Are Martial Sports better for self defense than Martial Arts?

[Yokozuna514]

But does that require sport?

The sport side helps you to develop the tools to deal with pressure situation in a controlled manner. If you don’t practice in a pressurized situation how do you know you won’t choke or freeze when you are in one ?

 

[Yokozuna514]

I've wondered - and can't say, obviously, lacking the experience - whether there would be a significant difference (for someone like me) between sparring during a class and sparring in a tournament, assuming the same rules and intent to win.

I think you will notice that adding a non-compliant opponent who is intent on dominating you will change things immensely. Now you have consequences when you apply a technique incorrectly and often times it will be in front of spectators who may or may not understand the sport but judge you along the lines of their own bias.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One may ask themselves what they will actually be able to do without the benefit of practicing at the hardest level. It’s like the knowing cpr. How ready
Would you be if you took the course but only practiced in the course compared to a person that practices giving cpr on a regular basis (eg: ambulance driver). I think the ambulance driver would be much more prepared to deal with what can come up in that situation.

It’s not only the instructions but how you practice and the frequency/ intensity that will determine your level of preparation.

But does hard sparring really compare to a life-and-death situation? I don't think it actually does. The closest we could come would be what drop bear refers to as "animal day" - where you really go at each other with no restraints other than trying not to cause gross bodily harm. In hard sparring, I'm not really going to get the defend-or-maybe-die reaction. So, hard sparring doesn't really compare to the person who applies their MA in their job. Unfortunately, I can't really think of an analogy for hard sparring within the CPR analogy. There, training seems to go from technical sparring to observing a real attack, to defending a real attack with backup. This is something a lot of self-defense instructors have tried to find a way to get around, for those folks who won't have a need for the skills on a regular basis. There's just not much way of knowing which - if any - of those methods are actually successful in a given program, even those that are based on good research.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The sport side helps you to develop the tools to deal with pressure situation in a controlled manner. If you don’t practice in a pressurized situation how do you know you won’t choke or freeze when you are in one ?

That's what I mean - that can be done without entering a competition (the sport). Same rules, same pressure, just inside the school. There are some differences that we can argue the benefit of (unknown opponent and such), and some that seem inarguable (wider pool to compete against), but the base effect of pressure-testing doesn't require a formal competition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you will notice that adding a non-compliant opponent who is intent on dominating you will change things immensely. Now you have consequences when you apply a technique incorrectly and often times it will be in front of spectators who may or may not understand the sport but judge you along the lines of their own bias.

Again, the latter only matters insofar as the competitor pays attention to them.

For the first part, why does that require an audience? Any good opponent can become non-compliant and bring the intent to dominate.

 

[Yokozuna514]

But does hard sparring really compare to a life-and-death situation? I don't think it actually does.

I don't there are many of us that are practicing to prepare for life and death situations but I would rather spar hard and come as close to it as I can than to never have that opportunity and THINK that I will be as prepared as someone that spars at a higher intensity on a regular basis. My two cents.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't there are many of us that are practicing to prepare for life and death situations but I would rather spar hard and come as close to it as I can than to never have that opportunity and THINK that I will be as prepared as someone that spars at a higher intensity on a regular basis. My two cents.

When I said "life or death" I was referring to the actual use of CPR.

 

[Yokozuna514]

That's what I mean - that can be done without entering a competition (the sport). Same rules, same pressure, just inside the school. There are some differences that we can argue the benefit of (unknown opponent and such), and some that seem inarguable (wider pool to compete against), but the base effect of pressure-testing doesn't require a formal competition.

Actually this is really not the same at all. There are guys that do well at dojo sparring but at a tournament (where everyone you face is a non-compliant opponent) have a lot of difficulties because they are no longer facing their dojo mates who are not intent in putting them down. All your other points are also true but the formal competition gives you that added edge of the unknown that really cannot be found at the school.

 

[Yokozuna514]

When I said "life or death" I was referring to the actual use of CPR.

LOL, ok, let's not get distracted by CPR. I thought it was a reasonable analogy to make but that was before a cup of coffee .

 

[Yokozuna514]

Again, the latter only matters insofar as the competitor pays attention to them.

For the first part, why does that require an audience? Any good opponent can become non-compliant and bring the intent to dominate.

The added pressure of the audience is quite significant. It's like the difference between singing in the shower and singing on America's got talent. Being in front of the public makes some people very uncomfortable. Performing in front of an audience can also be very intimidating. The audience brings out all these factors that one must deal with within their own head as well as worrying about the opponent who's intent and preparation is to put you down.

 

[Hanzou]

It can be done without hard sparring. I've seen it done with no sparring, but it's not a consistent model, in my experience. Light/technical sparring goes a surprisingly long way in developing skills, and moderate sparring covers most of the rest of the way. I think it's like exercise. A little exercise, done consistently, gives most of the life-extending benefits. Moderate exercise, done consistently, gives most of the fitness benefits. Exercising harder definitely has benefits, but the increased benefits are marginal as the exercise gets harder.

Well just for an example the standard side control escape in Bjj requires you to turn into your partner (either via bridging or shrimping) in order to bring your inside knee into their hips to create space. However, when I sparred someone (a former wrestler who was incredibly good at applying top pressure) and I fell into the bottom of his side control my partner drove my upper body forward so that I couldn't turn into him and create the space, even with the arm frame. His driving pressure was so strong that my frame actually worked against me, and the blade of MY hand left a mark on my face.Thus, I immediately realized that that particular side control escape wasn't applicable for every situation and I needed a solution to the problem.

That solution came with a different escape that allowed me to get out of the position almost perfectly. However, I wouldn't have figured that out in a no sparring/light sparring situation. It required hard sparring to figure out, because it was hard sparring that made me realize how dangerous that position could be if I'm dealing with obscenely strong top pressure. I'm glad I found that realization against a training partner on a mat than a mean dude on concrete.

Now, I will concede that I was a bit harsh in my earlier remark. You can definitely gain martial skill, but you develop better martial skill more quickly through hard sparring.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually this is really not the same at all. There are guys that do well at dojo sparring but at a tournament (where everyone you face is a non-compliant opponent) have a lot of difficulties because they are no longer facing their dojo mates who are not intent in putting them down. All your other points are also true but the formal competition gives you that added edge of the unknown that really cannot be found at the school.

I'd agree they commonly are different. But they don't have to be. It depends upon the folks you train with. Most of my dojo mates wouldn't ever bring that intent. A few training partners were capable and willing to do so. Absent them, it would be difficult to get that same level of experience. Definitely easier to find in competition.

That added bit of unknown is what I was referring to earlier.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

LOL, ok, let's not get distracted by CPR. I thought it was a reasonable analogy to make but that was before a cup of coffee .

Agreed. Was just clarifying the confusion about my post. It's not a bad analogy - Steve has brought it up before and it works well for some points. It's just (as most are) incomplete, so we can't chase some points well with it. So, we'll let it die. (Pun entirely intentional.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The added pressure of the audience is quite significant. It's like the difference between singing in the shower and singing on America's got talent. Being in front of the public makes some people very uncomfortable. Performing in front of an audience can also be very intimidating. The audience brings out all these factors that one must deal with within their own head as well as worrying about the opponent who's intent and preparation is to put you down.

I've been on stage many times as a performer, and speak to audiences as a trainer or presenter dozens of times a year. I'm always much more nervous at auditions than at any other point. I'd rather be in front of 1,000 people. In physical activity, I've never been much affected by audience. I've done demonstrations (non-scripted stuff) to moderate audiences of dozens, including folks from competing schools. Audiences only matter as much as they affect me (or anyone else), and that's going to vary by individual - as will the benefit of that experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well just for an example the standard side control escape in Bjj requires you to turn into your partner (either via bridging or shrimping) in order to bring your inside knee into their hips to create space. However, when I sparred someone (a former wrestler who was incredibly good at applying top pressure) and I fell into the bottom of his side control my partner drove my upper body forward so that I couldn't turn into him and create the space, even with the arm frame. His driving pressure was so strong that my frame actually worked against me, and the blade of MY hand left a mark on my face.Thus, I immediately realized that that particular side control escape wasn't applicable for every situation and I needed a solution to the problem.

That solution came with a different escape that allowed me to get out of the position almost perfectly. However, I wouldn't have figured that out in a no sparring/light sparring situation. It required hard sparring to figure out, because it was hard sparring that made me realize how dangerous that position could be if I'm dealing with obscenely strong top pressure. I'm glad I found that realization against a training partner on a mat than a mean dude on concrete.

Now, I will concede that I was a bit harsh in my earlier remark. You can definitely gain martial skill, but you develop better martial skill more quickly through hard sparring.

That is a great example of what I was getting at, Hanzou. And I think BJJ, in general, is a good example of it. Light rolling with appropriate resistance goes a long way to developing good skill. Going a bit harder with increased use of strength and speed to resist goes a good bit further. Going much harder does add some, but it seems to add less (by magnitude) than the previous two steps. What it adds is high-value - there's just less of it.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I'd agree they commonly are different. But they don't have to be.

Respectfully, this is where we can get into circular arguments/discussions. We feel differently about this and that is ok to me. I would suggest you try a competition to see if you can understand my viewpoint a little better but that is neither here not there. If you feel like your training is complete with the things you are doing then that is all that really matters. Whether you find out if you can or cannot deal with the stresses of competition or high pressure situations with non compliant opponents may not bring much more value to your life or training. I can accept that too.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I've been on stage many times as a performer, and speak to audiences as a trainer or presenter dozens of times a year. I'm always much more nervous at auditions than at any other point. I'd rather be in front of 1,000 people. In physical activity, I've never been much affected by audience. I've done demonstrations (non-scripted stuff) to moderate audiences of dozens, including folks from competing schools. Audiences only matter as much as they affect me (or anyone else), and that's going to vary by individual - as will the benefit of that experience.

So you understand the added pressure that an audience can provide. If you are at a point where this is no longer a factor then perhaps you can make that leap that you will perform very similarly when you do MA in a competition. It would be interesting to know wouldn't it ?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Respectfully, this is where we can get into circular arguments/discussions. We feel differently about this and that is ok to me. I would suggest you try a competition to see if you can understand my viewpoint a little better but that is neither here not there. If you feel like your training is complete with the things you are doing then that is all that really matters. Whether you find out if you can or cannot deal with the stresses of competition or high pressure situations with non compliant opponents may not bring much more value to your life or training. I can accept that too.

I'm okay with differing opinions on this. Part of the reason I get into these particular discussions is I'm looking for viewpoints beyond my own - looking for who can show me weaknesses in my though patter that I'm not aware of.

In case I haven't been clear, I think the easiest, most reliable way to get this is via some sort of appropriate competition. I sometimes rankle at blanket statements that put competition and "martial arts" as different things (and this is as common from the "MA" side). They really don't have to be. Training can include solid resistance without competition, and some competitions don't provide much benefit for fight training development. But competition is a reliable way to find resistance to test against to further develop MA skills.

On a side note, in case you haven't run into it on the other threads, I've actually been looking into competitions I'd like to try out. I've no idea how much my body can take anymore (precisely, how much my knees and feet can take), but mixing it up in some moderate competitions seems like fun I've missed out on. So, I'm hoping to find someplace to give it a go next year. And - assuming I manage to find someplace to re-start my program - I'll be encouraging students to consider finding competitions to participate in.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you understand the added pressure that an audience can provide. If you are at a point where this is no longer a factor then perhaps you can make that leap that you will perform very similarly when you do MA in a competition. It would be interesting to know wouldn't it ?

Agreed. I've wondered whether the audience would feel like an audition, or more like my other experiences with audiences. I suspect the latter, but it will be interesting to find out.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I'm okay with differing opinions on this. Part of the reason I get into these particular discussions is I'm looking for viewpoints beyond my own - looking for who can show me weaknesses in my though patter that I'm not aware of.

I will try and keep that in mind when we are interacting in the forum. I am traditionally NOT looking for weaknesses in peoples thought patterns in a forum. I appreciate that we all have our own particular 'bend' so one solution may not fit all but I will try and help you find the insights you are looking for if the situations present themselves.

They really don't have to be. Training can include solid resistance without competition, and some competitions don't provide much benefit for fight training development. But competition is a reliable way to find resistance to test against to further develop MA skills.

No one will deny that you can still learn something without competitions but, to me, competitions are like the 'test' of your training. When you can test your training, you can see the truth of it. Imagine going to school without ever being tested. How would you know you have learned anything ? How would know you know if you can use what you learned in a pressurized situation ?

So, I'm hoping to find someplace to give it a go next year.

I applaud you and your willingness to put yourself and your training on the line. Depending on the experience I would expect you will be able to answer many of the questions we have been discussing. Looking forward to following your progress.