Sport And TMA....Again

[Hanzou]

The techniques have not been banned. They cannot be used as an opening technique, but are legal to use as a followup or as a counter.

From the IJF;

The International Judo Federation Refereeing Commission announced one change in the rules of judo during the IJF Ordinary Congress in Rotterdam/NED, last Sunday (23rd August).All techniques below the belt line will not be allowed anymore. This includes double leg and single leg takedowns as well as fireman carry maneuvers (in most cases).
Any athlete trying to grip the opponent´s leg will be punished with a shido (first time). If another try happens, he will be banned from the combat (hansokumake) and the victory will be given to the opponent. Only techniques using leg against leg will be allowed, or if the hand grip in the leg is the continuation of another technique tried (example: ouchigari which can develop into kataguruma).

Sounds like banning to me.

I did not miss it. Again please explain how judo's natural evolution should be decided by a bunch of high schools kids. Not the founder's vision. Bonus points for using your own words, not a repeat cut and paste. Why did Kano institute the rule changes?

I already did. Clearly, Newaza became the preferred method of competition, becoming extremely popular as Newaza practitioners began winning competitions over Nagewaza practitioners. Kano didn't like that so he changed the rules. Its simple, and falls in line with his preference towards standing techniques. My personal belief is that Kano didn't want Judo to become a wrestling style, and reinforcing the importance of throws over grappling achieved that goal (in his mind). The problem with this belief is that it led to decades of Judo getting tooled by wrestlers because it wouldn't adapt. That recent rule change from the IJF is yet another example of that. Russian and Mongolian Judokas were entering into the Olympics with strong wrestling backgrounds, and were dumping people with single and double leg tackdowns.

Bjj/Gjj on the other hand adapted and freely incorporated wrestling into its system. AKA a more direct link to pre-war Judo because Gjj/Bjj's evolution was free of Kano and the IJF's interference.

Its to the point now where many Bjj instructors say that its better for a Bjj stylist to learn wrestling takedowns over Judo throws.

 

[ballen0351]

I think judo is trying to get away from the ground game now to show contrast from BJJ grappling comps. But this is a modern thing and has nothing to do with Kano

 

[Hanzou]

I think judo is trying to get away from the ground game now to show contrast from BJJ grappling comps. But this is a modern thing and has nothing to do with Kano

Kano was the one that got the ball rolling in 1926 with the rule change though, and I imagine that many of those IJF rules are supported by many in the Judo community because they believe that they're following Kano's wishes for Judo.

I agree that many Judoka wish to form a contrast from Bjj, however they should seriously look at what modern Bjj is doing and consider adapting some of its teaching in a similar direction.

No gi Judo would be a wonderful start.

 

[Spinedoc]

I respect Kano's vision, but clearly grappling and newaza was taking hold in competitive Judo. Kano decided to curb that, and reinforce the throwing techniques. If he hadn't done that, modern Judo would probably more closely resemble Gjj/Bjj.

You don't know that. You're speculating as to what Judo would have or would not have become. Look, you like BJJ....cool. Good for you. I don't need it and the competition thing at this point in my life turns me off. TWENTY years ago, when I was in my early 20's, I might have been all over that. I'm married, have a daughter and am in a VERY, VERY different phase of my life now. As far as ground fighting, if someone manages to take me down, I wrestled long enough to know plenty of escapes and counters (High School). Also, I'm a fairly big guy and I'm pretty strong (military). I'm not scared of someone taking me down.

You want everyone to train BJJ, but guess what, MOST of us won't. I respect the BJJ guys, heck, we have one in our Aikido dojo, trained both GJJ, and then another form of BJJ. First off, he's a helluva guy and would be first to admit that BJJ is far from a perfect art, and that it is NOT ideal for all fighting situations. It works in some. He's also trained in TKD. One of the things he's said is that the subtlety and nuance in Aikido is far beyond anything in BJJ. He also has stated he feels off balance most of the time (like myself at this point) and that a real experienced aikidoka could easily disrupt his balance and throw him down (and he's pretty experienced in BJJ arts). He's honest about his limitations and the limitations of BJJ. He's trying to train in other things.

Honestly, you need to respect that others on here do not share your views and that they train other arts for, well, other reasons.

Peace,

Mike

 

[Hanzou]

Spinedoc, you've greatly misunderstood my posts if you believe that I want everyone to train in Bjj.

What I'd like to see is more Judo dojos shake off the IJF B.S. and adapt more to the changing landscape of modern grappling.

As for other arts like Karate, Ninjutsu, and Kung Fu, the practitioners of those styles can do whatever the heck they want.

 

[ballen0351]

Who says people don't do no GI judo. We have 1 class every 6 weeks or so where we come in street clothes and go outside if weathers nice and practice throws and ground game like I said my judo teacher says sport is secondary in judo We do the same for Goju as well but that's once a month sometimes more

 

[Hanzou]

Who says people don't do no GI judo. We have 1 class every 6 weeks or so where we come in street clothes and go outside if weathers nice and practice throws and ground game like I said my judo teacher says sport is secondary in judo We do the same for Goju as well but that's once a month sometimes more

Yeah, that's what I mean. It should be done 2-3 times a week at least, and inside the dojo. Not outside every few months when you guys want to prove a point. Its should be a consistent part of your learning, like it is in Bjj.

That's just my opinion though.

The gi-based throws sure are pretty;

However, its amazing how many throws must be eliminated w/o the gi. That's part of the reason Bjj resorted to more wrestling takedowns and throws in its evolution.

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah, that's what I mean. It should be done 2-3 times a week at least, and inside the dojo. Not outside every few months when you guys want to prove a point. Its should be a consistent part of your learning, like it is in Bjj.

That's just my opinion though.

The gi-based throws sure are pretty;

However, its amazing how many throws must be eliminated w/o the gi. That's part of the reason Bjj resorted to more wrestling takedowns and throws in its evolution.

Why do we need to do it more? There isn't much difference between a gi and no GI. If you can throw with a GI yyou can throw without.

 

[frank raud]

Spinedoc, you've greatly misunderstood my posts if you believe that I want everyone to train in Bjj.

What I'd like to see is more Judo dojos shake off the IJF B.S. and adapt more to the changing landscape of modern grappling.

As for other arts like Karate, Ninjutsu, and Kung Fu, the practitioners of those styles can do whatever the heck they want.

So , judo should adapt by doing no gi and institute more wrestling, as well as train 2-3 times a week in street clothes, but other "traditional arts" have no need to change and can do whatever they want? Why not do BJJ or MMA, mix in a little RBSD and leave judo alone, like the other TMAs? If this were to happen, would judo than be more traditional or more progressive than BJJ, or would it be much harder to tell them apart?

 

[frank raud]

From the IJF;






Sounds like banning to me.



I already did. Clearly, Newaza became the preferred method of competition, becoming extremely popular as Newaza practitioners began winning competitions over Nagewaza practitioners. Kano didn't like that so he changed the rules. Its simple, and falls in line with his preference towards standing techniques. My personal belief is that Kano didn't want Judo to become a wrestling style, and reinforcing the importance of throws over grappling achieved that goal (in his mind). The problem with this belief is that it led to decades of Judo getting tooled by wrestlers because it wouldn't adapt. That recent rule change from the IJF is yet another example of that. Russian and Mongolian Judokas were entering into the Olympics with strong wrestling backgrounds, and were dumping people with single and double leg tackdowns.

Bjj/Gjj on the other hand adapted and freely incorporated wrestling into its system. AKA a more direct link to pre-war Judo because Gjj/Bjj's evolution was free of Kano and the IJF's interference.

Its to the point now where many Bjj instructors say that its better for a Bjj stylist to learn wrestling takedowns over Judo throws.

Kosen judo is predominantly ground grappling. Kano was the founder, spiritual guide, visionary who got to decide exactly what course HIS martial art and vision took. He did not believe that focussing on newaza only was sufficient for the development and education of judoka. He believed that a portion of training should be devoted to kata, another portion to nagwaza and another portion to randori, including newaza. Kosen judo does not fit those parameters. Rules were instituted(as they often are) to ensure the founder's vision was respected.

 

[K-man]

What at a smorgasbord.

Of course, and that usually happens after two guys get into a clinch, and someone falls to the ground.


Like Ballen, I train not to go to the ground. If someone falls to the ground, chances are it's my opponent.


However, my point to Kframe was that you can pick up standup easily without much training. However, if he's going to a legit Gjj school, they'll be teaching him Judo throws, wrestling takedowns, and set ups from striking range, all while developing a strong ground game. So he shouldn't worry about being able to fight on his feet.


Here's me still training standup after all these years and still learning. I must be a very slow learner.

Read post #602. Judo's natural evolution was heading towards a stronger Newaza slant. Kano purposely curbed that evolution because he preferred standing throws. Olympic Judo has continued that push.

Not sure that the answer had anything to do with the question! Still, why would Kano prefer standing throws? Could it be in RBSD judo you don't want to automatically go to the ground?

Its pretty hard to fight gravity.


Thank God, it happens every time I fly.


And Bjj will teach him to get back up in the quickest way possible.


No. Many styles will teach you how to quickly regain your feet. For me regaining my feet is top of mind. For BJJ it's not. You do what you train when under pressure.

And I spend half my class helping gravity do its job by learning how to take people off their feet. Judoka, Football players, wrestlers, etc. have all been taken down. As a Judoka, you ought to know that there's numerous ways to throw someone down, but no one has developed a perfect method of not getting taken down.


And I spend a lot of time learning how to put my opponent on the ground.


Because of that, its better to know what to do on the ground, instead of training to avoid getting taken to the ground. It's also better to work with natural forces than against them.


Most arts teach enough groundwork to be competent on the ground except against a specialist grappler. I know enough on the ground to feel comfortable. As far as I'm concerned working with natural forces is using my opponent's momentum to redirect him to my advantage.


Even more reason to know what to do if you ever end up there instead of attempting to avoid that fighting phase completely.


All RBSD art avoids going to the ground if possible. None of them avoid or dismiss ground fighting.

So you're saying that Judokas have never been taken down, football players have never been tackled, and wrestlers have never been slammed to the mat?


I don't think anyone said that at all.

Okay, but what if happens in your living room? Your bed room? A sidewalk? Your front lawn? In a hallway? In a classroom? The backseat of a car? In a playground? etc. There's too many variables at play to simply have a strategy of never going to the ground. In some cases you won't have that choice. In others, it may be the only way to neutralize someone long enough for you to get away.

Nobody is advocating a strategy of never going to the ground. Just that going to the ground in a real life situation should never be the number one go to strategy.

If they aren't teaching you ground fighting, they aren't teaching you how to get off the ground in the fastest way possible.

That is patently untrue. In Aikido we train constantly to regain your feet. In Systema we train to regain our feet. Same in Krav and I teach it in Goju. None of those arts train to stay on the ground. I would have thought that the arts that specifically train to regain your feet might be better than those that advocate mainly ground fighting.

The point is you can always get someone to the ground. Every movement someone does potentially takes them off balance, which is why people who train to never get taken down, still get taken down.


For me, except in Aikido, the main time I get taken to the ground is when someone grabs my gi. That is unlikely to occur on the street.


And if you're unarmed? Backseat of the car is usually a rape situation. As is a bedroom, living room, etc.


Unlike Ballen, I don't have a gun and feel no need to have a gun. In my car, well I think that totally unlikely and in my bedroom or living room I have two German Shepherds to assist.


As I've often said, the ground is the place where the worse things take place. If the fight remains standing, you're generally okay. You can always disengage and walk/run away if your standing.


Once again, patently untrue. I can have you in multiple holds that you won't walk away from, even with your BJJ skills.


If someone wants to really hurt you, they will try to take YOU to the ground and control you.


Again, not true. If I really wanted to hurt someone I would do it from a standing position.


The ground is where people's heads are caved in, people are choked to death, people are stomped, women are raped, etc.


Exactly, which makes a pretty strong arguement for not make the ground your main objective. Isn't that ironic!

Which is why its a good thing to know what to do if/when that happens. That's also the point I was making to Kframe. Standing up is no big deal. The ground is where you really want to know how to fight.


Absolute garbage! Standing up fighting is real big deal! The ground is secondary. Important but not where most people want to be.

Can't help but style bash can you?

I find that argument ironic coming from a martial artist. If we could simply train ourselves to avoid a potentially dangerous situation, then why train how to fight? We train to fight "in case something happens" and our avoidance tactics fail. I've avoided plenty of fights using verbal Jiujitsu, but its good to know that I have Brazilian Jiujitsu in case that fails. The same can be said for if someone wants to take me down. Yes I have tools to keep myself on my feet, but I also have tools in case I end up off my feet.


Ironic? Not really if you understand the meaning of irony. For reality based self defence avoiding conflict is number one. If you can avoid conflict there will be no issue. Once you engage all the unknown variables come into play. You don't always know who you are fighting or how many you are fighting. If you hurt someone you could be charged with anything up as far as murder or if you are the one hurt you could end up paralysed for the rest of your life. Training to fight is fine for sport. Training to firstly avoid the fight is best for RBSD.


Considering that you have Judokas, Football players, Wrestlers, and MMA fighters who all train hard to not get taken down, get taken down rather consistently shows that its far easier to get taken down than many people realize. These people are taken down by double leg takedowns, tackles, trips, and general wrestling locks and holds. These are simple moves that the general population is fully capable of learning without formal training.


Judo players, wrestlers and MMA fighters all expect to go to the ground. Footballers, if they go to the ground get up and keep playing. As for those moves being simple? Maybe not so simple that to be effective you don't have to train them.


In 1935 Kano received the Asahi Prize for outstanding contributions in the fields of art, science and sports. Three years later he went to an IOC meeting in Cairo and succeeded in getting Tokyo nominated for the site of the 1940 Olympics at which Judo was to be included as one of the events for the first time.


Now this is not so cut and dry. I can find multiple references to a Martial Art being included but only one source that is quoted by all others to suggest that art was Judo. When you consider that Kano wasn't keen to have Judo included, why was it going to be Judo?

Honestly Gjj would be better than Judo if your goal is to wrestle. Judo is too gi-dependent. Most Bjj/Gjj schools cross train with wrestling constantly. There's also no gi, which is mechanically very similar to wrestling.

That's a pretty short sighted statement. None of my training involves using the gi.

Good thing Bjj teaches ukemi as well.


Really? Did BJJ get that from Ninjutsu, Jujutsu, Aikido or Karate?


You never heard of date rape?


Is that 'Sport' or 'TMA'?


I am generalizing, but if you're laying on the ground fighting someone, that tends to be a more serious altercation than both of you standing up exchanging blows.


If you say so! I can't really see the difference.


How else would you be able to disengage and run away from a situation unless you're standing? Butt scoot?


???? If you are locked up it might be hard to run away whether you are on the ground or standing.


Again I disagree. Plenty of people have been seriously hurt or even killed by the ground and pound, choked, or getting their head smacked into the concrete. That was done without weapons. If you're both standing and he has a knife on you and wants your wallet, you can throw him your wallet and run away. If he's on top of you with a knife on you, he wants to kill you. However, there's way too many variables to make this into a worthwhile discussion. My point was that things are more serious on the ground, so its a good idea to know how to fight on or from the ground.


If being on the ground is so bad, perhaps you should train more to avoid being there. Your statement here is a true example of 'ironic'.

Doesn't that make Judo useless, since its entirely based on throwing someone to the ground, or taking them down?

That is not what Ballen was saying at all. He was saying that you don't always succeed in the takedown. If you miss a takedown in Judo or MMA you get to have another go. If you miss it in a street fight you might be in big trouble.

Not all of us are less than pretty male cops either. However I also happen to be a less than pretty male, so I feel your pain.

From your avatar, I think you are very pretty.

There's a reason Olympic Judo banned the Morote Gari (double leg takedown), from competition. That reason is that the move made it too easy to take Judokas to the ground in competition and score an Ippon. I would say that Olympic Judo practitioners have some of the best balance and Ukemi in MA.

Is there any evidence to support this assertion?

If the best Judokas in the world couldn't stop the double leg takedown.......

Or this?

You missed my point. Even the most balanced people can and will get taken down. The IJF banning the Morote Gari is just one example.

Sometimes, but I disagree with you IJF hypothesis unless you have some evidence.


On a side note, I wish Judo was more open to MMA influence. Bjj and MMA are already mining Judo for throws to change up the stand up game, and you're starting to see Bjj and Wrestling's transition speed being applied to Judo with no gi applications. Its creating a nasty combination that's going to change grappling, MMA, and martial arts in general once it takes hold.

So, as a result Judo should change! Really?

Here's one example;

And leaves himself wide open to a downward elbow strike to the spine in a real situation.

DLT fail to Harai Goshi.


Brings a tear to my eye.

Yeah, that must have been one hell of a sales pitch. I wouldn't be dropping that much upfront for 2 years. What if something happens and you can't train? That's crazy.

My Aikido training is $200 a month. Sometimes you have to pay to get top instruction.

Draw your own conclusions. My point was merely to show that Kano preferred throwing techniques and the rules of Judo have towed that line at the expense of Newaza. The most recent example being the banning of Morote Gari and Kuchiki Taoshi.

Or maybe he didn't want a sport that was boring!

I respect Kano's vision, but clearly grappling and newaza was taking hold in competitive Judo. Kano decided to curb that, and reinforce the throwing techniques. If he hadn't done that, modern Judo would probably more closely resemble Gjj/Bjj.

Martial Judo more resembles MMA.

Kano was the one that got the ball rolling in 1926 with the rule change though, and I imagine that many of those IJF rules are supported by many in the Judo community because they believe that they're following Kano's wishes for Judo.

As a sport!

I agree that many Judoka wish to form a contrast from Bjj, however they should seriously look at what modern Bjj is doing and consider adapting some of its teaching in a similar direction.

Rubbish! Judo is Judo, BJJ is BJJ. If we all took our MA and taught BJJ we would have none of the other arts, or is that what you are suggesting?

No gi Judo would be a wonderful start.

Spinedoc, you've greatly misunderstood my posts if you believe that I want everyone to train in Bjj.

It's easy to see how such a misunderstanding could occur.

What I'd like to see is more Judo dojos shake off the IJF B.S. and adapt more to the changing landscape of modern grappling.

Sort of more like BJJ?

As for other arts like Karate, Ninjutsu, and Kung Fu, the practitioners of those styles can do whatever the heck they want.

We will, but I appreciate your permission!

Yeah, that's what I mean. It should be done 2-3 times a week at least, and inside the dojo. Not outside every few months when you guys want to prove a point. Its should be a consistent part of your learning, like it is in Bjj.

Of course, but how does that fit in with the people who can only train once or twice a week. You know, the vast majority.

That's just my opinion though.

Perfectly unbiased as always!

The gi-based throws sure are pretty;

However, its amazing how many throws must be eliminated w/o the gi. That's part of the reason Bjj resorted to more wrestling takedowns and throws in its evolution.

We are indeed fortunate that in everything I train we didn't go down that track.

Hanzou, may I applaud your choice of Avatar. From henceforth I shall recognise you as the Little Prince.

 

[Hanzou]

Kosen judo is predominantly ground grappling. Kano was the founder, spiritual guide, visionary who got to decide exactly what course HIS martial art and vision took. He did not believe that focussing on newaza only was sufficient for the development and education of judoka. He believed that a portion of training should be devoted to kata, another portion to nagwaza and another portion to randori, including newaza. Kosen judo does not fit those parameters. Rules were instituted(as they often are) to ensure the founder's vision was respected.

I'm well aware of that.

 

[RTKDCMB]

THE GROUND IS THE OCEAN. IM THE SHARK AND MOST PEOPLE DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO SWIM!

I think you will find that sharks are pretty useless on dry land so why jump in the water?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Personal experience. Some of the stuff taught in MA schools for self defense on the ground is a joke. Also doing it once or twice a year in a seminar isn't very helpful either. It needs to be drilled and practiced, and tested consistently. Especially for women, who are more likely to not only be attacked, but be forced to be on the ground by a stronger attacker.

Honestly Gjj would be better than Judo if your goal is to wrestle. Judo is too gi-dependent. Most Bjj/Gjj schools cross train with wrestling constantly. There's also no gi, which is mechanically very similar to wrestling.

An example of both ground defence being a joke and being too gi-dependent.

BJJ against multiple attackers

 

[RTKDCMB]

Also doing it once or twice a year in a seminar isn't very helpful either. It needs to be drilled and practiced, and tested consistently.

Twice a year is never enough, that is why ground defences are taught on a regular basis, no more or less than the defence to any other hold.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I am generalizing, but if you're laying on the ground fighting someone, that tends to be a more serious altercation than both of you standing up exchanging blows.

That is just a matter of opinion and circumstance, most of the fights that I have seen that involve both combatants being on the ground have resulted in no more than some harmless unskilled wrestling.

My point was that things are more serious on the ground,

Just ask the many people who have been killed by a one punch knocout as to what is more serious, no wait you can't - they're dead. Again it is dependent on circumstances.

 

[K-man]

An example of both ground defence being a joke and being too gi-dependent.

BJJ against multiple attackers

If that was simple knife defence, I wouldn't want to try the more complex one.

(I think you've double posted the video)

 

[MJS]

An example of both ground defence being a joke and being too gi-dependent.

BJJ against multiple attackers

Oh my....:eye-popping: See, this proves the point (no pun intended ) that I was making earlier. Why the hell would you intentionally go to the ground in this situation?

 

[Hanzou]

An example of both ground defence being a joke and being too gi-dependent.

http://www.bjjee.com/bjj-news/femal...rapist-to-sleep-with-triangle-choke-in-dubai/

 

[ballen0351]

Seems Dubai Is not a safe place for woman

http://m.thenational.ae/news/uae-news/courts/female-kickboxer-beat-up-would-be-dubai-rapist