Transferring from ATA to WTF

[Dirty Dog]

Lol funny story. What was your reason for intentionally hiding your previous experience?



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Because, like you, I'd been out of training for a long long time. I'd have looked like a putz wearing a BB. I didn't remember the Chang Hon forms (I've since relearned them). I didn't know the Palgwae forms required by this school. I didn't know the (optional) Taegeuk forms. In short, I didn't deserve a BB. The only thing my prior training meant was that I advanced far faster than the norm for this school. On average, 1st Dan takes 6-8 years here. I did it in 2.


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[jks9199]

A few thoughts.

First, regarding your daughter's training... The question is really are you happy with what you're seeing? Are you comfortable with the teaching staff? If so -- then she's probably in the right place. As to the testing you witnessed... a lot depends on what level they were at. If it was a very early test, maybe they're letting things slide, or judging more on preparation and daily observations then on test day performance.

With regard to your own training... You've stayed in shape. That doesn't mean you've retained the skills and knowledge of a black belt -- or that the black belt you earned as a child really translates into an adult black belt. As Dirty Dog said -- why not start "fresh" and allow yourself to advance as rapidly as may happen, rather than look foolish? If you start in another art -- certainly start fresh.

 

[Eastpointvet]

A few thoughts.

First, regarding your daughter's training... The question is really are you happy with what you're seeing? Are you comfortable with the teaching staff? If so -- then she's probably in the right place. As to the testing you witnessed... a lot depends on what level they were at. If it was a very early test, maybe they're letting things slide, or judging more on preparation and daily observations then on test day performance.

With regard to your own training... You've stayed in shape. That doesn't mean you've retained the skills and knowledge of a black belt -- or that the black belt you earned as a child really translates into an adult black belt. As Dirty Dog said -- why not start "fresh" and allow yourself to advance as rapidly as may happen, rather than look foolish? If you start in another art -- certainly start fresh.

I am happy with what I'm seeing. I'm more concerned about the future if I had to narrow it down. I don't want her to outgrow the organization as I did once I reached BB.

As for myself, I agree with you. I meant that physically I have not been sedentary over the years but mentally I'm nowhere near where I was as a BB aside from basic technique.


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[Gwai Lo Dan]

I agree. Much better to have people look at you and say "Why the hell is he still wearing a white belt?" than "Why the hell is he wearing a black belt?"
QUOTE]

The school may disagree, for motivational reasons, and want you at a higher belt. If other lower belts see a white belt who is pretty good and getting better fast, they may feel untalented while they struggle to improve. If that leads them to think "TKD isn't for me", then it becomes a revenue issue for the school.

 

[kitkatninja]

...When I returned after a long hiatus from training, I declined to mention ever having trained. I strapped on a white belt. When the instructors specifically asked me if I'd had other training, I said something along the lines of 'I watch a lot of action movies...'. My wife ratted me out, but I still refused to put the BB on until I'd earned it again.

When I returned to training after a hiatus and moving to a different association, while in the beginning I didn't mention that I've trained before, I did have to disclose it. If anything happened I didn't want any negative comeback on the insurance front, beside an instructor will always know by your techniques (even if it's rusty) that a person has been previous training.

 

[Dirty Dog]

When I returned to training after a hiatus and moving to a different association, while in the beginning I didn't mention that I've trained before, I did have to disclose it. If anything happened I didn't want any negative comeback on the insurance front, beside an instructor will always know by your techniques (even if it's rusty) that a person has been previous training.

I believe your concerns about insurance are unfounded.
We did discuss my prior training eventually, and I was offered the choice of going back to my prior rank and simply not testing further until I'd learned the curriculum up to the same rank. I declined. I just don't think it's reasonable to wear a rank when I don't know the material for that rank in the current school. Wearing it as a guest is one thing. But whatever rank I wear will reflect my knowledge of the art I'm currently studying.

 

[Thousand Kicks]

I have seen a few things done with people who have previous.

1. Start over as white belt. This way the teacher doesn't have to explain anything to anybody. All new students start at white belt. However, other students will always say, "He's not really a white belt"
2. After a series of assessments, you are awarded a rank based on what the teacher sees. The more you know from their system the higher the rank you are awarded. It is not possible to know all the specific requirements of the school, but you get some credit for previous training.
3. You are allowed to keep your BB (provided you can produce a valid certificate showing you attained the rank), but you are required to learn that schools specific requirements for all lower ranks. This usually happens if your previous training is recent.


It mostly depends on you. If you are not comfortable wearing the BB in a new school after a long period of not training, just tell the instructor you wish to start at white belt.

 

[Master Dan]

First what is your motivation for training? health self defense general well being and socializing with a compatible group, if so then its a good instructor that gives you all that and rank does not have that much value. On the other hand if your daughter has a desire to compete on a national and international level and you would like to be her coach then I highly recommend WTF and KKW. With regards to you having to wear a white belt I would never do that to an adult that could demonstrate good basics and a dedicated training ethic both for himself and his children. 1st Dan certification would come when you could meet all testing requirements based on the KKW testing procedures taking into account any physical limits if needed. I do not place a lot of stock in spinning and high jumping kicks for people over 40. Accurate controlled penetrating technique combined with balance and ability to perform both distant and close in fighting sport and non sport is a must other wise if you cannot truly defend yourself why bother. Others may disagree but I have been a bit horrified at some from the ATA that claim to have black belt rank even junior master level demonstrating very bad self defense and poor sparring technique more likened to aerobic kick boxing with no real thought of application, worse bad blocks and no concept of punching to any particular target and if they did make contact would have resulted in injury to themselves?

I am sure there are those that are competent out there but for the most part I have found it to be a Paper mill?? I base this on the fact that I get a wide range of people from all over the United States that come here for months to a few years and that is what I have run into.

I wish you all the best if I can be of any help please ask and there are no bad styles only bad instructors just my two cents

 

[msmitht]

Hello all!

I'm new to the forums after scouring the threads over the past week. I'm delighted to join the community and I hope to be apart of the many interesting conversations that take place here.

In summary, I have a young daughter and she recently began her journey in Taekwondo (ATA). After 7 years of training, I myself earned a black belt in Taekwondo (ATA) as a teenager before opting out of my training to play high school sports. My daughter has a natural affinity for TKD and has aspirations to reach black belt someday. Her eagerness has motivated me to return to martial arts training as well but the ATA has changed drastically from what I can remember. Even though I'm satisfied with her current instructors, I've recently came across a slew of negative reviews about the ATA as an organization in the last 20+ years since I ended my training. Among other things, what startles me the most is the lack of recognition of ATA ranks outside of the organization itself. This is what bothers me most of all when it comes to my child's long term success in martial arts.

My concerns: Should I remove my daughter from the ATA in favor of a more global friendly organization like the WTF/ITF? Will my old rank hold any weight in another organization (WTF) or martial art discipline or will I have to start over at white belt regardless of my choice? I am currently considering training in Shotokan Karate if my rank does not hold up in TKD outside of ATA.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!


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You also might want to look into a bjj class to teach her some self defense in case she is thrown down on the ground.

 

[Balrog]

Hello all!

I'm new to the forums after scouring the threads over the past week. I'm delighted to join the community and I hope to be apart of the many interesting conversations that take place here.

In summary, I have a young daughter and she recently began her journey in Taekwondo (ATA). After 7 years of training, I myself earned a black belt in Taekwondo (ATA) as a teenager before opting out of my training to play high school sports. My daughter has a natural affinity for TKD and has aspirations to reach black belt someday. Her eagerness has motivated me to return to martial arts training as well but the ATA has changed drastically from what I can remember. Even though I'm satisfied with her current instructors, I've recently came across a slew of negative reviews about the ATA as an organization in the last 20+ years since I ended my training. Among other things, what startles me the most is the lack of recognition of ATA ranks outside of the organization itself. This is what bothers me most of all when it comes to my child's long term success in martial arts.

My concerns: Should I remove my daughter from the ATA in favor of a more global friendly organization like the WTF/ITF?

If I might chime in here....

ATA is global friendly. The last numbers that I heard indicate that we have well over 2000 schools world-wide.

As far as the negative remarks about ATA go, please keep in mind that the vast majority of them originate from people who know very little about the ATA, or from people who washed out of the ATA. Now, having said that....yes, ATA has some warts, and some of the complaints are justified. Any large organization of people will always have some folks who wind up under the left end of the bell curve. Unfortunately, they tend to be the ones who get publicity and then everyone thinks they represent the organization as a whole. You may be hearing from someone who had a bad experience in *one* ATA school. That school is not indicative of the organization as a whole.

Some people are not happy with some ATA schools that have adopted business models that tend to rub people the wrong way. But amazingly enough, those same business models are in use in other organizations as well. There is the business aspect of running the school, and then there is the teaching aspect of keeping the quality of instruction high within the school.

Bottom line is this...if you are happy with the level of instruction in your local ATA school, then stay there. If you're not, talk to the instructor(s) and express your issues. If you don't get a reasonable answer, then vote with your feet and go down the road to another school. Visit that school, watch classes, talk with the students and instructors. If you like what you see, then make the move.

I've been with ATA for a long time - 2014 will be my 27th year. I have disagreed with some of the things they have done, and some of those things have fallen by the wayside. In the long run, however, ATA is continually trying to find ways to make martial arts training easier to get and more accessible to the general public, and to improve the quality of instruction that we offer. Sometimes, the only way to do that is by trial and error, and we occasionally stub our toes. But the vast majority of ATA instructors, I think, are oriented toward one goal, and that should be the goal of any instructor in any discipline whatsoever: we all want to turn out students that are better than we are.

If you would like to continue this discussion off-line, feel free to PM me. I'll be happy to answer any questions for you that I can.

 

[msmitht]

If I might chime in here....

ATA is global friendly. The last numbers that I heard indicate that we have well over 2000 schools world-wide.

As far as the negative remarks about ATA go, please keep in mind that the vast majority of them originate from people who know very little about the ATA, or from people who washed out of the ATA. Now, having said that....yes, ATA has some warts, and some of the complaints are justified. Any large organization of people will always have some folks who wind up under the left end of the bell curve. Unfortunately, they tend to be the ones who get publicity and then everyone thinks they represent the organization as a whole. You may be hearing from someone who had a bad experience in *one* ATA school. That school is not indicative of the organization as a whole.

Some people are not happy with some ATA schools that have adopted business models that tend to rub people the wrong way. But amazingly enough, those same business models are in use in other organizations as well. There is the business aspect of running the school, and then there is the teaching aspect of keeping the quality of instruction high within the school.

Bottom line is this...if you are happy with the level of instruction in your local ATA school, then stay there. If you're not, talk to the instructor(s) and express your issues. If you don't get a reasonable answer, then vote with your feet and go down the road to another school. Visit that school, watch classes, talk with the students and instructors. If you like what you see, then make the move.

I've been with ATA for a long time - 2014 will be my 27th year. I have disagreed with some of the things they have done, and some of those things have fallen by the wayside. In the long run, however, ATA is continually trying to find ways to make martial arts training easier to get and more accessible to the general public, and to improve the quality of instruction that we offer. Sometimes, the only way to do that is by trial and error, and we occasionally stub our toes. But the vast majority of ATA instructors, I think, are oriented toward one goal, and that should be the goal of any instructor in any discipline whatsoever: we all want to turn out students that are better than we are.

If you would like to continue this discussion off-line, feel free to PM me. I'll be happy to answer any questions for you that I can.

Hmm.
How does one wash out of the ATA? I have seen black belt tests at one of their top schools and even those who forgot what to do passed.
World wide? There are only 43 schools listed outside the USA and several are not open anymore.

 

[Rumy73]

Thanks for the quick reply!

To answer your question, I've read negative things about the organization in general and not about my daughter's individual school. I've monitored her instructors and I'm satisfied with their level of skill and dedication. However, at her recent exam for example, I was surprised to see group testing rather than the individual testing I was accustomed to. There was not a distinction between the kids who lazily executed their form compared to the kids who's dedication was quite apparent. The whole procedure felt like an informality rather than a test of skill as if just showing up guaranteed a promotion. The modern ATA appears very commercialized. TKD taught me discipline and respect at an early age so I'd like to see it taken more seriously from its practitioners. My peers, not just my master, pushed me to excel. My daughter is performing well, but I worry about her development if her classmates are not taking it seriously. That is a huge concern when I think about her training from an organizational stand point. Thats just one example from a handful of long term issues that may rise.

As far as my BB, thats great to know. I have no issue re-learning the forms or even starting at another rank since I've been out of practice for a long time. I've read that WTF forms are entirely different than ATA or even ITF for that matter. I'm just gathering the information I need since the landscape has changed so much in my city when it comes to MA.


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What you are seeing in ATA is no different in some WTF schools. It is commercial and rarely do students fail tests.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

What you are seeing in ATA is no different in some WTF schools. It is commercial and rarely do students fail tests.

Agreed.

 

[Gorilla]

What you are seeing in ATA is no different in some WTF schools. It is commercial and rarely do students fail tests.

You are making a sweeping generalization based on your limited experience!

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

What's the generalization? He did say "some" WTF schools.

 

[Gorilla]

Some!!! Ok but it seems "some" people on here have an axe to grind with WTF oriented sport schools!

 

[granfire]

Some!!! Ok but it seems "some" people on here have an axe to grind with WTF oriented sport schools!

Or ATA, or ITF....

 

[Gorilla]

Or ATA, or ITF....

I have no problem with any Martial Art...they all have good and bad!!!

 

[Eastpointvet]

Happy New Year everyone!

Thanks for the thought provoking replies. After considering most of the responses here, I've made a few moves to figure out what's best for my daughter and I.

I decided to test both disciplines (shotokan karate & WTF TKD) out to see what I would respond to more naturally. I was able to find two reputable dojos in my city. The karate trial class occurred this past Monday. My upcoming TKD trial class will take place on the 6th. The karate class was amazing but challenging. The instructor could tell I had previous training and mentioned I would most likely be placed in an accelerated program although I would begin at white belt. I'm totally fine with that. Once I've attended the TKD class, I will make a decision on which to attend.

As for my daughter, she had an accident on Christmas Day and has fractured her arm. She's out of training for 6 weeks unfortunately. Before the accident, she expressed her thoughts towards staying in ATA. Maybe after she heals, she will be more open minded but I'll support her on whatever is the best fit for her currently.

I'll keep everyone updated!


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[granfire]

I hope she mends quickly.

I know I keep missing it, how old she is, but at a younger age, friends make or break the experience.
As long as the school does not go off on the deep end, sometimes well enough has to do.
Little girls are sometimes difficult to encourage.