American Taekwondo Association

[A.R.K.]

ARK, you are 10th degree in TKD?

Damien, good Lord NO!!! I'm not a 10th Dan in anything. Not even American Realistic Karate...and I founded this discipline.

I hold a WIF 4th Dan in Han Moo Kwan. And that is as far as I will ever go as my focus is now on developing ARK as best as I'm able.

:asian:

 

[drunkenfist]

Damien I'm just better than the ones I deal with at my school because I like to try new things out.My instructor told me that the ATA guy was sloppy but he was mean none the less.If I thought I was good/knew everything I surely would'nt take classes anymore in my core art.I would'nt be able to hang with Tae Kwon Do without the other art.I feel that Tae Kwon Do lacks the most important aspects of training found in other arts.It's not really TKD in general because the art is still mostly very new.My school does not recognize other arts for anything nor encourages students to even look at them.I'm the only one that sneaks to a training hall to begin to learn what other people do.I have regard for my school but lets face it there are many other people out there that are better.If TKD had qi gong etc. it would be a very awesome art but it does'nt.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Ark, I don't know why but I thought you previously said "I have a X dan in..." Don't know why I saw a roman numeral X before.....


Kodanjaclay, it's not my point you need me to clarify it's current events and information you haven't received yet. Do you really not know what has happened the past few years in the ITF? Before General Choi died (you did know he passed away right?)he gave the ITF to North Korea, Master Choi (General Choi's son) knew this was coming and splintered off with all of us that wanted nothing to do with such an evil government. The Vienna group also splintered off as they wanted nothing to do with North Korea or Master Choi. There are now 3 major groups claiming to be ITF all headed by a different person. The North Korean group (run by a North Korean politician) is trying to use TKD as a political tool and is trying to get some sort of merging going on. Basically what you suggested was correct, the North Koreans getting the ITF caused the ITF to splinter.

By the way, there is ITF in South Korea, it is under Master Choi's organisation. And the great leader of North Korea is promoted as the "founder" of TKD instead of General Choi. Just threw in that last bit of information because it disgusts me.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Langdow]

Damian where does the US fit into this, I know GM Sereff was moving away at one point . . . have they started their own splinter or are they with one of the other 3 groups

And I also believe you did see an "X Dan" from ark, I think the context of it was "say I have a whatever dan from the WTF"

Confused me too

 

[Damian Mavis]

USTF under the Sereffs splintered off and they are on their own now, I don't think they still call themselves ITF. Some of USTF left them and came over to Master Choi's group.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Langdow]

Thanks Damian, clears up some confusion for me

 

[A.R.K.]

Damian,

I probably did post that I have 'X' Dan, I just figured it didn't matter what the actual degree was in that particular conversation so I put x in place of the degree number.

I'm actually a 'IV' Dan in TKD Never to be a V or higher

:asian:

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Damian,

I know that the ITF had put out much innuendo, and I know that none of the information they put out was substnatiated by any of my sources in the ROK, so I relegated it to heresay.

TKD is regulated in the ROK. The Masters I talked to said they would love to know where an ITF school is in the ROK. I suspect the government would as well.

All TKD schools, which openly propagate TKD in the ROK are supposed to be affiliated with the KTA, and the KTA is the Korean NGB. This is a matter of Korean law. After Choi's "treasonous" actions (in quotes because I believe that one to be debatable), Choi was removed from any history in Korea. No one would openly claim affiliation with him. Heck, after he forced the name change to TKD, there was a movement to get rid of him, with some of the Masters helping him to set up the ITF, but he had to give up any claim to TKD in the ROK. Grandmaster Uhm, Un-Kyu was a part of this movement.

If you have documentable evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it. As I mentioned, my sources in Korea do not substantiate what you have indicated.

 

[Galvatron]

I've heard about the ITF Dojang in the ROK also. They had photos of it, and some brief words about it on one of the many "official" ITF websites out there. I remember reading it and thinking "well, isnt that special".

I'll see if I can dig it up...

 

[Kodanjaclay]

thanks

 

[Galvatron]

www.itf-online.com

Read the June 8th, 2003 article on the ITF 'goodwill' trip to the ROK.
It's mentioned in there...they mention 'opening the first ITF dojang in Korea'

 

[Galvatron]

Originally posted by Kodanjaclay
Actually, that is beyond the scope of their power. There has been quite a bit or arguing over this very thing as it is direct violation of the Sports Act, i believe of either 1974 or 1978 wherein no American athlete can be forced to obtain recognition from a foreign body to compete on behalf of the US. To date, that has not been resolved as far as I know, and if you have a copy of any such decision, I would love to see it. Of course, what you indicated would only apply to the Olympics, and there are many more international events than that.

Let me know what you find/found out.

Thanks,

I checked with my former TKD instructor, Master Ron Berry concerning this. He is a Kukkiwon 6th Dan and certified USTU Referee.
He said that Kukkiwon's are no longer required to compete amateurly by a U.S. Athlete. All you need is a Dan certificate from any TKD school. The USTU still requires a Kukkiwon though to referee.
The USTU has begun it's own Dan certification program though and will eventually most likely begin the requiring of a USTU Dan to compete/officiate.

Anyhow, that's what I've been able to dig up...still looking for a website or something that mentions it.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Kodanjaclay, which parts are hard to believe? Everything I said or just the part about ITF in South Korea? And I don't mean to sound like a jerk but why are you talking to WTF people about ITF and expecting informed answers? And why do you infer that ITF lies and you need proof of our history?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Mithios]

Oh,chang jin run's the itf-korea org. It is with itf, headed by Choi, jung hwa from canada!! ITF Tae Kwon-Do has been in south Korea (rok) for a year maybe 2 ?? Go to itf-korea.org. Mithios

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Kodanjaclay, which parts are hard to believe? Everything I said or just the part about ITF in South Korea? And I don't mean to sound like a jerk but why are you talking to WTF people about ITF and expecting informed answers? And why do you infer that ITF lies and you need proof of our history?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


First off, this board is a hodgepodge of stylists. Not exclusively ITF or WTF. Second part, I find it very hard to believe about the ITF being in the ROK for the aforementioned reasons... namely the fact that Choi was accused of treason, the KTA has the ROK tied up, and other DOCUMENTED information. I have never inferred anyone lies. I am an engineer by trade, and I deal on a daily basis with documented fact. Before I accept anything as fact, I try to either substantiate it or discredit it. Its the scientific method. My intent is not to hurt your, or anyone else's feelings, but I have an obligation to my students to ensure that the information I provide is accurate. To that end, if I find an error in something I either teach or have been taught, and I can substantiate it, I modify my teaching.

I realize you do not know me, but rest assured I never infer anything. I say what I think. I will be perfectly honest with you... all martial arts organizations "modify" history. Thats the way things have been done forever and a day in the world in general. For example, in the Kukkiwon textbook there is a reference to Taekwondo in the ancient past. we know this to be an impossibility based on the facts of the Japanese occupation of WWII and its impact on Sino and Korean society. Does it make more sense now? I could care less about organization. I am after the truth and I personally believe that there are bits and pieces of it floating around in different places.

I hope this helps clarify my position.

 

[Mithios]

Mr.Clay , Have you went to the itf-korea.org site ??

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Mithios,

Not yet. I was on the road re-locating. I just read the rest of this thread. Don't let anyone you know rent a UHaul. The first one we got broke down, the second one caught fire and the third had no suspension... just absolutely ridiculous. Needless to say last night was my first night back online since moving.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

If this is accurate, there has been a loosening of the reigns of the WTF. Thanks. It has stimulating more questions, and I do believe I have some information to try and dig out.

Great Stuff. Thanks again. While not documented evidence, it does give me a starting point. It is interesting to note that the.org suffix is usually owned by Americans; however, it is clearly Korean in origin, as the who-is data supports. According to this, the record was created in January of this past year, so I'm assuming this is a new development? I wonder if the loostening has to do with the passing of Choi? I would think that it would be unethical to punish those that were innocent for any action, real or allegede, that Choi committed.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Well rest assured if I'm saying it, it is not an embellishment or a lie to make my federation look good. Having said that I will tell you honestly that I don't know what exactly is going on in South Korea, I think they are just starting up. They probably have a few colour belts and that is it, I don't think they are very big. My colleague has gone there to do a seminar for ITF and in the pics it becomes obvious that the black belts attending are either currently associated with WTF or used to be. But even if it's just a small start it can only grow and I'm interested in seeing how it grows, in fact I might visit it myself. I was even considering teaching ITF there... but now it looks like I'll be teaching WTF in Thailand... go figure. At least I'll be closer to Korea if I do decide to go visit.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Kodanjaclay

For example, in the Kukkiwon textbook there is a reference to Taekwondo in the ancient past. we know this to be an impossibility based on the facts of the Japanese occupation of WWII and its impact on Sino and Korean society. Does it make more sense now?

Sir, I have always believed that Taekwondo is a hybrid martial art but with ancient origins. According to various sources including the USOC's TKD wing and yes the Kukkiwon, I've learned as much.

To paraphrase, "Taekwondo is a traditional Korean martial art… Its origins are not well known but three possibilities are often described. One traces taekwondo to Korea's three-kingdom era (ca. 50 BC) when Silla Dynasty warriors, the Hwarang, began to develop a martial art, tae kyon ("foot-hand"). Others feel that taekwondo began as a form of Chinese boxing, which was established at the Shaolin Temple in 520 BC by Bodhidharma, the founder of Zen Buddhism. A third possibility is that taekwondo developed from Japanese or Okinawan karate. It is now felt that taekwondo probably developed from other Asian martial arts combined with traditional Korean techniques of kickboxing."

I'm certain you've heard and read much of this same type of information. All of this appears to be true. In any event, from the research I've done on my art, which may be flawed, sure I do realize that Taekwondo is relatively new, just having been officially born in the mid 1950's. In any event, from everything I've read it cannot be denied that TKD does have historical, ancient origins. IMHO, to deny as much would be an injustice to TKD. This issue is much like Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do, which is also relatively new, however, the art itself traces its origins back many, many years. Moreover, like TKD, JKD it is an amalgam of many differing styles.

So can they be called historical MAs? Well that depends on your interpretation on what is a historical MA.

Just My Take... :asian: