American Taekwondo Association

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Originally posted by Zepp
That sounds a wee bit McDojoish if you don't mind my saying so. I understand the need for re-testing, but couldn't you just pay a membership fee directly to the organization?

A 2nd dan ranking should indicate that you have enough experience to train others (at least up until whatever rank comes before 1st dan in the ATA). What if you chose to begin teaching TKD, and you wanted your students to be affiliated with them; would they still require you to sign a contract with another instructor?

One can choose to send the membership fee to either the Organization directly, or through the instructor.

I could begin to train others in ATA, but I would have to redo the Instructorship training program. It consists of a certain number of hours teaching under your head instructor, and attending a certain number of training camps.

There may be additional classes that have been added since I completed the program. Those would have to be comleted in order for my Instructor title to be re-instated under ATA, but with my expired Dan rankings... I can't participate in it. If I were to re-instate my ranking, I could open my own school, or a club at a College campus... but I'm not interested in teaching.

Being that my ranking has expired, things may have changed in the ATA. So I'm not positive if thats still the way things are currently done.


:asian:

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt
Yes, it seems to be similar to a Driver's license, with an expiration date. I believe that by not reinstating my ATA membership, my Dan expires. I'm not exactly sure how it works, I haven't been to my ATA school in a long while... but I know that being a (expired) 2nd Dan, I can't attend any ATA events as such. No competitions, no TKD training, and etc. I would have to sign another contract for the term that my instructor chooses. I believe that would re-instate my Dan ranking. I would have to go through a mini-testing to show that I can still demonstrate the qualifications for 2nd Dan effeciently. I guess its the ATA's incentive to keep its students constantly participating in the art.

So please clarify something, if you were to go into any ATA dojang for a workout, would they still accept and respect your 2nd dan BB or not?
As far as I know, being that I'm KKW certified, if I were to go train at a WTF/KKW affiliated dojang they would still respect my dan rank even though I didn't earn it through their dojang... :asian:

 

[voxtemporalis]

So please clarify something, if you were to go into any ATA dojang for a workout, would they still accept and respect your 2nd dan BB or not?

Yup. We recently had a student from AZ come to CT on vacation. She trained with us for two weeks and then went back home. The only thing that you need to do is have your instructor call the dojang that you want to train at to let them know that you are comming. They would still respect anyone's dan ranking regardless of where it is earned.

~SB

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Okay, thanx for the info... :asian:

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
So please clarify something, if you were to go into any ATA dojang for a workout, would they still accept and respect your 2nd dan BB or not?
As far as I know, being that I'm KKW certified, if I were to go train at a WTF/KKW affiliated dojang they would still respect my dan rank even though I didn't earn it through their dojang... :asian:

Would this apply even though my Dan is expired?

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Your dan does not expire. Your NGB membership does. The two are not necessarily inter-related. Once you earn your dan, you are that dan, unless for some reason it is revoked, or you resign it. It may be ethical to resign if you no longer practice, but that is a totally separate topic.

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

I see. Just wondering, who is the new grandmaster? Is it still the Master Council? Or did they appoint someone as GM now?

 

[Kodanjaclay]

oops. I think we have a boo boo in communication. The WTF is who I was referring to, and I think you were referring to the ATA. I do not keep up with American organizations normally. Sorry.

 

[drunkenfist]

Here is a quick thought for all you guys....My TKD school does not have any affiliations to Itf,WTF,OR ATA........The Grandmaster said they were doing something to his art that he did not like.........
He lost most of his schools nationwide because they broke away and joined these organizations 20 years ago...People from our school are 1 million times more brutal than any of the other TKD schools around here.....He must be doing something right we have taken alot of tournaments by storm winning a good majority of the competitions....The owner of my school is from Korea...

 

[A.R.K.]

DF,

Alright partner, here we go

I agree with your instructor. Let me give you an example that is personal to me. I have a Dan in TKD but I have chosen not to go with WTF or ITF etc. Now my instructor in TKD is Disco here on the board. He is a registered Master in both WTF & WIF. I have three associates who are also registered Masters in WTF that have recognized my training thru my Instructor as well.

Now think about this for a moment. I have been promoted to X Dan in TKD by a registered WTF Master with the okey dokey of three other WTF registered Masters according to the requirements as set down by WTF. Yet another poster, who is no longer on this board, once told me my Dan was not legitimate because I was not registered with the WTF. According to him, if anyone's TKD was not WTF TKD...then it wasn't TKD at all. With all due respect, I beg to differ. If the training I or anyone recieved was according to set guidelines, especially if the instructor were WTF then the training is sound. To send the several hundred dollars for my Dan level to the WTF in no way changes, or enhances my training. That piece of paper doesn't change my skill level.

And let me say that if an individual chooses to go WTF, or anything else then that is great. They make a choice that is right for them. But to say their training is invalid because of lack of membership in a particular organization is IMHO wrong. Substandard training yes...a piece of paper, no.

I choose the WIF for reasons not related to TKD, however they have recognized my TKD as a side benefit. So I suppose my Dan may not be legite to some and to others it's fine. I can live with that because I know in my heart the skill is sound. And isn't that the point to begin with?

:asian:

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by A.R.K.

...Yet another poster, who is no longer on this board, once told me my Dan was not legitimate because I was not registered with the WTF. According to him, if anyone's TKD was not WTF TKD...then it wasn't TKD at all. With all due respect, I beg to differ.

Anbody who would post such an asinine statement, or believes such nonsense is ignorant IMHO.
I received my dan rank through the WTF-Kukkiwon, but so what, I'm well aware that we aren't the only TKD game in town.

One certainly DOES NOT need to be Kukkiwon dan certified to be a legit., worthy BB. I know, I've seen my share of non-WTF affiliated TKD practitioners and some of them are pretty damn good and polished MAtists... :asian:

 

[drunkenfist]

I don't know why we can't all be happy with our schools period.
Do you like your instructor? As long as you are happy with your training then nothing else matters.I personally don't care about affiliations,etc. My Grandmaster is great voted worlds fastest living kicker so I know my training is good.We had an ATA guy comeup once and sorry his forms were sloppy and he was very errogant.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

<<Yet another poster, who is no longer on this board, once told me my Dan was not legitimate because I was not registered with the WTF.>>

This person did not know what they are talking about.
In fact, Yee, Yong Woo did not have a WTF dan, until one was presented to him... I don't think he even claims it, yet he is one of the Founders of TKD. He founded JungDoKwan and currently serves as head of the KKW high dan promotions committee.

If you want to compete in KKW events, then YES you must have a KKW certification. If you have no desire to compete, then I fail to see how a Kukkiwon would help you, unless you intend to use it as a "quality" standard. If that is the case, it is important to note, that KKW has not been certified by any governmental agency, nor the ISO, for quality. In other words, they have not met the standards for Quality certification. Unless you are a quality professional you may not get what I am alluding to, but it is important.

 

[Disco]

Mr. Clay

A couple of questions for your consideration. There is a rumor that there is going to be a combined WTF/ITF Olympic team. Whats your impression on this? If this does happen, do you see a possible merging of styles, since GM Choi is now no longer with us?

Do you see the AAU becoming the new NGB for TKD in America?

On the Hapkido side of things, have you ever heard of a GM Youg Ki Song?

I see where you are scheduled for a seminar in TaeGukKwon. Is that a style of TKD or something else?

Interesting that you specify that the KKW is not sanctioned by the Korean Gov't or has meet guidelines for quality. Do you think that this effects or should effect certifications from the KKW?

Are the individual Kwans certified/sanctioned by the Gov't?

OK, I'll stop. Really did'nt mean to deluge you, but it's like eating chips. Can't eat just one:rofl:

Thanks for all your assistance.:asian:

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Sabum,

Let me begin by first clarifying one thing. Kukkiwon IS sanctioned by the Korean Government. It is not a certified Quality organization. They are two different things. Quality is a science, and is perpetrated by ISO on an international level, for example ISO 9000, or Air Guality which is defined by its own ISO (14001), and pertains to HVAC units and air quality classifications. In the United States the "official" Quality program is Baldrige and was passed into US las by Congressional act. Not the same thing, I think that I have shown.

I have heard that there would be a loosening of standards between the WTF and ITF; however, I do not know if that has taken place. I sincerely doubt that there would be a combined team at this time because Kyorugi is not a simple sport that anyone can just pick up. It takes training work, sweat and effort. I am not saying ITF people don't have that, but I doubt that in the short time that Major General Choi has been deceased, that they would have been able to develop an Olympic class athlete.

I am familiar with Song, Yong-Ki as he would be my great grandmaster as it were, though I have never trained with him. My current certification is in Haemukwan from Richard Hackworth. Dr. Hackworth trained in Grandmaster Song's Kwan in Korea. If memory serves, I believe he also serves, or served, as the personal trainer to the sultan of Brunie's son.

I am not sure about the current status of Kwan certification and government sanctioning. I believe that via membership in their NGB, this is a possibilty; however, I cannot answer this one accurately, as it is beyond the scope of my knowledge. I can say that it is common for people to have both Kukkiwon/KTA certification and Kwan certification.

I have been asked to do a seminar on Taegeukkwan. This is a tranlation of Taijiquan. I have been practicing this art for two decades, and I find that it offers a multitude of benefits. In fact Blue Cross Blue Shield of Florida just put out a brief blurb on its benefits.

Sabum, never feel as though you are bothering or overwhelming. i will be the first to admit that I do not know everything, and there has been numerous occasions where through dialogue such as this, I have learned new things. I enjoy learning and sharing. Please feel free to email me at any time at [email protected].

Finally, My name is Frank. Master and Mr. are both titles, and though a form of respect, I do not feel that they are necessary in such an informal environment as this. Please feel free to call me by my name. I know there are those who feel that I should always be called by my formal title, and this is fine. Just remember that master just means I'm getting older. (lol).

With warmest regards,

 

[Disco]

Kwan Jang Nim

 

[Damian Mavis]

Just a couple of things.

ARK, you are 10th degree in TKD?

Kodanjaclay, some sort of merging of one group of ITF with WTF is very likely. But it should probably be called "swallowing" of that ITF group since it is so small compared to WTF. ITF split into 3 major groups, one of them (North Korean group) is trying to work something out with the WTF and will probably be successful since it would be a political move to make North Korea happy. When that happens will that mean that ITF and WTF merged, nope, it means one small group became WTF as far as I'm concerned. The rest of ITF wants nothing to do with WTF or North Korea.

Drunkenfist, we are all proud of our school and our instructors but be careful dude, you come off as thinking your better than most other TKD artists.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Mr. Mavis,

I am confused. You said that the group in North Korea would merge with the WTF to make North Korea happy.

As far as I know there are no branches of the ITF in the ROK which is where Kukkiwon/WTA/KTA is located. The DPRK is North Korea. There is no relationship between the ROK and the DPRK save for a 50 year cease-fire, and a re-freezing of a once thawing relationship, thanks to Kim, Il-Jung, whom if I had to bet I would think would be certifiable with a Napoleonic complex, but that is another story.

I find it hard to believe that any branch of the ITF would willingly join the WTF. The styles are just too different. I think that would cause a whole lot of splintering within the affected ITF group.

Can you help me better understand your point?

 

[Galvatron]

Originally posted by Kodanjaclay
If you want to compete in KKW events, then YES you must have a KKW certification.

In the U.S. you no longer need Kukkiwon certification to compete in USTU events or on the olympic level.
The U.S. Olympic Committee ruled that requiring domestic amateur athletes to register with a foriegn government (which is basically what a Kukkiwon dan is) was a no-no and told the USTU to stop it.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Actually, that is beyond the scope of their power. There has been quite a bit or arguing over this very thing as it is direct violation of the Sports Act, i believe of either 1974 or 1978 wherein no American athlete can be forced to obtain recognition from a foreign body to compete on behalf of the US. To date, that has not been resolved as far as I know, and if you have a copy of any such decision, I would love to see it. Of course, what you indicated would only apply to the Olympics, and there are many more international events than that.

Let me know what you find/found out.

Thanks,