Thoughts on ATA TKD?

[Kinghercules]

Yes, but you didn't leave it at that, as evinced by the following:


Please support this statement. I have heard many criticisms of the ATA, but accusations of the founder being an instant BB are not among them.


Where is this coming from? Nobody has said anything to the effect that kids will never get into fights in school, so why are you going there?


Kickboxing, regardless of the style or contact level, does not equate to self defense and certainly does not equate to rape prevention.

99 percent of self defense is not about the physical. Everything from where you choose to go (bars are generally a bad choice) to your cell phone habits affect your ability to defend yourself. How you carry yourself and how you interract with others play a huge part in whether or not fights 'just come at you.'

I have no comment on how the ATA addresses the non physical portion of SD because I have never trained at an ATA school.


For competition bracketing. That is what belts are for, and they have no correlation to self defense. Remember, taekwondo is the national sport of Korea and an olympic sport.

If you don't mind my asking, what is your experience with the ATA that has prompted you to make such strong statements about the organization?

It was on the their website. The history of their founder (IDK his name). He was a 1st or 2nd degree BB in Korea and Gen Choi offered to make him a 5th dan if he would join Choi's organization (which is why Ki Whang Kim didnt respect Choi either because he was doin that with alot of Korean students). So he did and claimed that he had learned all the forms in one day and later had moved to the USA but then later he had split from Choi and created his own forms and a whole new sec of the TKD. Now he's a grandmaster of his own TKD style.

For someone that has neva trained with them you are sure defending them vigorously! :lol:

 

[Kinghercules]

It could be fitness or fun, just like any other sport. A counter retort would be "if you want to defend yourself, why are you learning TKD and not firearms with a permit to carry a concealed weapon?". I don't agree with people saying martial arts must be about self defence - let each person decide for himself (herself) why they pursue it.

Martial art=military art.
It wasnt always a sport.

 

[Tez3]

Martial art=military art.
It wasnt always a sport.

Oh I don't know, I know a great many military people to whom fighting is a sport.
You know of course that 'martial arts' is the name English speakers give to it, other languages call it different things not always anything to do with 'martial' or 'military'. Karate for example doesn't mean 'martial art'. I believe TKD doesn't mean martial arts either.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think my point got lost in my ramblin.
They have changed TKD into something that it wasnt before and if you're gonna do that then you should change the name as well.

They did: they call their system Songham Taekwondo. They used Chang Hon forms prior to that.

Let me ask you......if it was a Kyokushinkai school fightin the same way as the ATA would make the same argument?

What change the name from karate? No, though I would make the argument that they are out of line with kyokushin. But as I stated above, they changed that part of it. The system as it is taught today is out of line with Kukki taekwondo and Chang Hon taekwondo, but they changed the name to Songham taekwondo a couple of decades ago. They are a completely separate organization with a completely separate tournament circuit. Which incidentalally, is virtually nonexistent in DC according to the ATA website http://www.ataonline.com/schools/schoolsearch.asp. I have never seen one in Maryland, though supposedly, there is now one in North Potomac, which is not coincidentally, an affluent area. The next closest is Centreville in Northern Virginia, another nice suburban area. Your location shows you as being in DC, which means that you would have to try very hard to stumble into an ATA school.

If you have never set foot in an ATA school and only have Youtube to go on, you might want to dial back your criticism a notch. I'm not sticking up for the ATA. Search the board and look for threads about child black belts and find my posts. I don't pull any punches. However, most everything that you accuse the ATA of is rampant in martial arts in the USA.

One advantage to the ATA is that the organization is set up to be a family friendly environment promoting a martial arts themed athletic activity. Go into an ATA school and you know what you're getting into. There are plenty of KKW/WTF schools that have 'olympic this' and 'olympic that' splashed all through their literature but whose programs are just money making schemes for their owners, most of whom are tournament champions.

Outside of regurgitating known facts, I don't actively criticize the ATA. I have never trained or even set foot in an ATA school, so I do not have a knowledge base to make more than cursory observations.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It was on the their website. The history of their founder (IDK his name). He was a 1st or 2nd degree BB in Korea and Gen Choi offered to make him a 5th dan if he would join Choi's organization (which is why Ki Whang Kim didnt respect Choi either because he was doin that with alot of Korean students). So he did and claimed that he had learned all the forms in one day and later had moved to the USA but then later he had split from Choi and created his own forms and a whole new sec of the TKD. Now he's a grandmaster of his own TKD style.

In other words, he did what all the rest of them did at that time and self promoted. Choi did the exact same thing. Technically, so did all the rest of them, as most of them had Shotokan backgrounds.

For someone that has neva trained with them you are sure defending them vigorously! :lol:

I would not call my statements anything resembling a defense, vigorous or otherwise. My statements about the ATA are not anything that I would want said about my own studio.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Oh I don't know, I know a great many military people to whom fighting is a sport.
You know of course that 'martial arts' is the name English speakers give to it, other languages call it different things not always anything to do with 'martial' or 'military'. Karate for example doesn't mean 'martial art'. I believe TKD doesn't mean martial arts either.

Taekwondo means, 'To trample with the feet and to smash with the fist.' The often utilized 'foot fist way' is an oversimplification.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

For some reason I thought you were an ATA instructor. . .

Heavens no! I've never set foot in an ATA school. I simply have been on MA boards for several years and have done a lot of research on various martial arts and MA orgs, including the ATA, so that I can converse intellignently with people.

I think a big difference is that iaido doesn't pretend to be something it's not. ATA TKD calls itself just that, TKD, and if you're going to identify yourself with that martial art then people are going to expect certain things. If they didn't call what they do TKD then they could avoid being held to the standards of such.

What do people expect that the ATA doesn't deliver? Forms, check. Board breaking, check. A multitude of colored belts, check. Some kind of sparring, check.

The fact that we don't like their sparring rules (that seems to be the primary gripe that everyone has voiced) doesn't really chage that.

As I stated before, their sparring rules don't bother me nearly as much as their grading system which seems designed to absolutely milk the students' bank accounts. That and the fact that their tournaments apparently have a division for five to seven year old black belts. In order to have such a division, you first have to award black belts to five, six, and seven year old children. That problem, by the way, is not unique to the ATA.

Also, isn't iaido the art of drawing the sword?

Iaido means, 'the way of mental presence.' The art is centered around the drawing of and cutting with the sword in one clean motion. This technique was developed when samurai shifted from longer swords that were hung from the belt with the edge pointing downward to shorter swords that were thrust through the belt with the edge pointing upward.

It would be difficult to fashion that into a competitive activity with sparring involved, I'd think.

You can make a sport out of anything. Stick ice skates on a ballerina and call it figure skating, then judge it based entirely on subjective merit. I don't consider figure skating to be a sport, but the IOC disagrees with me.

How could you make iaido? Pad up in electric bogu and arm each participant with a curved 37 shinai (available on e-bogu). Have both particpants 'draw' and attempt to cut eachother. Limit cutting to one draw/cut and no more than three follow up cuts. First one to strike the other with a valid cut wins the round. Have best two out of three, four out of five, or whatever suits your fancy.

I'm not suggesting that iai be made into a sport (I would be strongly opposed to it): simply that with not a whole lot of thought (I put less than two minutes into my above description) it can be done.

 

[msmitht]

It was on the their website. The history of their founder (IDK his name). He was a 1st or 2nd degree BB in Korea and Gen Choi offered to make him a 5th dan if he would join Choi's organization (which is why Ki Whang Kim didnt respect Choi either because he was doin that with alot of Korean students). So he did and claimed that he had learned all the forms in one day and later had moved to the USA but then later he had split from Choi and created his own forms and a whole new sec of the TKD. Now he's a grandmaster of his own TKD style.

For someone that has neva trained with them you are sure defending them vigorously! :lol:

They did it before and some still do it. I don't like the ata but there is a lot to be learned from their business model.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Martial art=military art.
It wasnt always a sport.

But was it ever truly a military art?

Given that early taekwondo was essentially just Shotokan, the fact that it was being practiced in the military doesn't make it a military art. The entire kyu/dan system that is used in taekwondo was lifted from the game of go and the belt system was invented by Kano with inspiration from athletics (swimming, if I recall) and has no military origins whatsoever. Shotokan itself was a simplified amalgam of the systems that Funakoshi was versed in. It is this style that is the primary donor art of taekwondo. Shotokan was never a military art. To imply that taekwondo, which developed from Shotokan, is somehow military in nature is a falacy.

By the time taekwondo was being put together, the primary military art was riflemanship, not feet and fist. The primary weapon off of the battlefield was the pistol.

Unarmed arts are not a part of warfare. Haven't been for centuries. Unarmed arts are practiced in the military to keep the soldiers in condition and to keep their competitive edge honed. If you asked the USMC to practice songahm taekwondo as a part of their training regimen for two years, and then had the Marine Corp demo team show it off, it would look completely brutal. Train in anything the way the marines train and it will be brutal. Heck, train in songahm taekwondo the way that a professional boxer trains and you will be a very tough fighter. Much of what makes the style effective is how you train in it, not the style itself.

Since most of us are civilians with day jobs, we don't have the kind of time to put into training that a professional fighter or soldier does. So unless you are going to train like the ROK does on a daily basis, do not invoke the 'military art' line of reasoning. It does not hold up under scrutiny.

 

[SPX]

Let me ask you......if it was a Kyokushinkai school fightin the same way as the ATA would make the same argument?

Well to be fair, that's not quite the same thing.

Kyokushin is a specific form of KARATE; TKD isn't a specific form of anything. TKD is the Korean equivalent of Karate.

Your argument would work if there was a WTF TKD school, for instance, that was actually teaching the ATA curriculum.

EDIT: I see Daniel Sullivan basically covered all of these earlier.

 

[SPX]

Heavens no! I've never set foot in an ATA school. I simply have been on MA boards for several years and have done a lot of research on various martial arts and MA orgs, including the ATA, so that I can converse intellignently with people.

Okay, my bad.

I've read through a lot of older posts where ATA topics were covered and there were one or two guys who were ATA instructors who would often chime in. I thought you were one of them.

What do people expect that the ATA doesn't deliver? Forms, check. Board breaking, check. A multitude of colored belts, check. Some kind of sparring, check.

The fact that we don't like their sparring rules (that seems to be the primary gripe that everyone has voiced) doesn't really chage that.

I think that what people really complain about is the SPIRIT of the organization . . . the attitude. You have said the ATA provides a "martial arts themed athletic program." I think most people would more or less agree, and that is NOT taekwondo, or at least is not supposed to be.

It's basically like they have the trappings of TKD--the forms, the breaking, the belts, the sparring--but they've put it through a machine that has made it all go retarded. I guess a good way to put it is that ATA TKD is to ITF/WTF TKD as wushu is to traditional kung fu.

You can make a sport out of anything. Stick ice skates on a ballerina and call it figure skating, then judge it based entirely on subjective merit. I don't consider figure skating to be a sport, but the IOC disagrees with me.

How could you make iaido? Pad up in electric bogu and arm each participant with a curved 37 shinai (available on e-bogu). Have both particpants 'draw' and attempt to cut eachother. Limit cutting to one draw/cut and no more than three follow up cuts. First one to strike the other with a valid cut wins the round. Have best two out of three, four out of five, or whatever suits your fancy.

I'm not suggesting that iai be made into a sport (I would be strongly opposed to it): simply that with not a whole lot of thought (I put less than two minutes into my above description) it can be done.

I didn't literally mean you couldn't make a sport out of it. I meant it would be difficult to make a sport out of it that's not silly.

 

[SPX]

If you asked the USMC to practice songahm taekwondo as a part of their training regimen for two years, and then had the Marine Corp demo team show it off, it would look completely brutal. Train in anything the way the marines train and it will be brutal. Heck, train in songahm taekwondo the way that a professional boxer trains and you will be a very tough fighter. Much of what makes the style effective is how you train in it, not the style itself.

Thanks for the mental image of Marines doing the Songahm forms with gusto.

I do agree, though, in the hands of the right fighter just about any martial art can be used to positive effect.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Kyokushin is a specific form of KARATE; TKD isn't a specific form of anything. TKD is the Korean equivalent of Karate.

Well, taekwondo is specifically taekwondo. Your statement below....

Your argument would work if there was a WTF TKD school, for instance, that was actually teaching the ATA curriculum.

... is more accurate; there is a Kukkiwon, a Chang Hon, and a Songahm curriculum and WTF, ITF, and ATA tournament rule sets.

Each curriculum is an expression of different groups of personalities or individual personalities. Each rule set emphasizes different elements of taekwondo; WTF emphasizes high kicking and evokes Korean cultural preference for kicking games, specifically Taekkyeon, and is full contact. ATA rules are essentially the same, but with an emphasis on control (hence the light contact). ITF rules reflect taekwondo's karate heritage and are more ballanced between hands and feet. All three are continuous so far as I know.

Each association has their own set of forms, but that really doesn't make them separate styles; taekwondo began with Pinan/Heian forms, then transitioned to Palgwe forms, and then to the current Taegeuk forms. Choi made the Chang Hon forms just to separate himself from everyone else, but they look more like karate forms. The ATA broke from the ITF and used Chang Hon forms originally, and then, to separate themselves from everyone else, created the Songahm forms.

Karate ryus tend to have greater variance between them, and are further differentiated by Japanese vs. Okinawan karate. There really is only one taekwondo, with one main association (KKW/WTF) and two smaller associations (ITF and ATA) each teaching it.

EDIT: I see Daniel Sullivan basically covered all of these earlier.

I've been busy today!

 

[dancingalone]

Karate ryus tend to have greater variance between them, and are further differentiated by Japanese vs. Okinawan karate. There really is only one taekwondo, with one main association (KKW/WTF) and two smaller associations (ITF and ATA) each teaching it.

While it is true that the KKW is the 'main' association with millions of members worldwide, I don't share your opinion about there being only one taekwondo. How can there be? What I learned as a Jhoon Rhee Texkwondo guy is rather different from the ATA curriculum my niece and nephew practic, even though both styles were the brain children of Chung Do Kwan men. On the other hand both systems are probably closer to each other than what is offered at my friend's dojang (lots of kicking focused drills and sparring).

There are dozens and dozens of so-called TKD styles. Most likely are close to each other in training methodology, but I wouldn't assume that is true of all of them. It's not quite the same level of variation as you see in karate, but I think those days are coming, particularly in the United States where the KKW does not hold the monopoly/market leadership it does in other parts of the world.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that what people really complain about is the SPIRIT of the organization . . . the attitude. You have said the ATA provides a "martial arts themed athletic program." I think most people would more or less agree, and that is NOT taekwondo, or at least is not supposed to be.

It's basically like they have the trappings of TKD--the forms, the breaking, the belts, the sparring--but they've put it through a machine that has made it all go retarded.

I think that that pretty well sums it up, though I'd replace retarded with corporate. The emphasis is definitely on running a successful business.

The grading, which is my biggest beef with the association, is a good example. There are eight geubs that you test for (you start at ninth if I'm not mistaken), but each geub has a recommended level and a decided level. That is sixteen gradings, each of which carries a testing fee. Then you go through the same with dan grade.

I'm also pretty sure, though I could be mistaken, that the ATA is the source of all of those pesky add on extra cost clubs, such as black belt clugs, masters clubs, leadership clubs, etc.

On top of that are all of the various programs that you can get 'certified' in, such as ground fighting, XMA and Krav Maga and a weapons program. All of which are at extra cost.

Certainly, you get out what you put in. A hard training dedicated student will excel almost no matter where he or she trains. But their wallet will take a serious beating at an ATA school from what I have gathered.

I will also say that there are likely some very good and very dedicated teachers within the organization.

In all, it is very important to know what you want before you go looking for a place to train. A suburban mom in North Potomac or Potomac is going to have a very different set of priorities from an eighteen year old male from Capitol Heights, or really anywhere for that matter. Most areas that can support martial arts will have more than one school. People should look at them very carefully before commiting and if quality training is a high priority, be willing to travel a little to attend a school that offers it.

If you want to get your kid off of the X box and moving around in a "Rah! Rah! Attaboy!!" atmosphere that will make him or her feel good about themselves and provide them with a healthy environment in which to engage in physical activity, the ATA is a good choice, provided you don't mind paying the premium.

 

[SPX]

Each association has their own set of forms, but that really doesn't make them separate styles

While you may be technically correct, I think it's only a technicality.

WTF TKD is really quite different from ITF TKD, and not just in the ruleset. The stances are often higher, the striking surface with the round kick is often different, etc. It's as different (and similar) as, say, Shotokan is from many of its offshoots.

Plus, if the rulesets are different, and the school is competitive in nature, you're just going to learn the skills in different ways. That's all there is to it. There's a reason ITF guys are usually better with their hands than WTF guys are, etc.

TKD is not unified.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

While it is true that the KKW is the 'main' association with millions of members worldwide, I don't share your opinion about there being only one taekwondo. How can there be?

What I learned as a Jhoon Rhee Texkwondo guy is rather different from the ATA curriculum my niece and nephew practic, even though both styles were the brain children of Chung Do Kwan men. On the other hand both systems are probably closer to each other than what is offered at my friend's dojang (lots of kicking focused drills and sparring).

Different curriculums, one art. I covered my reasons for the statement in the post that you quoted from. Essentially, if you take away the difference between the ITF sparring rules and the WTF and ATA rules, it all comes down to what a school owner or group wish to emphasize. In KKW forms, the hand techniques by far outnumber the foot techniques, and I would be willing to bet that the technique set from association to association is essentially the same (ITF hoshinsul is grafted on hapkido, not taekwondo, and from what ITF folks say, it is not commonly taught in ITF schools. Earl could probably verify that one way or the other) and that the way that the techniques are practically executed do not vary all that much, if at all.

I'm sure that there are indepenents with greater variance, and Jhoon Rhee would be the biggest of these. But I'm not willing to actually go further than what I have said in my above statements at this point in time.

One of the reasons why you see less variance in TKD than you do in karate is because at this point in time, unarmed arts are no longer driven to develop in different directions outside of competition the way that they may have been a hundred years ago. And with the sharing of information, the proliferation of styles and martial arts, and the ability of instructors to become very familiar with different styles, most styles have developed to about the greatest extent that they can short of being artificially altered in order to appeal to differing markets. Any radical variance you can think of likely already has an art to accomodate it.

It seems that most of the evolution of martial arts these days is the morphing of them into fitness programs (Forza samurai sword workout anyone?)

There are dozens and dozens of so-called TKD styles. Most likely are close to each other in training methodology, but I wouldn't assume that is true of all of them. It's not quite the same level of variation as you see in karate, but I think those days are coming, particularly in the United States where the KKW does not hold the monopoly/market leadership it does in other parts of the world.

Certainly possible. Taekwondo is less than a century old, which is pretty young as martial arts go. I suspect that the fortunes of the US economy and taekwondo's fortunes in the Olympics over the next decade or so will have a fairly strong effect on the direction of taekwondo in the US.

A lot depends on trends in the US as well. MMA doesn't seem to be as ever present as it was even two years ago, and comparisons to MMA no longer are being made in every thread on every MA board. Three years ago, it seemed that the entire MA world in the US was poised to incorporate MMA. Now, MMA seems to have settled into its own niche, has won its respect, and TMAs have all benefited from the addition of MMA to the landscape. The economy is lousy, so many MA schools are barely hanging on.

In my area at least, the field has been thinned considerably in the last four years. We'll see what the field looks like in another five years.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

While you may be technically correct, I think it's only a technicality.

WTF TKD is really quite different from ITF TKD, and not just in the ruleset. The stances are often higher, the striking surface with the round kick is often different, etc. It's as different (and similar) as, say, Shotokan is from many of its offshoots.

Plus, if the rulesets are different, and the school is competitive in nature, you're just going to learn the skills in different ways. That's all there is to it. There's a reason ITF guys are usually better with their hands than WTF guys are, etc.

TKD is not unified.

No, it isn't. It simply hasn't completely broken apart yet, inspite of the best efforts of many involved.

 

[SPX]

MMA doesn't seem to be as ever present as it was even two years ago, and comparisons to MMA no longer are being made in every thread on every MA board. Three years ago, it seemed that the entire MA world in the US was poised to incorporate MMA. Now, MMA seems to have settled into its own niche, has won its respect, and TMAs have all benefited from the addition of MMA to the landscape.

It's true, in general, that MMA has dropped somewhat in popularity over the past year to two years. This is especially obvious in the number of viewers that are tuning in for MMA on cable networks. The Ultimate Fighter is no longer doing great numbers, Strikeforce events aren't doing as well as they used to, Bellator isn't doing as well as it used to, etc. Also, MMA in Japan has all but completely collapsed. And advertisers are reporting fewer click-throughs now on MMA websites than they were getting a couple of years ago. At the same time though, the UFC is expanding wider than ever, having finally landed a deal with a non-cable network (FOX), having recently gone back to Brazil for the first time since 1998, and about to go back to Japan for the first time since 1997.

To be honest, I really miss the 80s. Martial arts in general still had a mystique surrounding them that just doesn't exist today. We may have all been delusional about "teh deadly kung fu" and how awesome ninjas are, but it sure was a lot of fun.

 

[dancingalone]

Different curriculums, one art. I covered my reasons for the statement in the post that you quoted from. Essentially, if you take away the difference between the ITF sparring rules and the WTF and ATA rules, it all comes down to what a school owner or group wish to emphasize. In KKW forms, the hand techniques by far outnumber the foot techniques, and I would be willing to bet that the technique set from association to association is essentially the same (ITF hoshinsul is grafted on hapkido, not taekwondo, and from what ITF folks say, it is not commonly taught in ITF schools. Earl could probably verify that one way or the other) and that the way that the techniques are practically executed do not vary all that much, if at all.

I agree if you take away the sparring rules, you take away a lot of the technical differences - but frankly that would be a misrepresentation of the current realities of TKD styles. What about some things like 'badda' (sp) kicks that are bread and butter for the Olympic folks here on MT? It's definitely an adaption added precisely because of the ruleset they compete under and it has become part and parcel part of their style. There are surely other technical examples too. We can't say take away the sparring rules and say they are all the same without them. These sparring adaptations are integral differences after all - doing so is a bit like saying, at the risk of trolling, that all that separates a LDS from a Catholic is the Book of Mormon.

I'm sure that there are indepenents with greater variance, and Jhoon Rhee would be the biggest of these. But I'm not willing to actually go further than what I have said in my above statements at this point in time.

There are more and more examples with every year. The local Premier Martial Arts franchises teach a TKD heavily influenced by Krav Maga and they have kickboxing classes too. The ATA continues to evolve and so does the ITA (or whatever they call themselves now) - they're always adding more supplementary classes in KM, hapkido, Filipino arts, etc.

One of the reasons why you see less variance in TKD than you do in karate is because at this point in time, unarmed arts are no longer driven to develop in different directions outside of competition the way that they may have been a hundred years ago. And with the sharing of information, the proliferation of styles and martial arts, and the ability of instructors to become very familiar with different styles, most styles have developed to about the greatest extent that they can short of being artificially altered in order to appeal to differing markets. Any radical variance you can think of likely already has an art to accomodate it.

It seems that most of the evolution of martial arts these days is the morphing of them into fitness programs (Forza samurai sword workout anyone?)

It is already evolving more than we think sometimes driven by market forces. Kiddifying TKD is one example where contact is light or nonexistent and most everything else has also been appropriately sanitized. Making it more of a physical exercise effort is another as you allude to.

I do think there is more of a general awareness about being a 'complete' martial art now. Many of the professional teachers I interact with are very cognizant about what they do or don't teach and they generally do a good job of referring prospective students to training situations where they might be happier as students and consumers.

Certainly possible. Taekwondo is less than a century old, which is pretty young as martial arts go. I suspect that the fortunes of the US economy and taekwondo's fortunes in the Olympics over the next decade or so will have a fairly strong effect on the direction of taekwondo in the US.

I don't see actual Olympic TKD as being much of a market influence in of itself as a popularity driver. We already know Olympic TKD has next to no appeal to the US consumer. Where it might be a factor is where technical influences created as a result of the competition might make their way downstream to 'normal' TKD students.

A lot depends on trends in the US as well. MMA doesn't seem to be as ever present as it was even two years ago, and comparisons to MMA no longer are being made in every thread on every MA board. Three years ago, it seemed that the entire MA world in the US was poised to incorporate MMA. Now, MMA seems to have settled into its own niche, has won its respect, and TMAs have all benefited from the addition of MMA to the landscape. The economy is lousy, so many MA schools are barely hanging on.

In my area at least, the field has been thinned considerably in the last four years. We'll see what the field looks like in another five years.

MMA seems to be doing ok as a spectator sport. I see a lot more coverage of UFC events in mainstream media sources like ESPN than I ever had before. '

I do agree the MMA/BJJ schools are not immune to the bad economy. A few of the least established grappling schools in my area have closed in the last year, although to be fair, the bigger ones are doing fine.