Sport And TMA....Again

[RTKDCMB]

Whoa. Hold on. There is a difference between saying that intentionally fighting on the ground is a bad idea in self defence, and saying that it is a joke. I start to take things personally when you call my style a joke.

Ok, just to be clear I do not think of any style as a joke (poor choice of words on my part), so I apologize if that is the impression you got from my comment, that was certainly not my intent. I was merely pointing out that, although the practitioner obviously had skill, the choice of technique and strategy in that video was a bit silly. The comment was in response to Hanzou saying that what passed for ground defence in many martial arts was a joke and another one about Judo being too gi-dependent so I pointed out, as an example, that any art can have things that are, shall we say, not thought out well. I could mention a Taekwondo technique that I found equally silly against a downward stab where the defender ignored the knife completely, turned his back on it and went straight to an arm lock on the opposite hand.

Does anyone dispute that ANY STYLE against multiple attackers is going to have trouble?

No dispute there.

I get that one doesn't want to be on the ground against multiple attackers. Agreed. But, I'd argue that your style (any style) against multiple attackers is going to have trouble. The amount of trouble depends largely on context: your experience/skill, their experience/skill, their intent (do they want to mug you or kill you?), and the environment.

Absolutely. The guy in the second video obviously knows enough to know that grappling multiple armed opponents is a bad idea enough to make a funny video about it

In my opinion, this should more properly be a conversation about the pros/cons of styles like BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Kyokushin Karate and TKD as opposed to styles with zero sport elements, such as Taijutsu, jujutsu, Goju Ryu or any number of styles.

That would be more in the spirit of the thread but I suspect that it wont stay there for long.

 

[Steve]

Personally, I don't think BJJ is a joke. I have said that intentionally going down may be a bad idea in certain situations.

Frankly, I don't think most people here think it's a joke. What I was getting at is that the rhetoric tends to creep toward the extreme, until people are caught writing things that don't accurately represent their opinion.

IMHO, multi man attacks are a PITA, regardless of the art one trains. I've seen some good multi man stuff and some that was less desirable..lol. I also feel that it's something that needs to be drilled, with specific things, worked on.

I was one that was complaining about the drift. Sure, some drift will happen, and that's fine. I felt that I was pretty specific in what I was looking to talk about, however, unfortunately, the thread turned into a repeat of the "Is BJJ good for SD?" thread.

Oh well.....nobody can say the debate here hasn't been interesting.

I'd be much more interested in a discussion about the merits of sport and competition.

I think san shou is great to watch, and the guys who compete seem to have a well rounded striking game. Do any of the CMA guys here have any problems with it? Do you think it teaches bad habits? Good habits?

What about shuai jiao? Good? Bad? Is there a way to develop the skills without competition? Does anyone think that cross training with Judo would be beneficial? What about with arts that are NOT sport oriented?

 

[RTKDCMB]

the thread turned into a repeat of the "Is BJJ good for SD?" thread.

There I was thinking it was becoming a repeat of the TMA versus MMA thread.

 

[lklawson]

There's a reason Olympic Judo banned the Morote Gari (double leg takedown), from competition. That reason is that the move made it too easy to take Judokas to the ground in competition and score an Ippon.

That's certainly not what the Committee claims.

But, FWIW, most Judoka I know agree with you.

Oh, and it wasn't banned, per se. Attacks to the leg with the hand are disallowed as a primary attack. Which effectively bans the double.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

and I imagine that many of those IJF rules are supported by many in the Judo community because they believe that they're following Kano's wishes for Judo.

You'd imagine wrong. They're wildly unpopular. Frankly, I'm shocked that they still stand. I know some judges that refuse to enforce them in small, local, comps.

I also know competitors who've been shido'ed or DQed for the rules and you can guess how popular the rule is for them.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[ballen0351]

Bullet bullet bullet bullet??? Damn. You'd better be damn sure that you can convince the DA and potential jury that some guy wrestling with you on the ground represented Deadly Force to you and an immediate, inescapable threat. And this is coming from a huge 2A supporter and NRA Certified RSO.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

In his scenario I used a gun only in my home. I believe he said in my bedroom in my living room in my hallway. You break into my home with the intent to harm me or my family you get a bullet. The other scenario was someone trying to rape me. Again legal force is justified to prevent a rape. Other scenarios out in public didn't involve a bullet. Hey but don't let the actual conversation get in the way of your cherry picking to serve your agenda.

 

[K-man]

This was the one I meant to post.

BJJ against multiple attackers;

Mmm! That went well!

 

[lklawson]

Is anyone trying to say you should grapple a guy with a knife?

HELL, YES! There are several key elements to knife defense, one is to stay out of range (good luck), another is to fight with a superior weapon (sword vs knife, etc.), but a third, and absolutely STANDARD for unarmed defense against a knife, is to capture and control the weapon bearing limb. Another word for "capture and control" is "grapple." Yes, it might, or might not, involve striking, either as setup, distraction, finish, or something in between, but "capture and control" is one of the paramount components.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Hanzou]

Good on her and serves him right, but notice that she removed the threat of the knife before she wrestled him to the ground.

I think anyone would if they could. If they can't, then you work with what you got.

My point was more to show Bjj working in an actual SD situation with a knife. Remove the weapon from the equation, then neutralize the opponent using ground control.

 

[lklawson]

In his scenario I used a gun only in my home. I believe he said in my bedroom in my living room in my hallway. You break into my home with the intent to harm me or my family you get a bullet. The other scenario was someone trying to rape me. Again legal force is justified to prevent a rape. Other scenarios out in public didn't involve a bullet.

And I'm saying that, unless you've got a Castle Doctrine in your State, simply breaking into your home and wrestling with you isn't an Affirmative Defense for use of Deadly Force. And I still mean exactly what I said.

Hey but don't let the actual conversation get in the way of your cherry picking to serve your agenda.

Don't get pissy. I agree with a lot of your points. But automatically running to Deadly Force is simply not the only, or best, option. Your decision loop needs to include more than "bullet" or "bullet" or you'll end up on trial.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[MJS]

I'd be much more interested in a discussion about the merits of sport and competition. [/b]

I think san shou is great to watch, and the guys who compete seem to have a well rounded striking game. Do any of the CMA guys here have any problems with it? Do you think it teaches bad habits? Good habits?

What about shuai jiao? Good? Bad? Is there a way to develop the skills without competition? Does anyone think that cross training with Judo would be beneficial? What about with arts that are NOT sport oriented?

Well, let's do it then! I think some of the main things are obvious, ie: the conditioning, the training methods, etc. When a sport fighter learns something, they use what Matt T. calls the "I Method". I think that some non sporting arts, tend to not be as 'alive', for lack of better words, with the way certain things are trained. I may be wrong in saying that, but I'm just going on what I've see in my area.

You mentioned x-training Judo. I'm all for training any ground based art. Of course, nothing says that one has to devote years and years learning the ins and outs, which is fine of course, but at the very least, learn some basics. It just may save your life. And nothing says that methods from each (sport and TMA) can't be geared for each other.

Can skills be developed w/o training? I'd say yes. Sparring in/out of class with training partners, and just testing yourself in general. For example...lets say that I wanted to pressure test one of the stick disarms from Arnis. Start off slow and gradually build up more and more speed and resistance, until your training partner is swinging with the intent that he's really trying to whack you in the head, the arm, the leg, etc. That's a great way to see what works and what doesn't. Funny how when the speed is kicked up a bit, certain things go out the window..lol. Of course, safety should also be present. A padded stick, eye protection, etc. can all be used.

 

[K-man]

Whoa. Hold on. There is a difference between saying that intentionally fighting on the ground is a bad idea in self defence, and saying that it is a joke.

I think you can blame the Little Prince for that. There is hardly a style he hadn't called a joke in one or other of the threads he had taken down his hole.

I start to take things personally when you call my style a joke. Does anyone dispute that ANY STYLE against multiple attackers is going to have trouble? I get that one doesn't want to be on the ground against multiple attackers. Agreed. But, I'd argue that your style (any style) against multiple attackers is going to have trouble. The amount of trouble depends largely on context: your experience/skill, their experience/skill, their intent (do they want to mug you or kill you?), and the environment.

For a bunch of guys complaining that the thread has drifted to become focused on BJJ, you guys seem to be going out of your way to focus on BJJ. How it became BJJ vs Judo, I don't know. But, the fact is, both are "sports" and both are "traditional martial arts." In my opinion, this should more properly be a conversation about the pros/cons of styles like BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Kyokushin Karate and TKD as opposed to styles with zero sport elements, such as Taijutsu, jujutsu, Goju Ryu or any number of styles.

Hell, let's talk pros and cons of san shou vs wing chun.

I don't think it should be a conversation about any style against another as such, or pros and cons that end up style bashing. It was meant to be a discussion about sport and TMA if I can remember back that far.

The fact that RTKDCMB has unearthed a couple of videos showing less than optimal technique or outcome, after all having stupid videos posted demonstrating how ineffective our chose arts are, is pleasant relief.
:asian:

 

[MJS]

There I was thinking it was becoming a repeat of the TMA versus MMA thread.

LOL...yup, that too!

 

[ballen0351]

And I'm saying that, unless you've got a Castle Doctrine in your State, simply breaking into your home and wrestling with you isn't an Affirmative Defense for use of Deadly Force. And I still mean exactly what I said.

Don't get pissy. I agree with a lot of your points. But automatically running to Deadly Force is simply not the only, or best, option. Your decision loop needs to include more than "bullet" or "bullet" or you'll end up on trial.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

What other reason would someone break Into my home? Im a cop everyone knows im a cop. So you break in and physically engage me well your intent is to do me or my family harm. Ill take a trial over the alternative I have enough documented cases of death threats to justify it.
Besides it not shoot first. Its "stop!" "Dont move" wife call 911. You refuse my orders and come at me. Bullet. You run away I'm good leave we will catch you.

 

[K-man]

When striking you use natural forces all the time - its called physics.

Until it becomes less agricultural then it involves biology.

 

[lklawson]

What other reason would someone break Into my home?

Your TV.

Simple burglaries and interrupted burglaries are still more common than home invasions, despite the rise of the latter.

Besides it not shoot first. Its "stop!" "Dont move" wife call 911. You refuse my orders and come at me. Bullet. You run away I'm good leave we will catch you.

Which isn't anywhere close to what you said or implied. I agree with a more nuanced escalation of force and am glad it isn't truly "bullet" as you initially implied.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[MJS]

I don't think it should be a conversation about any style against another as such, or pros and cons that end up style bashing. It was meant to be a discussion about sport and TMA if I can remember back that far.

You'd be correct. I just figured since the thread was already off track....but I'm willing to keep it on the OP, which really should be the first choice.

The fact that RTKDCMB has unearthed a couple of videos showing less than optimal technique or outcome, after all having stupid videos posted demonstrating how ineffective our chose arts are, is pleasant relief.
:asian:

I agree!

I think you can blame the Little Prince for that.

:lol: The Little Prince!! LOL! LOL! LOL!

There is hardly a style he hadn't called a joke in one or other of the threads he had taken down his hole.

Agreed!!

 

[Hanzou]

I think you can blame the Little Prince for that. There is hardly a style he hadn't called a joke in one or other of the threads he had taken down his hole.

Really? Where?

 

[TFP]

Catch wrestling is just grumpy no-gi BJJ.

Figured I'd throw Catch out there to really get this thread going.:2xbird:

 

[K-man]

Does anyone dispute that ANY STYLE against multiple attackers is going to have trouble? I get that one doesn't want to be on the ground against multiple attackers. Agreed. But, I'd argue that your style (any style) against multiple attackers is going to have trouble. The amount of trouble depends largely on context: your experience/skill, their experience/skill, their intent (do they want to mug you or kill you?), and the environment.

This is an interesting comment and one that could be worthy of its own thread which I will start.