New guy here, and I do ATA...

[andyjeffries]

I'd like to know myself. I had the impression that promotion in the ATA after a certain rank was dependent on you running a school and promoting a certain ratio of students yourself. Thus, a person who just wants to practice and improve themselves could not advance.

I see another reason for wanting to advance in rank but not run a school - if you don't have time to run your own school, instead choosing to spend your time helping various schools in your country (and other countries) improve. I know my Grandmaster prefers that path and it would have been a great shame if he'd been denied higher grades because he didn't have his own school.

 

[terryl965]

So many questions so I will try to answer them all to the best of my ability.

First, the ATA is very helpful. We have a website that offers us quarterly material for camps, activities, seminars, new student specials and what not. Very similar to MAIA. You don't have to use the stuff but it's there, and done for you. You change the date/time to fit your school, print it off and you have posters for events.

Each quarter they break down marketing/instruction/management. It's helpful. If you have run a successful martial arts school it's a no brainer and a lot of it you would already be doing. If you're not as business savvy or just busy, it's a great resource. I use the banners/posters all the time. So much easier than reinventing the wheel.

Ok, instructors.

The ATA has an instructor manual that is given to students when they decide they want to start being an instructor. Students beginning to train in their collar are given a red collar to start with. This is considered an instructor trainee.

There are three levels after that:
Red/Black - Level 1
Black/Red/Black - Level 2
Black Collar. - Level 3 (Certified)

Students who test for red/black have to know all the curriculum from white belt-yellow belt. Level 2 is knowing everything from white to purple belt and level 3. certified is doing all of the color belt curriculum and up to what ever rank of black belt you are. To add on, not only curriculum but also class room management skills and teaching concepts.

Most of these tests are done nationally through the ATA. ATA does allow your instructor to certify you for the first 2 levels if they have done the proper training and have the proper rank. To be certified black collar you have to either do it at a national event or have it done by someone who is a master.

To be a level 3 certified instructor you have to be the minimum age of 18 and have completed the previous two levels. Again, every ATA school is different in what they allow and not allow to teach at their school. This is not only ATA as I can imagine.

Some schools may allow a red/black collar to teach some classes, some may allow a red collar. A lot of time students/instructors will know past the curriculum they are "collared" for but since you are only allowed to test one collar per time it takes a while to get Black.

After you receive your Black Collar you are supposed to recertify. This has to be done before you can test for your next rank.

I hope that clearly answers the question. Mainly, the ATA has training, a rank system, and a manual for instruction.

I would like to know the answer to the question a few pages ago, that is a simple one that has not been address yet or I have not seen it. How much does everything cost that is up in the list above? I am being told that they are not a money making machine so is all these services ofered to you for free? I know NAPMA and other groups are making money selling this stuff. How much does each collar stripe cost and I would imagine a new uniform as well since the collar has been changed? How much is it to get certified so you can become ancertified instructor? Believe me not trying to kill the ATA because all orgs need to make money but I am being told that they are not this money making machine when the ATA scool down the street is telling me it is about making nothing but money and if he would have known what he knows today he would have never bought into them 20 plus years ago.

 

[auxiliary]

You have to be a level 3 instructor to test for 4th degree. I believe they just changed it within the last year or two where you can test if you are a level 2 instructor but I am not 100% sure on it.

Ok, I am getting into an area I don't know 100% because I am not that rank so I will try my best to get it. Once you get fourth degree you have to have leadership points to test past that. Maybe it's 5th degree. There are a bunch of options to get leadership points. Some include, judging at a tournament, going to seminars, participating in events, having students and juniors under you. I know there are more, but I don't know exactly what they are. So you can see here you can still get points needed to test from not having a school. Again, I'm not in this situation so I could be wrong on some of the facts.

You do pay ATA a fee. It normally comes out from our testing fees. The collar testings are a fee. Normally around $100 or so. The level three is a little bit more. You do not pay extra from using the resources that ATA offers us.

If that guy doesn't like the ATA I don't know why he's still in it. Why be in something and complain the entire time?

 

[andyjeffries]

You have to be a level 3 instructor to test for 4th degree. I believe they just changed it within the last year or two where you can test if you are a level 2 instructor but I am not 100% sure on it.

OK, so at some point in the structure you have to be a certified instructor as well as your rank and you have to get points and pass some course to be certified.

That's very interesting, thank you for posting.

 

[hungryninja]

I would like to know the answer to the question a few pages ago, that is a simple one that has not been address yet or I have not seen it. How much does everything cost that is up in the list above? I am being told that they are not a money making machine so is all these services ofered to you for free? I know NAPMA and other groups are making money selling this stuff. How much does each collar stripe cost and I would imagine a new uniform as well since the collar has been changed? How much is it to get certified so you can become ancertified instructor? Believe me not trying to kill the ATA because all orgs need to make money but I am being told that they are not this money making machine when the ATA scool down the street is telling me it is about making nothing but money and if he would have known what he knows today he would have never bought into them 20 plus years ago.

Former ATA instructor here (was in it for over 20 years). I hope to chip in what I know: I believe some of that information regarding regional instructor camps can be readily found on ATA's website. I'm not sure how much the license fees are though. ATA HQ does get a chunk of the testing fees. You don't necessarily need a new uniform, you can just sew the collar stripes on your current uniform. ATA makes money, but as with any other org or business, that is not their only goal.

 

[hungryninja]

You have to be a level 3 instructor to test for 4th degree. I believe they just changed it within the last year or two where you can test if you are a level 2 instructor but I am not 100% sure on it.

Ok, I am getting into an area I don't know 100% because I am not that rank so I will try my best to get it. Once you get fourth degree you have to have leadership points to test past that. Maybe it's 5th degree. There are a bunch of options to get leadership points. Some include, judging at a tournament, going to seminars, participating in events, having students and juniors under you. I know there are more, but I don't know exactly what they are. So you can see here you can still get points needed to test from not having a school. Again, I'm not in this situation so I could be wrong on some of the facts.

You do pay ATA a fee. It normally comes out from our testing fees. The collar testings are a fee. Normally around $100 or so. The level three is a little bit more. You do not pay extra from using the resources that ATA offers us.

If that guy doesn't like the ATA I don't know why he's still in it. Why be in something and complain the entire time?

Yes, once you're a 4th degree, in order to test for higher rank you need the points. You don't have to be a school owner, but it is very difficult for a non-school owner (especially if one is not a chief instructor of a school) to get those points in a timely manner.

 

[terryl965]

You have to be a level 3 instructor to test for 4th degree. I believe they just changed it within the last year or two where you can test if you are a level 2 instructor but I am not 100% sure on it.

Ok, I am getting into an area I don't know 100% because I am not that rank so I will try my best to get it. Once you get fourth degree you have to have leadership points to test past that. Maybe it's 5th degree. There are a bunch of options to get leadership points. Some include, judging at a tournament, going to seminars, participating in events, having students and juniors under you. I know there are more, but I don't know exactly what they are. So you can see here you can still get points needed to test from not having a school. Again, I'm not in this situation so I could be wrong on some of the facts.

You do pay ATA a fee. It normally comes out from our testing fees. The collar testings are a fee. Normally around $100 or so. The level three is a little bit more. You do not pay extra from using the resources that ATA offers us.

If that guy doesn't like the ATA I don't know why he's still in it. Why be in something and complain the entire time?

What I understand is he is in a legal battle with them, he is doing everything trying to cut ties. I am not sure about why he is in this battle but he says he is and he cannot wait to be away from them.

Now for me I am not saying it is good or bad, every single business needs to make money so I do not have a problem with it. I do have a problem with how soft the ATA schools are around me, but like you said that is not every school and I will take your word on this because I know there are bad schools and instructor in every org. I am asking becaus eI hear so much negativaty about them from so many past people and you are here to answer and make us aware of good ATA school and I personally thank you for that.:asian:

 

[Balrog]

So then all you get is the right to use their style of TKD. Does support cost extra? In other words, if you need some marketing ideas can you call up HQ and they will send you some ad slicks that you can use or do you have to subscribe to their service in order to get that?

From what you state here, it was the forms of ATA that prompted you to go with them as opposed to ITF or KKW. Is my understanding correct?

ATA provides marketing materials to us. All we have to do is download it.

I started originally in GM Jhoon Rhee's organization, learning the Chang Hon forms (Chon-ji, etc.). The Songahm style forms are more complex and build upon one another. I prefer them, but YMMV.

 

[Balrog]

OK, so can you be a master (6th Dan in ATA, right?) and not be a certified instructor? If not, are you restricted from becoming a master until you certify, or automatically certified upon reaching a certain grade? If you can be a master but not instructor certified, are you not allowed to teach. Does the same apply to an 8th Dan, for example, if they are uncertified?

Thanks for the info...

No. ATA's philosophy follows the guideline that rank carries responsibility. If you want higher rank, you have to step up and shoulder more responsibility, so you are not allowed to test for 3rd Degree unless you have become at least a trainee instructor. You are not allowed to test for 4th Degree unless you have made at least level 1 certification. You are not allowed to test for 5th Degree unless you are a level 3, fully certified instructor.

A Master is an instructor of instructors, so it makes sense that you have to be an instructor first.

 

[Balrog]

I'd like to know myself. I had the impression that promotion in the ATA after a certain rank was dependent on you running a school and promoting a certain ratio of students yourself. Thus, a person who just wants to practice and improve themselves could not advance. Likewise if you're not a school or club owner, but you are a senior BB in a school, you also could not advance beyond a certain point.

Correct me if I am wrong.

ATA was trying to find a way to "remove the politics" from the testing requirements and make it performance based. They started by using the number of students in your testing lineage (your school plus all your juniors school). They have since refined that to a point accumulation system (90 points per year for every year of rank), where your testing numbers provide a percentage of the point requirement and you earn the rest through activities: judging at tournaments, attending continuing education seminars, serving as guest judges at other schools' testings, etc.

For non-school owners, it is assumed that they are teaching in the school(s), so the promotional requirement for them is based on the school owner. They are "credited" with the percentage of points from the school owner's testing numbers, but they have to earn the rest on their own. For example, if I have a 3rd Degree who wants to test for 4th and I am pulling down 50 points a year for testing numbers, then to make his 270 required points, he would have to earn 40 points a year on his own.

 

[Balrog]

I would like to know the answer to the question a few pages ago, that is a simple one that has not been address yet or I have not seen it. How much does everything cost that is up in the list above? I am being told that they are not a money making machine so is all these services ofered to you for free?

A lot of services are free, but not all. Sure, there are costs, but they are not (IMNSHO) exorbitant. Certification camps run about $450, but given that you have plenty of lead time for them, you can earmark the money over the course of a year.

... but I am being told that they are not this money making machine when the ATA scool down the street is telling me it is about making nothing but money and if he would have known what he knows today he would have never bought into them 20 plus years ago.

Please don't confuse bad business practices with the style of Taekwondo. Yes, we have some money-grubbers; any large organization does. Unfortunately, it's the money-grubbers that give any organization a bad name.

 

[terryl965]

A lot of services are free, but not all. Sure, there are costs, but they are not (IMNSHO) exorbitant. Certification camps run about $450, but given that you have plenty of lead time for them, you can earmark the money over the course of a year.

Please don't confuse bad business practices with the style of Taekwondo. Yes, we have some money-grubbers; any large organization does. Unfortunately, it's the money-grubbers that give any organization a bad name.

I appreciate your responses and accept them, I wish he did not have such a bad experience with them. I always keep an open mind abouit orgs because you never know who you may meet and become friends with. I am glad you have had a great experience withthe ATA, it helps hearing positive feedback as well.

 

[Balrog]

I appreciate your responses and accept them, I wish he did not have such a bad experience with them. I always keep an open mind abouit orgs because you never know who you may meet and become friends with. I am glad you have had a great experience withthe ATA, it helps hearing positive feedback as well.

Thank you!
<bowing while typing>

 

[andyjeffries]

No. ATA's philosophy follows the guideline that rank carries responsibility. If you want higher rank, you have to step up and shoulder more responsibility, so you are not allowed to test for 3rd Degree unless you have become at least a trainee instructor. You are not allowed to test for 4th Degree unless you have made at least level 1 certification. You are not allowed to test for 5th Degree unless you are a level 3, fully certified instructor.

Thank you for that. It's very interesting.

A Master is an instructor of instructors, so it makes sense that you have to be an instructor first.

So given this philosophy, is there ever a rank where you are not allowed to hold it unless you've ranked a student to one of these "instructor levels"? What I mean is, for example, are you only allowed to hold an 8th Dan when one of your students has been accepted as a level 1 instructor? If you're an instructor of instructors, is that enforced?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You have to be a level 3 instructor to test for 4th degree. I believe they just changed it within the last year or two where you can test if you are a level 2 instructor but I am not 100% sure on it.

Ok, I am getting into an area I don't know 100% because I am not that rank so I will try my best to get it. Once you get fourth degree you have to have leadership points to test past that. Maybe it's 5th degree. There are a bunch of options to get leadership points. Some include, judging at a tournament, going to seminars, participating in events, having students and juniors under you. I know there are more, but I don't know exactly what they are. So you can see here you can still get points needed to test from not having a school. Again, I'm not in this situation so I could be wrong on some of the facts.

You do pay ATA a fee. It normally comes out from our testing fees. The collar testings are a fee. Normally around $100 or so. The level three is a little bit more. You do not pay extra from using the resources that ATA offers us.

If that guy doesn't like the ATA I don't know why he's still in it. Why be in something and complain the entire time?

What are leadership points and how are they accrued?

Daniel

 

[hungryninja]

What are leadership points and how are they accrued?

Daniel

You need a certain # of leadership points/credit in order to test for higher rank (5th or higher). You can earn them through various ways: testing numbers, new member numbers, tournament judging (regionals, nat'ls, worlds), regional testing judge, instructor camps, protech camps, business seminars, instruction seminars, program/mat'l development, overseas activities (list above are ATA hosted). You must also satisfy time in rank (points are earned throughout this time).

 

[Balrog]

So given this philosophy, is there ever a rank where you are not allowed to hold it unless you've ranked a student to one of these "instructor levels"? What I mean is, for example, are you only allowed to hold an 8th Dan when one of your students has been accepted as a level 1 instructor? If you're an instructor of instructors, is that enforced?

Not per se. The masters, senior masters, etc. are the ones who run things like the instructor certification camps, training seminars, etc., but there is no direct requirement that masters have certified instructors under them. But by the time you make 6th Degree and go through the Master's training, you're looking at 15-20 years of teaching and it's almost impossible to not have produced several certified instructors in that time.

 

[Balrog]

What are leadership points and how are they accrued?

Daniel

The requirement is to earn 90 points a year for each year of your mandatory time in rank. For example, 4th Degree has to have 4 years in rank before testing for 5th and during that time needs to earn at least 360 points.

Points are earned by looking at the number of students testing in your lineage, your tournament judging activity, being a testing judge in other schools, seminars attended, etc. If you are active in the association, it's difficult to not earn the points. For example, when I put in my application to test for 6th Degree, I needed 450 points. I submitted a total of 657 and I'm sure some slipped through the cracks.