Thoughts on ATA TKD?

[Daniel Sullivan]

Isnt that what you do when you create your own style?

Style or organization.

So the master of Ji Do Kwon (Jidokwan) was suppose to stay a 4th dan in Shotokan?
Something I always wondered.

What he would have remained in Shotokan would have been dependent upon his continued trianing. What he became under the auspices of taekwondo was between himself and his peers.

Because if I started my own school today with a 4th dan in TKDTSD and a 2nd dan in Goju Ryu. I would consider myself a 6th dan, right? Make sense to me. LOL!

Dan grades are not cumulative. It would depend on, A) if you started your school and broke away from whatever organization had ranked you, and B) on what you were teaching; if you were teaching TKDTSD, then you would be fourth dan. If you were teaching Goju Ryu, you would be second.

So maybe it depended on who you were trained by. Ki Whang had trained under Toyama had to carry some kinda weight with the Koreans. From what I can recall the Korean Taekwondo Association use to be the Korean Tangsoodo Association and Ki Whang Kim had got promoted by their committee first back in the 60's and later by the Korean TKD Association to 9th dan in '71.

Really it depended on awarding rank appropriate to the role that the individual was going to have within the then new organization.

Inicdentally, I did not question GM Ki Whang Kim rank or how he received it. In the context of this conversation, GM Kim's qualifications are irrelevant.

What I want you to explain is why you feel that what GM Haeng Ung Lee did was in some way fraudulent, which is the accusation that you made of him earlier in the thread.

 

[Kinghercules]

Really? When I think TKD my mind usually reflects to board breaking and flying side kicks. So if I was to go into an ATA school and that is what I would be lead to believe that is what is being taught. My point? Your preconceived notion of what something is or is not, has little bearing on what it actually is. So if something does not meet my preconceived notion of what it is, should I tell them to change their name or should I instead broaden my horizon on what something is or is not. Plus, if you signed a contract without first finding out what you would be getting, then frankly you are an idiot (note: using a general term of 'you' not specifically targeting anyone).



TKD has not changed its focus in what it does, it has simply evolved in the way it does it. I am curious as how you know the mindset of GM Ki Whang Kim, GM Tiger Kim or GM Henry Cho?


Do not confuse style with system. As it has already been pointed out there are several different form of TKD floating out there. Just as there are a multitude of different types of karate out there. I learn and teach Shorei-ryu Karate. Should I tell a Goju stylist that he cannot call his art karate because his forms and philosophy are different than mine? Of course not. ITF-TKD and KKW-TKD may be different styles but they are still based off the system of TKD.

Perhaps GM Ki Whang Kim should have developed his own style, but I would still gather to say that whatever he called it, he would have still tied to the system of TKD.

As far as GM Ki Whang Kim

Because I grew up under GM Ki Whang Kim.

Your 3 videos: the 1st on is of a tournament in the 80's and I said things began to change in the 80's, sooooo.....what was the point of that one?
2nd video was of ppl sparring (playin around/demonstratin) in class not in a tournament.
3rd video...was of Hwang Kee....MDK......not TKD........hmmmmm......

Mike Warren went to the 1st TKD World Championships in Korea back in '73 and he told me that they use to kick and punch. In fact there is a pic of him on the Hall of Fame TKD website punching his Korean opponent dead in the chest.

 

[puunui]

While it is true that the KKW is the 'main' association with millions of members worldwide, I don't share your opinion about there being only one taekwondo. How can there be? What I learned as a Jhoon Rhee Texkwondo guy is rather different from the ATA curriculum my niece and nephew practic, even though both styles were the brain children of Chung Do Kwan men. On the other hand both systems are probably closer to each other than what is offered at my friend's dojang (lots of kicking focused drills and sparring).

And yet in the two examples you give, GM Jhoon Rhee and ATA, both liked to associate with kukki taekwondoin more than any other. In fact, ATA GM LEE Haeng Ung, towards the end of his life, was actively negotiating with the Kukkiwon to bring the ATA into the Kukkiwon fold. I know that some ATA instructors were already giving their students Kukkiwon certification in addition to ATA certification.

Instead of saying there is "one taekwondo", what I would say is that it is all taekwondo. Similarly, we have fifty states, with fifty different ways of doing things, but we are all Americans. Just because I do not speak with a southern accent doesn't make me any less of an American than if I did speak with one.

There are dozens and dozens of so-called TKD styles. Most likely are close to each other in training methodology, but I wouldn't assume that is true of all of them. It's not quite the same level of variation as you see in karate, but I think those days are coming, particularly in the United States where the KKW does not hold the monopoly/market leadership it does in other parts of the world.

Actually I see the reverse happening, that more and more people are seeking out Kukkiwon certification and the Kukkiwon way of doing things. There are a lot of reasons for this, the internet, youtube, old anti Kukkiwon, anti korean, anti sport types fading off while younger more progressive, less self defense oriented coming into their own, martial arts supply companies selling loads of kukkiwon oriented stuff, including cool flags, plates, stickers, uniforms, etc., kukkiwon coming to US to give seminars and dan tests, people taking taekwondo tours to korea, and any number of other personal reasons. In my own state, we had every single style or variation of taekwondo imaginable, and now today, the overwhelming majority are kukkiwon certified, are doing the kukkiwon poomsae and sparring under the wtf rules.

 

[Kinghercules]

Style or organization.


What he would have remained in Shotokan would have been dependent upon his continued trianing. What he became under the auspices of taekwondo was between himself and his peers.


Dan grades are not cumulative. It would depend on, A) if you started your school and broke away from whatever organization had ranked you, and B) on what you were teaching; if you were teaching TKDTSD, then you would be fourth dan. If you were teaching Goju Ryu, you would be second.


Really it depended on awarding rank appropriate to the role that the individual was going to have within the then new organization.

Inicdentally, I did not question GM Ki Whang Kim rank or how he received it. In the context of this conversation, GM Kim's qualifications are irrelevant.

What I want you to explain is why you feel that what GM Haeng Ung Lee did was in some way fraudulent, which is the accusation that you made of him earlier in the thread.

Oh ok...well I just think a 1st dan or a 2nd dan doesnt have enuff experience and knowledge to branch off and thats what he did and thats what Choi did.
And please dont tell me that their degrees were different than ours today because he was promoted to 1st dan in one year. And if you gonna brake away after gettin your 1st dan Im assumin that he mustve been the badest fighter in Korea. There was nothin else no one could teach him so maybe thats why he created his own tree.
So, thats what I think.

 

[puunui]

I don't see actual Olympic TKD as being much of a market influence in of itself as a popularity driver. We already know Olympic TKD has next to no appeal to the US consumer. Where it might be a factor is where technical influences created as a result of the competition might make their way downstream to 'normal' TKD students.

I don't see overly focusing on self defense being a market driver either. As for next to no appeal, I wouldn't say that. If that were true then, those who advertise that they are or were Olympic competitors or coaches wouldn't be doing as well as they do financially.

 

[puunui]

I don't know that it's necessarily a shame. I remember TKD getting a bit of air time when it was first added to the Games. I believe TV network executives are more than happy to televise whatever receives good ratings. It would seem that we Americans would rather watch gymnastics, track and field, tennis, boxing, swimming, etc. when it comes to Olympic sports, even given the familiarity TKD has as a kid's activity in suburban America. So be it - the market has spoken.

If there is an interest in popularizing Olympic TKD to the masses, some changes need to be made. It's clearly missing something now.

And yet, kukki taekwondo dojang are flooded with students, so much so that some instructors cannot keep up with the demand. the market indeed has spoken, not favorably towards self defense oreinted schools, in my opinion.

 

[dancingalone]

And yet in the two examples you give, GM Jhoon Rhee and ATA, both liked to associate with kukki taekwondoin more than any other. In fact, ATA GM LEE Haeng Ung, towards the end of his life, was actively negotiating with the Kukkiwon to bring the ATA into the Kukkiwon fold. I know that some ATA instructors were already giving their students Kukkiwon certification in addition to ATA certification.

I recall you telling me this before. This effort seems over or at least dormant though. The local ATA instructors who are highly ranked in their org knew nothing of GM HU Lee's thoughts in this direction.

The ATA is a healthy group with their own successful way of sparring and their own tournament circuit. Their level of contact is not in harmony with the full contact given in Olympic rules competition so there is little incentive to work towards merging, other than out of a intangible sense of unity.

As for Jhoon Rhee, what can I say? The curriculum I studied is nothing like the KKW requirements that my friends follow. I think I've been fairly clear that for me the curriculum is far more important than any feeling of connection or closeness. If we study different things, if we practice different things, well...

Instead of saying there is "one taekwondo", what I would say is that it is all taekwondo. Similarly, we have fifty states, with fifty different ways of doing things, but we are all Americans. Just because I do not speak with a southern accent doesn't make me any less of an American than if I did speak with one.

I like that, but does anything ever stop being taekwondo? If not, then it is truly a universal term and those other adjectives or nouns must be brought in to bring clarity into conversations. And in so doing, we tacitly recognize that there are different expressions of TKD that have the potential to diverge further if they have not already.

Actually I see the reverse happening, that more and more people are seeking out Kukkiwon certification and the Kukkiwon way of doing things. There are a lot of reasons for this, the internet, youtube, old anti Kukkiwon, anti korean, anti sport types fading off while younger more progressive, less self defense oriented coming into their own, martial arts supply companies selling loads of kukkiwon oriented stuff, including cool flags, plates, stickers, uniforms, etc., kukkiwon coming to US to give seminars and dan tests, people taking taekwondo tours to korea, and any number of other personal reasons. In my own state, we had every single style or variation of taekwondo imaginable, and now today, the overwhelming majority are kukkiwon certified, are doing the kukkiwon poomsae and sparring under the wtf rules.

I appreciate that is your perspective. In my market, other organizations have larger numbers of affiliated dojang. Even independent schools outnumber those KKW. Heck, I recently bought a dojang from my KKW-certified friend. My point? Taekwondo students can find happiness and success in a multitude of places.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't see overly focusing on self defense being a market driver either. As for next to no appeal, I wouldn't say that. If that were true then, those who advertise that they are or were Olympic competitors or coaches wouldn't be doing as well as they do financially.

Who said anything about self-defense in this thread? I didn't, at least on a direct basis.

And yet, kukki taekwondo dojang are flooded with students, so much so that some instructors cannot keep up with the demand. the market indeed has spoken, not favorably towards self defense oreinted schools, in my opinion.

??? I also don't know what this is in response to. By the way, I tend to think popular schools aren't popular because of the certifications their owners hold, but rather because their owners successfully offer what people want.

 

[puunui]

Those TKD styles that seek to graft on elements from other martial arts are trying to improve their effectiveness. It's hard to say how successful they will be as indeed martial artists in general just don't have the opportunities to test themselves compared to generations past.

From what I see and from my own experience, grafting on elements from other martial arts occurs when a practitioner is unable or unwilling to learn the entire content of their own original system. But that is like taking pieces from one jigsaw puzzle and force fitting those pieces into another puzzle. Sure you get less empty spaces like that, but the original puzzle ends up getting distorted.

 

[dancingalone]

From what I see and from my own experience, grafting on elements from other martial arts occurs when a practitioner is unable or unwilling to learn the entire content of their own original system. But that is like taking pieces from one jigsaw puzzle and force fitting those pieces into another puzzle. Sure you get less empty spaces like that, but the original puzzle ends up getting distorted.

Happens a lot regardless of the rationale for it. I teach kobudo at times at a local TKD school. Why? Well for starters TKD doesn't have a native weapons study within it.

Lots of people blend in hapkido. More recently, you've seen Krav Maga and kickboxing folded in. Considering TKD's eclectic roots, I don't see a reason to look down on people trying to improve themselves. And even aside from that, surely we can accept that some blendings might be more successful than others? Take my Jhoon Rhee TKD for example. Someone, perhaps one of Mr. Rhee's students, introduced a good deal of boxing influence into the style at one point. It's a good fit. It's not hard to imagine someone with this background learning clinchwork and elbows from another source to become even more effective.

Now granted we can say all this is found in TKD already. And so it is if one has the right teacher...

 

[puunui]

I like that, but does anything ever stop being taekwondo? If not, then it is truly a universal term and those other adjectives or nouns must be brought in to bring clarity into conversations. And in so doing, we tacitly recognize that there are different expressions of TKD that have the potential to diverge further if they have not already.

I don't know. Is there a point where one stops being an American? Do you think labels such as Italian American or Vietnamese American are appropriate, or is it better to simply say we are all Americans, in spite of what we look like and what we do and think?

I appreciate that is your perspective. In my market, other organizations have larger numbers of affiliated dojang.

Not if I have anything to do with it.

Even independent schools outnumber those KKW. Heck, I recently bought a dojang from my KKW-certified friend. My point? Taekwondo students can find happiness and success in a multitude of places.

This might be a local cultural thing, growing up thinking and believing in the idea of a lone star. And that's ok too.

 

[puunui]

Happens a lot regardless of the rationale for it. I teach kobudo at times at a local TKD school. Why? Well for starters TKD doesn't have a native weapons study within it.

Jidokwan GM YOON Kwe Byung wrote and published a book on the wooden staff in Korea. There is also I believe a dagger form from one of the kwan.

 

[puunui]

Lots of people blend in hapkido. More recently, you've seen Krav Maga and kickboxing folded in. Considering TKD's eclectic roots, I don't see a reason to look down on people trying to improve themselves.

Not looking down on anyone, just trying to explain why people graft stuff on. Or at least why I chose to graft stuff on, in my own martial arts journey. However, there came a point where I needed to let go of that stuff in order to fully appreciate the arts that I chose to focus on, arts which I keep separate as much as possible. My separation goes to the extreme where I even have separate friends for Taekwondo and Hapkido. When I am with taekwondo people, I only speak about taekwondo. Same with hapkidoin.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Oh ok...well I just think a 1st dan or a 2nd dan doesnt have enuff experience and knowledge to branch off and thats what he did and thats what Choi did.
And please dont tell me that their degrees were different than ours today because he was promoted to 1st dan in one year.

Which is apparently the norm in Korea today. Given that he taught taekwondo from the mid fifties to 1959 and did not break off until a decade later, your initial comment...

Ok besides the fact that its founder is a 123 instant BB...its just full of dirt

...really does not hold up. I would suspect that a fifteen year instructor in an art that at the time was less than a quarter century old would have been just as qualified to break off as anyone else.

And if you gonna brake away after gettin your 1st dan Im assumin that he mustve been the badest fighter in Korea. There was nothin else no one could teach him so maybe thats why he created his own tree.
So, thats what I think.

Okay. By the time H.U. Lee broke off, he had been involved in taekwondo for over a decade, possibly more than fifteen years. He had experience teaching both military and civilian students.

Being the baddest fighter in Korea, honestly, is not a qualification for breaking off and starting your own organization. Ability to codify a curriculum and to teach that curriculum to others, and to organize them into a coherent association, federation, or whatever, is what it takes. Choi and Lee both had the ability to found and run larger organizations. They also had the interest in doing so.

Really, none of what we are bantering back and forth about has any bearing on the major issues that most people have with the ATA. Most of the problems that people identify are centered more on the business model than anything else.

 

[miguksaram]

Because I grew up under GM Ki Whang Kim.

Are you his son, right hand man or most senior student? Growing up under someone doesn't always equate knowing them. Plus what about the other two? How do you justify knowing what their line of thoughts were?

Your 3 videos: the 1st on is of a tournament in the 80's and I said things began to change in the 80's, sooooo.....what was the point of that one?

Actually you said Early 70's and early 80's. The first footage I believe is '84 or '85. So when in the early 80's did this magically change to kicking?

2nd video was of ppl sparring (playin around/demonstratin) in class not in a tournament.

They were sparring how they would at a tournament. Do you think they spar one way in practice and another way at a tournament? Doesn't make much sense does it?

3rd video...was of Hwang Kee....MDK......not TKD........hmmmmm......

It is HC Hwang...not Hwang Ki. Two different people. Keep in mind that MDK split one side following the KKW and the other following Hwang Ki.

But hey...here is one from around early 70's:

Mike Warren went to the 1st TKD World Championships in Korea back in '73 and he told me that they use to kick and punch. In fact there is a pic of him on the Hall of Fame TKD website punching his Korean opponent dead in the chest.

You will have to refer me to that picture. All the ones I see of him punching are to the chest. Which is no different than what they do today.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Exactly!
ATA is frontin and they need to stop.

frontin
Urban slang. To put up a facade or make appearances, typically to impress or in some way deceive to maintain image.

Martial art=military art.
It wasnt always a sport.

Wikipedia.
Taekwondo (태권도; 跆拳道; Korean pronunciation: [tʰɛkwʌndo])[a] is a Korean martial art and the national sport of South Korea. In Korean, tae (태, &#36294 means "to strike or break with foot"; kwon (권, &#25331 means "to strike or break with fist"; and do (도, &#36947 means "way", "method", or "path". Thus, taekwondo may be loosely translated as "the way of the hand and the foot."

It combines combat techniques, self-defense, sport, exercise, and in some cases meditation and philosophy. In 1989, Taekwondo was the world's most popular martial art in terms of number of practitioners.[1] Gyeorugi (pronounced [ɡjʌɾuɡi]), a type of sparring, has been an Olympic event since 2000.

There are two main branches of taekwondo development, which are not necessarily mutually exclusive:

"Traditional taekwondo" typically refers to the martial art as it was established in the 1950s and 1960s in the South Korean military,[2] and in various civilian organisations, including schools and universities. In particular, the names and symbolism of the traditional patterns often refer to elements of Korean history, culture and religious philosophy. Today, the Kukkiwon, or World Taekwondo Headquarters is the traditional center for Taekwondo in Korea.
"Sport taekwondo" has developed in the decades since the 1950s and may have a somewhat different focus, especially in terms of its emphasis on speed and competition (as in Olympic sparring). Sport taekwondo is in turn subdivided into two main styles; One derives from Kukkiwon, the source of the sparring system sihap gyeorugi which is now an event at the summer Olympic Games and which is governed by the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF). The other comes from the International Taekwon-Do Federation (ITF).[3]

Although there are doctrinal and technical differences between the two main styles and among the various organizations, the art in general emphasizes kicks thrown from a mobile stance, employing the leg's greater reach and power (compared to the arm). Taekwondo training generally includes a system of blocks, kicks, punches, and open-handed strikes and may also include various take-downs or sweeps, throws, and joint locks. Some taekwondo instructors also incorporate the use of pressure points, known as jiapsul, as well as grabbing self-defense techniques borrowed from other martial arts, such as hapkido and judo.

Oh ok...well I just think a 1st dan or a 2nd dan doesnt have enough experience and knowledge to branch off and thats what he did and thats what Choi did.
And please don't tell me that their degrees were different than ours today because he was promoted to 1st dan in one year. And if you are going to break away after getting your 1st dan I'm assuming that he must've been the badest fighter in Korea. There was nothing else anyone could teach him so maybe that's why he created his own tree.
So, that's what I think.

There. Fixed that for you. For further improvement, please see this link.

 

[dancingalone]

Jidokwan GM YOON Kwe Byung wrote and published a book on the wooden staff in Korea. There is also I believe a dagger form from one of the kwan.

One of those lost bits unfortunately. By and large weapons just isn't practiced by taekwondoin today and those that do mostly have introduced it from another source like Okinawan or Filipino arts.

Not looking down on anyone, just trying to explain why people graft stuff on. Or at least why I chose to graft stuff on, in my own martial arts journey. However, there came a point where I needed to let go of that stuff in order to fully appreciate the arts that I chose to focus on, arts which I keep separate as much as possible. My separation goes to the extreme where I even have separate friends for Taekwondo and Hapkido. When I am with taekwondo people, I only speak about taekwondo. Same with hapkidoin.

I'm afraid I'm not that talented. I perform the Chang Hon hyung with a Goju flavor. Thus far however, I've been able to teach my TKD students and they have escaped the 'taint', likely because I don't teach them everything I personally practice.

I don't know. Is there a point where one stops being an American? Do you think labels such as Italian American or Vietnamese American are appropriate, or is it better to simply say we are all Americans, in spite of what we look like and what we do and think?

Both have their usages. If I say I want to eat out and I don't have a preference, it is appropriate for me to say I want to eat at a restaurant for dinner. On the other hand if I definitely want gumbo, I should specify that I want to go to a Cajun restaurant. Or Vietnamese if I want a bowl of pho. It is the same with martial arts.

This might be a local cultural thing, growing up thinking and believing in the idea of a lone star.

Independence is arguably an American trait also, not just a Texan one.

 

[puunui]

I'm afraid I'm not that talented. I perform the Chang Hon hyung with a Goju flavor. Thus far however, I've been able to teach my TKD students have escaped the 'taint', likely because I don't teach them everything I personally practice.

How about when you practice aikido? Are you kicking and punching like an Chang Hon or Goju stylist while wearing your hakama?

Independence is arguably an American trait also, not just a Texan one.

I would say that unification is also an american trait, first and foremost, given the first word in the name of our country, UNITED States of America.

 

[dancingalone]

How about when you practice aikido? Are you kicking and punching like an Chang Hon or Goju stylist while wearing your hakama?

Softness is something I strive for always. My expression of aiki is noticeably harder than my wife's, again due to my training background.

I would say that unification is also an american trait, first and foremost, given the first word in the name of our country, UNITED States of America.

Not so much if we look at the complete context of American history through the troubled governance under the Articles of Confederation and then the state's rights debate that culminated in the Civil War. Unity is something our nation has constantly struggled with and even today the recession has laid bare the stark contrast of interests between social and economic classes.

 

[puunui]

Not so much if we look at the complete context of American history through the troubled governance under the Articles of Confederation and then the state's rights debate that culminated in the Civil War. Unity is something our nation has constantly struggled with and even today the recession has laid bare the stark contrast of interests between social and economic classes.

Sure we fight and argue amongst ourselves, but push comes to shove, we stick together. Our greatest achievements as Americans were not times where we stood for individuality, but rather when we came together as a nation. We work together, acknowledging and in spite of our differences. The taekwondo pioneers are aware of this concept, and wished to unify taekwondo, like the USA unified, perhaps in the hopes that in doing so, it would help to unify their own country torn in two. This concept of unification was very important to the pioneers' generation, less so with today's generation in South Korea. The USA was their example, as weird as that sounds, but not so, if you acknowledge the many other concepts and philosophies borrowed from the west, specifically the US, which has military bases all over the country.

That is why it is so ironic that practitioners from the country which served as their example for unification are often the ones who scream the loudest regarding individuality.