

The ATA does have some schools in South Korea, or at least they used to. I remember watching tournaments at the Kukkiwon and there were some competitors who had ATA or Songahm patches on their dobok.

 

[SPX]

I have about half a shelf of their materials and it seems high quality to me.

That's a curious statement, considering you're not affiliated with the organization. Are you just interested enough in TKD as a whole that you try to learn everything you can?