Thoughts on ATA TKD?

[StudentCarl]

IDK what they encourage but its a joke.
I would be embarrassed to tell anyone that I trained at an ATA school. :lol:

What's your first-hand experience with ATA? You make some pretty harsh comments for saying you don't know what they encourage. You come across like you're trying to impress kids with your profanity, but the crowd here is older and looks for explanation and not bluster. Please explain.

 

[The Last Legionary]

ATA is some shhhhht!!! LOL!!
Seriously. They are the worst practioners of TKD that Ive eva seen!

How the hell you gonna be fully suited up in sparrin gear but yet still cant make contact?! Are you fruckin kiddin me!!!!!

...
Please refrain from trying to work in the profanity. I'm pretty sure that it violates the terms of service. I'm not personally offended, but I thought I'd give you a heads up. ...

...You come across like you're trying to impress kids with your profanity, but the crowd here is older and looks for explanation and not bluster. Please explain.

PottyMouth. The language of the preteen.

Oh yeah, rules. Says "No Profanity" in there a few times. Also says "don't try and hide it, mask it, circumvent it, etc it"

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...um-Rules-and-Procedures-Revised-March-29-2011

So either he doesn't like following the rules or he's someone who said he read them when he didn't, ie a liar.
Either way, zero credibility at this point.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If im not mistaken, they dont exactly encourage Aggressive Contact.
I may be mistaken.

From what ATA practitioners have said (I have no first hand experience), they do not encourage hard contact. From what I can tell, it is like fencing; they call a strike in fencing a 'touch,' as in 'touche!'

Participants are engaging in a physical activity, not fighting with each other. Some people just aren't into getting banged around but they like martial arts. There is no sparring whatsoever in iaido, but nobody trashes it for that; people who want sparring in swordwork simply train in kendo instead and everybody is happy.

Personally, I feel that if you are going to pad up, a higher level of contact is warrented. More like kendo; we put on bogu and strike solidly. We aren't trying to kill each other or get a KO, but it is hard contact.

Frankly, the sparring rules in the ATA don't put me off; it is what it is. The grading system is what would keep me away.

 

[Kinghercules]

From what ATA practitioners have said (I have no first hand experience), they do not encourage hard contact. From what I can tell, it is like fencing; they call a strike in fencing a 'touch,' as in 'touche!'

Participants are engaging in a physical activity, not fighting with each other. Some people just aren't into getting banged around but they like martial arts. There is no sparring whatsoever in iaido, but nobody trashes it for that; people who want sparring in swordwork simply train in kendo instead and everybody is happy.

Personally, I feel that if you are going to pad up, a higher level of contact is warrented. More like kendo; we put on bogu and strike solidly. We aren't trying to kill each other or get a KO, but it is hard contact.

Frankly, the sparring rules in the ATA don't put me off; it is what it is. The grading system is what would keep me away.

Iaido is not the same as Kendo or Iaijutsu even though it comes from there. Iaido is about the philosophy and esthetics (if Im correct). Iaijutsu is more of the art of sword fighting......right?

Now American Taekwondo Association (ATA) embodies TKD. When you read it you think about TKD. And what is TKD? Its the arts of the hand & foot. It is a self defense art or an offense art. If they changed the philosophy then they should change the name just like "Iaido".

 

[Kinghercules]

Ok my thoughts. From my above post you all know that I have no respect for the ATA and those that train in it and since the administrator has emailed me about negative speakin or bashin other arts....I will have to leave it at that.

Why I dont like the ATA?

Ok besides the fact that its founder is a 123 instant BB...its just full of dirt. Its an association givin false hope to ppl. So what if its gear to soccer moms and kids that would never get into a fight at school. How you know they will never get into fights? I grew up in the hood and all my fights have not been around my way or at school. Sometimes they happened when I was at a bar or at the mall mindin my business or when someone cuts you off and you make the gustier "WTH are you doin" and they wanna block you in and hop out the car and step to you. Fights just come. They're not some thing that we or I go lookin for. And I dont know where yall live at but I live in America and in this country women get raped every day somewhere. If you have trained in ATA and you couldnt defend yourself when some guy forces his self on you, how would you feel about your trainin? And dont try to say thats not goin to happen because you dont know if and when it will happen and the majority of women that are raped were raped by someone that they know. If you are not learning how to defend yourself properly then what is the reason for gettin a black belt?

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

If you are not learning how to defend yourself properly then what is the reason for gettin a black belt?

It could be fitness or fun, just like any other sport. A counter retort would be "if you want to defend yourself, why are you learning TKD and not firearms with a permit to carry a concealed weapon?". I don't agree with people saying martial arts must be about self defence - let each person decide for himself (herself) why they pursue it.

 

[The Last Legionary]

and they wanna block you in and hop out the car and step to you.

Can someone translate this into English? Google looked at it and sent a 404 back.

As to this bit

Fights just come. They're not some thing that we or I go lookin for. And I dont know where yall live at but I live in America and in this country women get raped every day somewhere.

He's right. Everyday in America women are raped, somewhere. They are killed until dead too, somewhere. Little kids are kidnapped, somewhere. So learn to fight because mad mothers be illing and fronting and steppin and jammin and jimmyin and jackin n stuff, for shizzle, home doggers.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Iaido is not the same as Kendo or Iaijutsu even though it comes from there. Iaido is about the philosophy and esthetics (if Im correct). Iaijutsu is more of the art of sword fighting......right?

Now American Taekwondo Association (ATA) embodies TKD. When you read it you think about TKD. And what is TKD? Its the arts of the hand & foot. It is a self defense art or an offense art. If they changed the philosophy then they should change the name just like "Iaido".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaijutsu

Iaijutsu >> Iaido >> Kendo.

 

[Cyriacus]

It could be fitness or fun, just like any other sport. A counter retort would be "if you want to defend yourself, why are you learning TKD and not firearms with a permit to carry a concealed weapon?". I don't agree with people saying martial arts must be about self defence - let each person decide for himself (herself) why they pursue it.

Im inclined to agree.

That said, I did do Firearms for a long while. Ive found Martial Arts to be more reliable; Albeit that may just be personal opinion

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ok my thoughts. From my above post you all know that I have no respect for the ATA and those that train in it and since the administrator has emailed me about negative speakin or bashin other arts....I will have to leave it at that.

Yes, but you didn't leave it at that, as evinced by the following:

Why I dont like the ATA?

Ok besides the fact that its founder is a 123 instant BB...its just full of dirt.

Please support this statement. I have heard many criticisms of the ATA, but accusations of the founder being an instant BB are not among them.

Its an association givin false hope to ppl. So what if its gear to soccer moms and kids that would never get into a fight at school. How you know they will never get into fights?

Where is this coming from? Nobody has said anything to the effect that kids will never get into fights in school, so why are you going there?

I grew up in the hood and all my fights have not been around my way or at school. Sometimes they happened when I was at a bar or at the mall mindin my business or when someone cuts you off and you make the gustier "WTH are you doin" and they wanna block you in and hop out the car and step to you. Fights just come. They're not some thing that we or I go lookin for. And I dont know where yall live at but I live in America and in this country women get raped every day somewhere. If you have trained in ATA and you couldnt defend yourself when some guy forces his self on you, how would you feel about your trainin? And dont try to say thats not goin to happen because you dont know if and when it will happen and the majority of women that are raped were raped by someone that they know.

Kickboxing, regardless of the style or contact level, does not equate to self defense and certainly does not equate to rape prevention.

99 percent of self defense is not about the physical. Everything from where you choose to go (bars are generally a bad choice) to your cell phone habits affect your ability to defend yourself. How you carry yourself and how you interract with others play a huge part in whether or not fights 'just come at you.'

I have no comment on how the ATA addresses the non physical portion of SD because I have never trained at an ATA school.

If you are not learning how to defend yourself properly then what is the reason for gettin a black belt?

For competition bracketing. That is what belts are for, and they have no correlation to self defense. Remember, taekwondo is the national sport of Korea and an olympic sport.

If you don't mind my asking, what is your experience with the ATA that has prompted you to make such strong statements about the organization?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Iaido is not the same as Kendo or Iaijutsu even though it comes from there. Iaido is about the philosophy and esthetics (if Im correct). Iaijutsu is more of the art of sword fighting......right?

Iaido and iaijutsu are essentially the same thing: the art of drawing the sword and cutting in a single motion. Iaido and iaijutsu utilize kata as the primary mechanism of training. There is no sparring. There is a deep philosophical element to ZNKR iaido, with the object of improving the practitioner as a person. Having said that, a skilled iaido practitioner with a shinken could easily kill someone with the skills they have learned.

Kendo is fencing, and looks more like sword fighting than iaido. Kendo has a kata element (paired kata) where bokuto or actual (though un-edged) swords are utilized. One could certainly, with a shinken, kill a person with the skill that they have learned in kendo.

Kendo revolves around shiai; the match or bout. Bouts in kendo are full contact. Iaido revolves around kata practiced individually; I believe that there are thirteen ZNKR iaido kata. There is no sparring in ZNKR iaido. Nobody cares. They don't practice iaido for the purpose of winning matches.

Now American Taekwondo Association (ATA) embodies TKD. When you read it you think about TKD. And what is TKD? Its the arts of the hand & foot. It is a self defense art or an offense art. If they changed the philosophy then they should change the name just like "Iaido".

Actually, taekwondo is more like kendo. It is a modern unarmed art that is trained through kata (pumse/tul/hyeong/whatever Korean term is used) and shihap (sparring contests). The purpose of the sparring is to score points, be it in continuous play or in point/stop sparring. Belts, gender, and age are used for competition bracketing.

The sparring in taekwondo does not resemble any real fight that you will see, regardless of which federation you are dealing with and regardless of the contact level or amount of protective gear worn.

The purpose of taekwondo is similar to the purpose of kendo: to improve the practitioner as a person and member of collective humanity through the practice of taekwondo. Yes, you can defend yourself with taekwondo. But it is not the primary purpose of the art, and not everyone takes it specifically for self defense.

 

[SPX]

Wow. There's been so activity in this thread in the past couple of days.

This is essentially semi-contact sparring with protective gear in place to prevent injury in the event of accidental contact to a non-target area or accidental full contact to a legal target area. In other words, it keeps soccor moms happy and prevents lawsuits.

I know that this is the explanation, but don't WTF schools accomplish the same thing?

So it's not like mothers won't send their kids to a harder hitting school or that it's necessary to have BOTH full padding AND light contact to stay insured.

I think that you need to understand that the ATA promotes a martial arts themed family activity rather than fight sport.

That's an interesting description. I like it.

WTF is full contact, yet people gripe about that too. MMA is full contact with minimal gear and people still gripe about that.

I think most people don't like that in the WTF ruleset boxing skills are pretty much useless. But lately I've come to appreciate different rulesets more. I think I would have a problem if that was the ONLY ruleset that I could compete under, but I no longer have a problem with it and have come to appreciate it for what it is.

 

[SPX]

Can someone translate this into English? Google looked at it and sent a 404 back.

As to this bit

He's right. Everyday in America women are raped, somewhere. They are killed until dead too, somewhere. Little kids are kidnapped, somewhere. So learn to fight because mad mothers be illing and fronting and steppin and jammin and jimmyin and jackin n stuff, for shizzle, home doggers.

Many lulz were had. Thank you, sir.

 

[SPX]

PottyMouth. The language of the preteen.

Oh yeah, rules. Says "No Profanity" in there a few times. Also says "don't try and hide it, mask it, circumvent it, etc it"

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...um-Rules-and-Procedures-Revised-March-29-2011

So either he doesn't like following the rules or he's someone who said he read them when he didn't, ie a liar.
Either way, zero credibility at this point.

Or he's just a troll.

With that said, I cuss like a sailor and I'm a grown man, so. . .

 

[SPX]

From what ATA practitioners have said (I have no first hand experience)

For some reason I thought you were an ATA instructor. . .

There is no sparring whatsoever in iaido, but nobody trashes it for that; people who want sparring in swordwork simply train in kendo instead and everybody is happy.

I think a big difference is that iaido doesn't pretend to be something it's not. ATA TKD calls itself just that, TKD, and if you're going to identify yourself with that martial art then people are going to expect certain things. If they didn't call what they do TKD then they could avoid being held to the standards of such.

Also, isn't iaido the art of drawing the sword? It would be difficult to fashion that into a competitive activity with sparring involved, I'd think.

 

[SPX]

Ok my thoughts. From my above post you all know that I have no respect for the ATA and those that train in it . . .

Seems a silly reason to not have any respect for a person. I can kind of get not respecting the organization, but why the negativity toward the individual practitioners?

And besides, it's already been established in this thread that some ATA guys have gone on to prove themselves in the wider world of combat sports. So even if the organization has problems, there are some within it who have legitimate skills.

 

[SPX]

The sparring in taekwondo does not resemble any real fight that you will see, regardless of which federation you are dealing with and regardless of the contact level or amount of protective gear worn.

I understand the point you're making here, but a "real fight" does sometimes look vaguely similar to a kickboxing match (and thus an ITF match). Not every fight involves guys trying to gouge each others eyes out or take a person down.

 

[terryl965]

TKD, Karate, Kung Fu , weapons or even guns and knifes are whatever the person is willing to do in any stituation. If a person just goes to a gun range and fires at target does not mean they can point a gun at aperson and shoot, the same thing goes for those in a martial art or sport if and when they need to defend themself it is a matter if they will. Some people are just victims no matter what they train in and others are the complete opposite without having any training. Enjoy what you do and remember that not everybody or person is in there for the same reasons.

 

[Kinghercules]

Iaido and iaijutsu are essentially the same thing: the art of drawing the sword and cutting in a single motion. Iaido and iaijutsu utilize kata as the primary mechanism of training. There is no sparring. There is a deep philosophical element to ZNKR iaido, with the object of improving the practitioner as a person. Having said that, a skilled iaido practitioner with a shinken could easily kill someone with the skills they have learned.

Kendo is fencing, and looks more like sword fighting than iaido. Kendo has a kata element (paired kata) where bokuto or actual (though un-edged) swords are utilized. One could certainly, with a shinken, kill a person with the skill that they have learned in kendo.

Kendo revolves around shiai; the match or bout. Bouts in kendo are full contact. Iaido revolves around kata practiced individually; I believe that there are thirteen ZNKR iaido kata. There is no sparring in ZNKR iaido. Nobody cares. They don't practice iaido for the purpose of winning matches.


Actually, taekwondo is more like kendo. It is a modern unarmed art that is trained through kata (pumse/tul/hyeong/whatever Korean term is used) and shihap (sparring contests). The purpose of the sparring is to score points, be it in continuous play or in point/stop sparring. Belts, gender, and age are used for competition bracketing.

The sparring in taekwondo does not resemble any real fight that you will see, regardless of which federation you are dealing with and regardless of the contact level or amount of protective gear worn.

The purpose of taekwondo is similar to the purpose of kendo: to improve the practitioner as a person and member of collective humanity through the practice of taekwondo. Yes, you can defend yourself with taekwondo. But it is not the primary purpose of the art, and not everyone takes it specifically for self defense.

I think my point got lost in my ramblin.
They have changed TKD into something that it wasnt before and if you're gonna do that then you should change the name as well.

Let me ask you......if it was a Kyokushinkai school fightin the same way as the ATA would make the same argument?

 

[Kinghercules]

For some reason I thought you were an ATA instructor. . .



I think a big difference is that iaido doesn't pretend to be something it's not. ATA TKD calls itself just that, TKD, and if you're going to identify yourself with that martial art then people are going to expect certain things. If they didn't call what they do TKD then they could avoid being held to the standards of such.

Also, isn't iaido the art of drawing the sword? It would be difficult to fashion that into a competitive activity with sparring involved, I'd think.

Exactly!
ATA is frontin and they need to stop.