Sport And TMA....Again
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
I'm sure we can think of something.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I agree with the first part, but the length of time it takes to "finish" an opponent has nothing to do with efficiency.
It takes a little time to level a mountain. Patience and strategy are as much a part of grappling as anything else.
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Wes Yager (seasoned)
Senior MT Moderator
If you find during your discourses here at MT that there is a point of view that you simply cannot reconcile yourselves to, then the simplest of approaches is not to take part in those threads.
As moderators our job is to maintain the integrity of the site and help the site to continue to remain the friendly martial arts community it is. It is important to remember that not only are the Mods taking note of interaction among members, but also many nonparticipants.
Likewise, if there is a particular poster that you cannot respond to civilly or that you feel has breached the regulations of the forum in some fashion, then there are two tools available to you to cope with this:
(1) If you cannot get along with someone else, then place them on your Ignore List.
(2) If a breach of the regulations has occurred then use the RTM function so that the Staff can deal with the problem.
The temptation to "have it out" in a public forum should be resisted at all costs.
Wes Yager (seasoned)
Senior MT Moderator
Mauthos
2nd Black Belt
Just out of curiosity a lot of people have mentioned Matt Hughes vs Royce Gracie as a way of proving that you need a well rounded skillset to compete in the UFC and that one 'pure' style fighter, whether that be BJJ or Kick Boxing for example, will probably be dominated and defeated.
Does no one remember that Matt Hughes also beat Renzo Gracie by TKO in the UFC proving that you definitely need more than 1 type of martial art under your belt to win? Both men are mainly grapplers, Matt Hughes - wrestling and obviously Renzo Gracie - BJJ. Both didn't use their grappling at all iirc, in fact I think Matt only took Renzo down once in the second round and then pretty much won by using strong low leg kicks. (In my opinion it was a relatively boring fight and neither fighter was particularly impressive, but that's just my opinion)
Does no one remember that Matt Hughes also beat Renzo Gracie by TKO in the UFC proving that you definitely need more than 1 type of martial art under your belt to win? Both men are mainly grapplers, Matt Hughes - wrestling and obviously Renzo Gracie - BJJ. Both didn't use their grappling at all iirc, in fact I think Matt only took Renzo down once in the second round and then pretty much won by using strong low leg kicks. (In my opinion it was a relatively boring fight and neither fighter was particularly impressive, but that's just my opinion)
lklawson
Grandmaster
Sure. But the phrase "dirty tricks" sums up a class of techniques which, when used independent of other combinations, is more-or-less low percentage but are often viewed as massively destructive fight enders. The two most common are eye pokes and groin grabs. There's a reason that they're viewed as "dirty." It's because they can be, in fact, quite injurious. However, as I wrote, they're often quite hard to achieve as an independent technique. They are, or at least were, frequently referenced as a quick way to stop "Sport Fighters." However, as I wrote earlier, the assumption that "Sport Fighters" can't take advantage of "dirty tricks" themselves is, at best, self delusion. Further, as I also earlier wrote, basic grappling skills will frequently allow a person to make these "dirty tricks" much higher percentage while the same basic grappling skills can help to dramatically limit the opponent's ability to perform these "dirty tricks."
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
You should know that I'm a long time Judoka and study C&E and a smidge of CaCC as well. I teach Judo (an "assistant instructor" in my view) at the local Y under 7th Dan, Bob Spraley. Did you think I republished all of those old CaCC manuals because I like looking at B&W pics of men in speedos?
No. I was actually "assuming" that both top and bottom position are grapplers. You don't get good side-control by accident. And north-south is a non-intuitive control position to take.
Which is exactly what I wrote.
I think you must have gotten confused. What I wrote is the guy on the bottom position of a north-south or a side-control is going to have a hard time doing effective knee-strikes because his body movement is being smothered by the top man and because the position of the top man doesn't present effective targets for the bottom man to throw knees at. Conversely, the top man is in a very good position to throw knees at the bottom man because he can shift his body and get some full-body movement into it, including, if desired, momentarily disengage from the bottom man in order to really get some body english into the knee strike.
One of us needs to re-read what I wrote because either you misunderstood what I wrote or I did a really terrible job of writing it the first time.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
That depends on what you mean by "inefficient." One of the major advantages to ground work for a skilled grappler is that it gives him the ability to dramatically limit his opponent's ability to strike heavily. It's a good way to be very defensive without having to be equally offensive. This has the further advantage of granting the man time to work. If the opponent is smothered out and can't effectively attack, they you can take your sweet time getting a perfect sub, or just stall him while he wears himself out. That's pretty darned efficient when you think about it. Just not necessarily "fast."
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
This is IMO just shows the importance of good grappling (Hughes Takedown Defense) but also the extreme importance of being well rounded. Remember, grappling is not just takedowns, top control. & guard..........
so I would counter that theory of yours by saying Matt Hughes superior grappling (his takedown defense) helped him win the fight. Because Hughes was an all around better grappler than Renzo he was able to dictate where the fight took place. And since Hughes was the better striker he kept the fight standing. Renzo did try a couple takedowns unsuccessfully. Also add in there age and wear on there body as a reason not more effort was put into a ground fight.
Hughes superior grappling (wrestling) kept that fight standing. A similar fight Renzo vs Frank was the opposite. Frank was a better striker than Renzo, just like Hughes. But Frank lacked the Takedown defense of Hughes so Gracie was able to take the fight to the ground where he wanted it...... Problem is Framk was better on the ground and winning the fight up until the DQ.
want another great example? One of the best grapplers in UFC history was......Chuck Liddell! Yup, the Kempo striker would not have been as successful of a striker in the UFC if he wasn't first a great wrestler! What lead to Liddells run at 205lbs? His ability to keep grapplers like Courture, Ortiz, Sobral and Horn on there feet!
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You should know that I'm a long time Judoka and study C&E and a smidge of CaCC as well. I teach Judo (an "assistant instructor" in my view) at the local Y under 7th Dan, Bob Spraley. Did you think I republished all of those old CaCC manuals because I like looking at B&W pics of men in speedos?
No. I was actually "assuming" that both top and bottom position are grapplers. You don't get good side-control by accident. And north-south is a non-intuitive control position to take.
Which is exactly what I wrote.
I think you must have gotten confused. What I wrote is the guy on the bottom position of a north-south or a side-control is going to have a hard time doing effective knee-strikes because his body movement is being smothered by the top man and because the position of the top man doesn't present effective targets for the bottom man to throw knees at. Conversely, the top man is in a very good position to throw knees at the bottom man because he can shift his body and get some full-body movement into it, including, if desired, momentarily disengage from the bottom man in order to really get some body english into the knee strike.
One of us needs to re-read what I wrote because either you misunderstood what I wrote or I did a really terrible job of writing it the first time.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
i think my confusion came from the fact that I thought we were talking grappler vs standup fighter and then you wrote what you did. So I was assuming that not both guys were grapplers and that since one guy was on the bottom he must be the grappler, while the guy ontop was a striker.
my apologizes!
was t the original question "would knee strikes on the ground be more advantageous to the striker or grappler"? If so I still contend that knee strikes on the ground or to a grounded opponent gives the grappler a huge advantage. Knee strikes to a shooting opponent are already allowed.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Fair enough.
I think it's more accurate to say that it could potentially give someone with good ground skills a huge advantage. It could also be a wash. I don't see it giving any sort of dramatic advantage to someone lacking good ground skills, baring dumb luck.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
It usually comes down to a "a failed takedown attempt" with the grappler on his knees in front of his opponent getting kneed or soccer kicked vs. "taking someone down, getting a dominant top position and landing knee strikes to there head".
but also I think having the standup up grappling to toss someone on the ground in front of you and being able to stomp/ kick there head.....
im im still leaning toward it being more advantages to the grappler. But I can see the "wash" theory as well.
Do you mind if I post your book link onto a CACC forumn?
Mauthos
2nd Black Belt
Although I actually agree with you here as I do believe that his grappling ability enabled him to keep fights standing, he even had, at one point, a great stat which, iirc, was that he had not been kept down for longer than 13 seconds at a time. However, he wasn't a wrestler first. He was taught boxing by his grandfather and then moved into a karate, the style I can't remember but the tattoo on his scalp is the kanji for that style. When he went to college he took up wrestling and was relatively good, but, in my opinion it didn't help him that much in the UFC. For example, when he met Jeremey Horn for the first time, he was taken down easily and choked out cold, left lying in the ring at the end of the round with big John McCarthy only knowing he was out when Horn let him go. In his book he even states himself that he had no clue what had happened and decided he needed to learn some form of better grappling to prevent it from happening again. Therefore, he took up BJJ for the sole purpose of being able to use it to prevent anyone using it on him. So, in that respect the BJJ he learnt definitely meant that he kept the various grapplers he fought at a distance and on their feet, however, considering that some of his knockouts came early in the first round in his prime, I would not attribute all his wins to the fact that he had learnt some grappling.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Such an interesting post, full of facts and just so far off on others.
you are correct. Chuck started out with boxing under his grandpa but very informal.
Started Karate at age 12, and wrestling shortly after. He didn't "take up wrestling" in college. One doesn't simply make a D-1 wrestling program without extensive high school exeperience. Chuck was a 2 star athlete in Football/Wrestling and actually played both in his freshman year of college but had to pick between the two as it was to tough to do both, study and work. He chose wrestling.
i have no idea how you can say you don't think his wrestling helped him much in MMA because it's widely known as one of the biggest reasons he was ontop of the sport for so long.
yes he did get choked out by Jeremy Horn, but Horn had almost 30 fights at this point and Chuck had 2. This was simply an issue of experience and Chuck actually had no idea he was in trouble, thinking it was a simple wrestling headlock and not knowing what a head and arm choke was. But Chuck was already studying BJJ before this fight, he was just very green. He actually won a fight 26 days later via Rear Naked Choke.
and no, Chuck did not use BJJ to keep fighters at a distance, that was wrestling! Sprawl, Take Down Defense, and scrambling back up from the bottom.
All i I was saying was Chuck Liddell was a great example of being a better grappler (defensive wrestling) than most his opponents (offensive wrestling/offensive BJJ) and because of this he could use his great striking. This is an example of why grappling is important to a striker, otherwise Chuck would of been a great striker who got choked a lot!
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