The value of forms

[drop bear]

i understand that stuff but, i also know that sometimes the application can be a very different movement so wouldn't it be better to train the real technique in a chain of movements instead of the form version of the technique.

It is the drills that get silly. Do the forms then drill applicable.
You need to train your body

i think i am going to break up the forms i teach into partner drills, so that way i am still teaching the forms but, with some benifit and then they just have to add all the drills together to get the form.

 

[Headhunter]

there is also some moves i am trying to understand that i dont know what you would be doing, i have seem some suggestions of what some moves do but they are usely pretty drastic.

You really need to find an instructor you're teaching moves you don't understand. You also need to learn how to teach. You don't understand basic moves. You don't enjoy talking in front of a group of people. You've openly said you don't enjoy part of what you're teaching. You say you want to teach full time yet also want to go do Mma? Well who's going to be running your club while your off doing Mma? You've been running your own place for 2.5 years and still don't know how to structure a class and according to yourself your students aren't improving and you struggling to keep them motivated.

Honestly the fact you've been running a school for nearly 3 years and are coming on this forum asking these questions. It shows you need help, it's not a bad thing, running a school isn't easy and isn't for everyone. Certainly isn't for me. But I've done enough teaching and working with kids in my time to know that if the teacher isn't confident in what he's doing then they're not going to have confidence or respect for the teacher. It's human nature. You need to swallow your pride and contact your instructor or try to recruit a successful instructor to help you. Maybe someone who's retired and could be willing to come in and help.

Yes we can all sit behind our keyboards and throw out ideas. But all that comes off as is a mess. Being a good teacher isn't the same as being a good martial artist. As I've said the class structures, teaching stratergies, the basic understanding of moves and techniques that stuff should already have been worked out before you opened for business. Of course you always learn more as you go along but as long as you have a solid base for your teaching you can accommodate and honestly no offence intended you don't seem to have that sorted yet.

The best thing for you and your students is get to someone there physically to help you. Both with training and understanding moves and just general teaching and structured stuff. If you can't get anyone to help your club. Then on your off nights go be an assistant instructor at another school watch how that instructor does things. Get more experience teaching groups but not being the boss.

Also you're 23. That's not old that's not a lot of time to get that experience with kids as a teacher. When I was 23 I'd been working with kids in a educational school for 2 years and assisting classes since I was 16 but even then I'd never open my own place.


I'm not hating on you or trash talking you. My observations on you could be wrong but that's what I beliege from what I've read. Also the Mma thing juggling a fight career and your own school will certainly not be easy especially without assistants. I mean who's going to run it when your travelling for fights? What happens if you take a beating on Sunday and have to teach Monday? These are things that need thinking about.

I mean no offence by what I'm saying but these are my opinions. You can take them on board or completely ignore me its your choice. I'm no expert school owner. I don't run a school and never have done. But I have run full classes on my own, I have designed lesson plans and outside martial arts I've worked with kids as young as 3 and old as 11 in multiple ways since I was 21 and trust me kids can easily pick up hesitation and insecurity.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I just did a Google search for Front Stance so I'm not sure if this is a front stance for the system you train.

For me stances are transitional pieces. My belief is that the stances are done (trained) at their strongest point so that when needed, I have a good idea of where my strongest stance will be. I use stances when punching but I've found they are more active when it comes to grappling, Below is a picture of me defending against a take down technique. I'm not sure if you can tell on your end, but my legs are in a similar position as the one above. I held the stance for a split second but it was long enough for me to slow the impact, keep my balance, and to redirect his forward movement.

This is another example. Similar situation defending against a single leg take down. In this case I escaped and landed in this position which is difficult to push back. It looks like I'm moving forward in the picture but I was actually retreating. I new the wall was close so I had to take a stance that would make it difficult to be pushed back.

This is a horse stance

Me punching in horse stance doesn't mean that the technique is punching in horse stance. It just means I'm training 2 separate things at one. Strengthening my legs and working on my punching at the same time. Some of the stuff in my forms are for strength building and drilling and not actually the way someone should stand when fighting, Other parts of the form are actual combos. I just had to learn which were which and once I figured that out then I knew which part of the form is for fighting, Which part is for drilling techniques, and which was for strength building.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In the "TKD class structure" thread, I have suggested to teach "partner drills" over "form".

solo drill = partner drill without partner.
form = link a set of solo drills together.

partner drills -> solo drills -> forms

The interested question is "Where did your partner drills come from?"

If your partner drill is side kick, spin back fist,

- Did you learn your combo from a form? or
- Did you learn your combo from sparring, you then create your form afterward?

This may get into chicken and egg issue here.

excellent comparison on the video clips

 

[JowGaWolf]

there is also some moves i am trying to understand that i dont know what you would be doing, i have seem some suggestions of what some moves do but they are usely pretty drastic.

One the things that helps me when I get to a point like this, is to find a sparring partner that has good control This is important because I'm going to get hit a lot and fail a lot before I figure it out. So I would do light sparring with my partner and I would try the technique as I think it works, and then I'll try the same technique different ways. For example, in Jow Ga there's a funny punch which seems totally useless. Student are taught that this technique is used to hit the head. I could never seem to generate the speed and power to make this work. But I kept trying. Then one day. I threw the same technique and redirected a kick that I wasn't expecting to come in. I still goofed on the technique, but the little bit that I got right was enough for me to grasp what just happened. Long story short, It turns that this same technique that is always taught as a punch is excellent for hooking a front kick and throwing my opponent backwards.

Now I no longer train the technique as punching someone in the head, I use it as redirecting kick -> throw opponent backwards. The best thing about it, is that the it's reliable, it doesn't feel like I'm trying to force the technique, and I didn't have to change the technique.from the form. My original problem and lack of understanding was probably because the application of the technique was lost. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it can't be used as a punch but I am saying that using it against a kick feels more natural and true to the form than using it as a punch.

Sometimes you just have to eat a few punches as you try to figure things out. Just make sure your sparring partner has control because if he /she hits too hard, then you will be too afraid to take the risks that you need to take in order to learn. Plus you don't want the hits to be so hard that you walk away with brain injury from trying to figure something out.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But why would anyone allow the form to define the boundary of one’s martial knowledge? I’ve trained several systems that use forms, and in none of them has this been the attitude.

we often see this with Wing Chun debates, where the form defines the boundary of system.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

drill applicable.

Do you want to spend your time to drill your form, or do you want to spend your time to drill your application?

IMO, drill application > drill form.

Here is an example that you "drill your application".

 

[Dirty Dog]

You're running a dojang and you don't understand the purpose of forms? You don't get that the moves are stylized for forms, and modified in use? You think that those movements "don't work" in sparring because they're not done in the exact stylized manner as in forms?
How very very sad.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

we often see this with Wing Chun debates, where the form defines the boundary of system.

- This is against my style's principle.
- My style doesn't do this.
- This will make my style un-pure.
- My style is perfect and complete.
- What you are talking about has nothing to do with my style.
- Maybe in whatever style of kung fu you do but not in my style.
- Why do you always have to compare my style with other styles?
- ...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But why would anyone allow the form to define the boundary of one’s martial knowledge? I’ve trained several systems that use forms, and in none of them has this been the attitude.

If you have cross trained, you won't have such issue. For those who only train 1 style and also think his style is perfect and complete, his mind may not be as open as yours.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You're running a dojang and you don't understand the purpose of forms?

If a teacher teaches his style for performance and health, when his student tries to teach that style for self-defense, this issue will appear.

Student: What should I do if my opponent attacks me as …?
Teacher: MA is for performance and health. If you care about fighting, you should get yourself a gun.
Student: ...

When a chicken talks to a duck, who's fault is this?​

 

[Dirty Dog]

If a teacher teaches his style for performance and health, when his student tries to teach that style for self-defense, this issue will appear.

True enough. If the teacher doesn't understand the system, it cannot be passed on properly. Unfortunately, that seem to be the situation for students in this particular dojang.

When a chicken talks to a duck, who's fault is this?​

I'd say there is plenty of fault to go around. While it is certainly understandable for a new student to not "get" that what they're being taught is incomplete or useless, it's certainly less understandable in one who is approaching the rank needed to run a school. It's a clear example of being promoted beyond ones understanding.
The OP clearly doesn't understand even the basics of forms, and yet is running a school. Kudos to them for finally recognizing that their understanding is very incomplete. But boo to both the OP and their instructor(s) for allowing such a situation to ever arise.

 

[RTKDCMB]

And to me if you do a system where forms are required then that's something that should've been answered long before black belt and teaching level. Not blaming the op that's an instructor error not his own.

He could have asked the question himself.

 

[Dirty Dog]

And to me if you do a system where forms are required then that's something that should've been answered long before black belt and teaching level. Not blaming the op that's an instructor error not his own.

It certainly should be answered long before reaching whatever that system considers a teaching rank. It's an instructor error, but it's also a student error.

He could have asked the question himself.

Should have. Absolutely.

 

[drop bear]

You're running a dojang and you don't understand the purpose of forms? You don't get that the moves are stylized for forms, and modified in use? You think that those movements "don't work" in sparring because they're not done in the exact stylized manner as in forms?
How very very sad.

So long as they are having fun. That is the most important thing.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Step 1 - dig around in these forums. This question has been done a lot. You will find answers that run from they are not useful at all, they are just there to copy and make look cool, all the way to the other end, that there are layers to them, with lots of stuff inside if you look. Read those viewpoints, pick the one you like, and run with it.

Step 2 - if you have not abandoned them yet, it would be good to learn how they were intended to be used. Many people have misunderstood what they are and how they were designed to be used. Look into the Shu Ha Ri pattern. Yes, its Japanese. Many of the founders of TKD studied Karate. Two of them studied with Funakoshi and one studied with Funakoshi's Sensei. By studied, I mean attained black belts, and at least in General Choi's case, he had his own Karate dojo in Japan before returning to Korea. When these guys started teaching TKD, they taught the Karate kata, then renamed them, then rearranged the movements and made their own versions. However, they kept the pattern. Shu Ha Ri is the pattern that the Japanese used to transmit knowledge and skill. The kata / forms part is step 1 of the transmission. When learning to play a musical instrument, they teach you to play the individual notes first. How to read the note, then place your fingers correctly and play the note. They then have you doing exercises playing the different notes and transitioning from one note to the other. Then you start learning scales. No, you don't actually play those finger exercises when performing at concerts... so why learn them? I can learn to play the song I want to play and skip all that stuff.

This is what the kata/forms are. They are a piece of the transmission process. To be specific, they are the first part. They teach you the notes and some scales. If used correctly, they can be the basis that you can build upon, so that you can easily play quite a few different songs and even learn new ones fairly quickly. You will have to do some extra work up front before you get to your favorite song. Or, you can skip straight to your favorite song and study it. Whichever route you take is fine. Both have pros and cons. But take the route that you enjoy.

Here is one essay on Shu Ha Ri that goes into some good detail about how the process should be done. Note that many places, many schools, and many styles now only do the copy for copy sake method... mainly because thats how they were taught.

Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin kai

Thank you for the link; it was very informative and appreciated. Takamura Sensei's essay on Shu-Ha-Ri was eloquent. It discussed the essence and teaching of kata with great understanding. Your posting echoes many of the points I've made in mine re: kata, and your slant on the subject is welcome. The essay was a little esoteric and no doubt much of this will fall on deaf ears, but, IMO, will offer some great insights to the serious martial artist.

 

[Martial D]

You're running a dojang and you don't understand the purpose of forms? You don't get that the moves are stylized for forms, and modified in use? You think that those movements "don't work" in sparring because they're not done in the exact stylized manner as in forms?
How very very sad.

Why train a 'stylized version' of something if it needs to be something else to work?

Why not just train the functional method from step one?

 

[Xue Sheng]

i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.

Forms are not meant to be a choreographed fight, they are meant to teach various aspects of the individual postures of the form. You do forms with intent, with the thought of an opponent. If you do not do the postures of the forms with intent and you do not think of them in application with an opponent you are wasting your time and you are just doing a dance and it is worthless to your martial art.

 

[Danny T]

Step 1 - dig around in these forums. This question has been done a lot. You will find answers that run from they are not useful at all, they are just there to copy and make look cool, all the way to the other end, that there are layers to them, with lots of stuff inside if you look. Read those viewpoints, pick the one you like, and run with it.

Step 2 - if you have not abandoned them yet, it would be good to learn how they were intended to be used. Many people have misunderstood what they are and how they were designed to be used. Look into the Shu Ha Ri pattern. Yes, its Japanese. Many of the founders of TKD studied Karate. Two of them studied with Funakoshi and one studied with Funakoshi's Sensei. By studied, I mean attained black belts, and at least in General Choi's case, he had his own Karate dojo in Japan before returning to Korea. When these guys started teaching TKD, they taught the Karate kata, then renamed them, then rearranged the movements and made their own versions. However, they kept the pattern. Shu Ha Ri is the pattern that the Japanese used to transmit knowledge and skill. The kata / forms part is step 1 of the transmission. When learning to play a musical instrument, they teach you to play the individual notes first. How to read the note, then place your fingers correctly and play the note. They then have you doing exercises playing the different notes and transitioning from one note to the other. Then you start learning scales. No, you don't actually play those finger exercises when performing at concerts... so why learn them? I can learn to play the song I want to play and skip all that stuff.

This is what the kata/forms are. They are a piece of the transmission process. To be specific, they are the first part. They teach you the notes and some scales. If used correctly, they can be the basis that you can build upon, so that you can easily play quite a few different songs and even learn new ones fairly quickly. You will have to do some extra work up front before you get to your favorite song. Or, you can skip straight to your favorite song and study it. Whichever route you take is fine. Both have pros and cons. But take the route that you enjoy.

Here is one essay on Shu Ha Ri that goes into some good detail about how the process should be done. Note that many places, many schools, and many styles now only do the copy for copy sake method... mainly because thats how they were taught.

Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin kai

I'm sorry I didn't read this post earlier. Excellent.

"...many places, many schools, and many styles now only do the copy for copy sake method... mainly because thats how they were taught."

^^^^This!!!!^^^^

 

[Flying Crane]

If you have cross trained, you won't have such issue. For those who only train 1 style and also think his style is perfect and complete, his mind may not be as open as yours.

But even before I trained more than one system, we never saw the forms as the boundary of what we are allowed to do. There was always more, and there was always an understanding that you need to creatively apply what you know. What is in the forms can be applied directly, or modified, or mixed around for application, or used as inspiration for something else, or whatever. But we never saw it as a boundary. We had loads of material that wasn’t even in the forms.