The Use Of Weapons In Self Defense

[MJS]

Yes, theoretically this is all true and I obviously don't know what the situation was nor what was going on in the mind of the other parties involved.

But what sticks out in my mind is that Don found enough reason to NOT pull the trigger. He brandished the weapons so he must have felt the situation was getting seriously dangerous. Yet in spite of that, he found good enough reason to decide pulling the trigger was not necessary.

I think we'd all probably rather it end this way.

Of course. Likewise I'm sure that any time a cop pulls his gun, he/she is praying that they don't have to shoot, due to all the BS that follows. But, Don still 'used' the weapon, even if nothing more than a deterrant. He could have grabbed a stick. Would it have had the same impact? Who knows. I think the question we should ask Don is....would he have actually pulled the trigger? I look at it like this...if you're going to take the time to own a weapon, regardless of what it is, then I'd imagine that knowing how to use it as well as being confident enough to use it, would also play a part.

A guy could go out with his wife, buy her a gun, put her through all the safety classes, go to the range, etc., but if she doesnt have the guts to pull the trigger, when her life depends on it, she may as well have not even bothered to go thru all the classes or buy it, in the first place.

 

[Flying Crane]

Of course. Likewise I'm sure that any time a cop pulls his gun, he/she is praying that they don't have to shoot, due to all the BS that follows. But, Don still 'used' the weapon, even if nothing more than a deterrant. He could have grabbed a stick. Would it have had the same impact? Who knows. I think the question we should ask Don is....would he have actually pulled the trigger? I look at it like this...if you're going to take the time to own a weapon, regardless of what it is, then I'd imagine that knowing how to use it as well as being confident enough to use it, would also play a part.

A guy could go out with his wife, buy her a gun, put her through all the safety classes, go to the range, etc., but if she doesnt have the guts to pull the trigger, when her life depends on it, she may as well have not even bothered to go thru all the classes or buy it, in the first place.

There is another difference between a cop and a civillian. I think a cop gets training and support to help him cope with the psychological aspects of using his weapon and the aftermath. It's also his job to do so, if necessary. It's probably something he ponders every day.

A civillian doesn't necessarily have the same support and training to deal with it.

And personally, I kind of think shooting someone would be easier than ripping him open with a knife. It's much less personal, and you can maintain some level of distance.

 

[MJS]

There is another difference between a cop and a civillian. I think a cop gets training and support to help him cope with the psychological aspects of using his weapon and the aftermath. It's also his job to do so, if necessary. It's probably something he ponders every day.

A civillian doesn't necessarily have the same support and training to deal with it.

Agreed. Of course, I'm sure some would say that its their job, as a husband, a father, to protect the lives and well being of their family. Same thing, but different at the same time.

And personally, I kind of think shooting someone would be easier than ripping him open with a knife. It's much less personal, and you can maintain some level of distance.

Well, I wasn't talking about slicing the guy open like a frog in science class. LOL!

Seriously though, I dont want you or anyone else to think that I'm some blood lusting axe murderer. LOL. Yes, sitting here, thinking about sticking a knife into someone is gross, seeing that I just ate lunch a half hour ago. LOL. But, when you need to defend yourself, I do think that you need to put aside the thoughts and well being of the guy whos trying to harm you or your loved ones.

 

[Sukerkin]

I whole heartedly agree that possession of a weapon without the skill to use it is a recipe for disaster. Following on from that, producing a weapon without the will to use it is a similar recipe for disaster.

It's one reason why I think that bladed weapons are a more effective deterent than firearms, even tho the latter may be psychologically 'easier' to use in extremis.

If I challenge a burgular on the stairs of my home with a sword, even if my 'civilised' reflexes restrain me from using it, it is still effective as he will harm himself in any attempt to take it off me or get to me. Plus, there is the fact that in such a situation I am acting to protect my missus in the bedroom behind me - I don't know for sure but I am fairly convinced that my sense of acting in her defence rather than my own would lower my inhibitions about making use of violence.

That I think is a useful broadening of the question posed by this thread - viz, would or could you use a weapon in defence of someone other than yourself?

 

[Flying Crane]

Agreed. Of course, I'm sure some would say that its their job, as a husband, a father, to protect the lives and well being of their family. Same thing, but different at the same time.

yeah, but I think for most fathers, this isn't something that they think about nearly as often as a LEO officer. Even a dedicated martial artist probably doesn't think about this as much as an LEO officer, because for the vast majority of people, the possibility of face-to-face violence is just not part of their everyday existance. So they train martial arts, and there may be some amount of psychological prep involved, but it's really not the same thing.

Well, I wasn't talking about slicing the guy open like a frog in science class. LOL!

no you were not, but I was.

I deliberately chose a very extreme example because I think it's valid. A knife is considered a viable weapon today. But I think few people really think about the results of using a knife in a lethal manner. I think if you decide to use the knife, you've got to decide to be lethal. I don't think you can say to yourself, "if I just cut his arm a bit, maybe he'll go away". Once you've reached the point where you cut or stab him, it's too late to go back and you've got no choice but to go all the way. And if you do inflict a wound that is not immediately lethal, he could still bleed to death later if he doesn't get medical attention, or live the rest of his life with severed tendons and unuseable limbs or something. So no matter how you slice it (pun intended), the results are deadly serious.

We all see movies where badguys get dispatched with a knife, but it's not realistic. I think there is a tremendous amount of blood and gore, and stink, and it's not a quick kill. People take time to die, and the scream and writhe, and that doesn't usually get into the movies. We always see a stab to the chest, and the badguy falls over quietly, instantly killed, and with minimal blood. Or we see a sword cut, and the orc falls off the warg and instantly dies, and there is no blood splatter. I think killing with a bladed weapon is an extremely messy ordeal, and it's not over quickly unless you really know where to stick the blade, and you manage to do so. This is the reality I'm thinking about, and I don't think people think it thru and realize what they are in for. So they practice with a knife, but if they ever use it, I suspect they are gonna experience a level of horror that they don't expect.

maybe most people suspect this on a subconscious level, and like I mentioned earlier, look for a reason to NOT use the weapon. I dunno. I'm just thinking out loud here.

Seriously though, I dont want you or anyone else to think that I'm some blood lusting axe murderer. LOL. Yes, sitting here, thinking about sticking a knife into someone is gross, seeing that I just ate lunch a half hour ago.

I don't think you are in danger of this. People might start to wonder about me tho...

 

[Big Don]

I used to live in a bad part of town, and I worked in a bar so I got home at 330am.
It was about 4 am, I was lying in bed reading and some dumbs t came over the fence onto my patio I pulled my revolver out of the drawer and pulled the hammer back, then flipped the light on. He looked at me, said "Sorry" and went back over the fence. Blowing a hole through him seemed like a bad idea, so...
When I was 13, my parents were at some function with my little sister. I was watching TV when the girl from next door came over screaming about how her stepdad was kicking her ***, I put her in my sister's room and got my dad's side by side 16ga out of the closet. When he showed up 2 minutes later, I told him to go home and he took one look at the shotgun leaned up against the wall and left.
Hell, I was armed with an unloaded shotgun...

 

[Stuey]

Martial training for any civillian should be about bringing the quickest end to a confrontation that is possible. UK law takes the stance of 'minimum necessary force'. There is scope within this law to say that it was percieved that there was more risk than there actually was so long as you really 100% believed that this risk was there. In this way I would have to take a look at each individual situation I found myself in and what was available to me. There is also the possibility that the risk may be higher than percieved.

Couple this with the fact that one may not walk about with an offensive weapon, concealed, licensed, or otherwise without being arrested for such possession. I doubt the law would be very understanding unless you have a perfectly legitimate reason for possessing something which you use as a weapon.

Another, different take is to ask: Is it moral to use a weapon in self defense. The answer for me is a resounding YES, since I would never attack somebody and intend to harm them on purpose unless in defense.

 

[MJS]

yeah, but I think for most fathers, this isn't something that they think about nearly as often as a LEO officer. Even a dedicated martial artist probably doesn't think about this as much as an LEO officer, because for the vast majority of people, the possibility of face-to-face violence is just not part of their everyday existance. So they train martial arts, and there may be some amount of psychological prep involved, but it's really not the same thing.

I would say it would depend on the person training. A person doing it for the sake of an after-work activity, no, they probably wouldn't think about it that much. Someone who is SD oriented, works, lives, hangs out in potential problem areas, I'd say it would be different.

Its funny, because many times I find myself saying that the town that I live in, is really a nice place. Not that big, compared to some larger towns/cities here in CT., and not that much crime. Yet we've had banks and stores get robbed, we had someone get followed home, the woman gets out of her car, 2 guys force their way into her home and steal items. A town probably about 30-45min away from me, we had a home invasion, which left the wife and 2 daughters dead, the father beaten, but survived, and the house lit on fire.

So no, I personally, dont want to assume that just because I live in a quiet town, that nothing bad will happen to me. And yes, when I'm out with my wife, sister or any other family member, the well being of all of us is on my mind. If animals have that natural instinct to protect their young, why wouldn't a human?

no you were not, but I was.

I deliberately chose a very extreme example because I think it's valid. A knife is considered a viable weapon today. But I think few people really think about the results of using a knife in a lethal manner. I think if you decide to use the knife, you've got to decide to be lethal. I don't think you can say to yourself, "if I just cut his arm a bit, maybe he'll go away". Once you've reached the point where you cut or stab him, it's too late to go back and you've got no choice but to go all the way. And if you do inflict a wound that is not immediately lethal, he could still bleed to death later if he doesn't get medical attention, or live the rest of his life with severed tendons and unuseable limbs or something. So no matter how you slice it (pun intended), the results are deadly serious.

This is why I enjoy the study of the FMAs. Get to learn all the nasty little things that can be done with a blade. . Seriously though...my thinking is this, and it may not be in line with what others think, but thats cool too. I'll respect the opinions of others. I'm not a trouble maker. I pretty much mind my own business. I stay away from problem areas and exercise common sense and awareness when I'm out. So, when someone tries to attack me, or break into my house, I'm not going to think that if I just comply or roll over, everything'll be ok. I just linked an article yesterday in the Kenpo section, in that thread, "enough is enough" about a clerk that compled and got shot in the head anyways. Ended up dead. So, when someone tries to inflict harm on me or a loved one, I lose all sympathy for that person. I'm minding my own business, and someone tries to rob me, attack my wife, break into my home...no, that person gets what they deserve. I'll deal with the aftermath after, but at that moment, my safety and that of anyone with me is #1.

We all see movies where badguys get dispatched with a knife, but it's not realistic. I think there is a tremendous amount of blood and gore, and stink, and it's not a quick kill. People take time to die, and the scream and writhe, and that doesn't usually get into the movies. We always see a stab to the chest, and the badguy falls over quietly, instantly killed, and with minimal blood. Or we see a sword cut, and the orc falls off the warg and instantly dies, and there is no blood splatter. I think killing with a bladed weapon is an extremely messy ordeal, and it's not over quickly unless you really know where to stick the blade, and you manage to do so. This is the reality I'm thinking about, and I don't think people think it thru and realize what they are in for. So they practice with a knife, but if they ever use it, I suspect they are gonna experience a level of horror that they don't expect.

Agree, and I've never stabbed anyone either. But, if some nut was trying to kill me and the only thing I could grab was a knife, then so be it. I'll probably puke and pass out later on, but hopefully I'll be alive.

maybe most people suspect this on a subconscious level, and like I mentioned earlier, look for a reason to NOT use the weapon. I dunno. I'm just thinking out loud here.

Like I said, situation depending. If someone is unarmed, I'd think we'd probably have some questions to answer if we picked up a weapon. But if the other person is armed, they just upped the ante, so I'm going to grab one too. I think its safe to say, judging by some past posts I've read on here, from those who own guns, that they'd do the same thing, and not think twice about using it.

I don't think you are in danger of this. People might start to wonder about me tho...

LOL!

 

[MJS]

I used to live in a bad part of town, and I worked in a bar so I got home at 330am.
It was about 4 am, I was lying in bed reading and some dumbs t came over the fence onto my patio I pulled my revolver out of the drawer and pulled the hammer back, then flipped the light on. He looked at me, said "Sorry" and went back over the fence. Blowing a hole through him seemed like a bad idea, so...
When I was 13, my parents were at some function with my little sister. I was watching TV when the girl from next door came over screaming about how her stepdad was kicking her ***, I put her in my sister's room and got my dad's side by side 16ga out of the closet. When he showed up 2 minutes later, I told him to go home and he took one look at the shotgun leaned up against the wall and left.
Hell, I was armed with an unloaded shotgun...

Glad to hear things worked out in both cases. IMO, you did the right thing and the mere sight of the weapon served its purpose.

 

[sgtmac_46]

In another thread, the use of weapons came up. A member made the comment that the use of weapons today, is mainly for sport purposes and using one today, to defend yourself, you would most likely find yourself in jail.

Now, I don't agree with that 100% and I chalk that comment up to the simple fact that a) this is coming from a person who trains a non-weapon based art and b) someone who is not all that familiar with the many uses of simple weapons. For clarification, when I say non weapon based art, I'm talking about an art that does not focus all or the majority of training on the use of weapons. Many arts have weapons forms, weapons disarms, but that is not their sole focus. An art like Arnis, Kali, or similar type arts, focus a great deal on weapons.

So, this brings up my question: If you were in a self defense situation, would you use a weapon? Of course, depending on the situation, the weapon of choice should vary. I mean, I don't think drawing a gun is suited for every SD scenario. Of course, some may think otherwise, and thats their choice.

I get the impression that some people may hear "Weapon" and assume it means to attack the other person just with that weapon. Kinda like when people hear grappling, they assume it means rolling on the ground. A pen or kubaton are 2 small weapons, yet they can inflict alot of pain, if used properly. Both, for the most part, are perfectly legal to carry. A cane is another. A cane, much like a pen, can be carried anywhere. In a bar, restaurant, a plane, a boat, a train, you name it. Yet we see many effective moves with short sticks, and they dont always involve beating someone with it, although that is an option.

A knife....well, that may be frowned upon, depending on the situation, however, if in a life and death situation, and I had a blade available to me, yes, I would consider using it. Just like I wouldn't think twice about any other weapons, such as an ashtray, bottle or bat. Again, situation depending of course.

It's a fool who (intentionally) brings barehands only to a knife fight, gun fight or artillery duel. Mankind invented TOOLS for a reason. It's like thinking it's smarter to go to a carpentry job and try to drive nails with you thumbs.......sure, some people have trained their body to do it, but it's still better to use a hammer.

As you say.......everything is situational.......there's a time to bring barehands to a fight.....a time to bring a knife or a gun........and a time to bring a thermo-nuclear device. The key is knowing what time it is.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It's a fool who (intentionally) brings barehands only to a knife fight, gun fight or artillery duel. Mankind invented TOOLS for a reason. It's like thinking it's smarter to go to a carpentry job and try to drive nails with you thumbs.......sure, some people have trained their body to do it, but it's still better to use a hammer.

As you say.......everything is situational.......there's a time to bring barehands to a fight.....a time to bring a knife or a gun........and a time to bring a thermo-nuclear device. The key is knowing what time it is.

This is really well put! Tools are there for a reason and if you do not plan on using them then expect the bad guy too as they most certainly will!

 

[Rich Parsons]

In another thread, the use of weapons came up. A member made the comment that the use of weapons today, is mainly for sport purposes and using one today, to defend yourself, you would most likely find yourself in jail.

Now, I don't agree with that 100% and I chalk that comment up to the simple fact that a) this is coming from a person who trains a non-weapon based art and b) someone who is not all that familiar with the many uses of simple weapons. For clarification, when I say non weapon based art, I'm talking about an art that does not focus all or the majority of training on the use of weapons. Many arts have weapons forms, weapons disarms, but that is not their sole focus. An art like Arnis, Kali, or similar type arts, focus a great deal on weapons.

So, this brings up my question: If you were in a self defense situation, would you use a weapon? Of course, depending on the situation, the weapon of choice should vary. I mean, I don't think drawing a gun is suited for every SD scenario. Of course, some may think otherwise, and thats their choice.

I get the impression that some people may hear "Weapon" and assume it means to attack the other person just with that weapon. Kinda like when people hear grappling, they assume it means rolling on the ground. A pen or kubaton are 2 small weapons, yet they can inflict alot of pain, if used properly. Both, for the most part, are perfectly legal to carry. A cane is another. A cane, much like a pen, can be carried anywhere. In a bar, restaurant, a plane, a boat, a train, you name it. Yet we see many effective moves with short sticks, and they dont always involve beating someone with it, although that is an option.

A knife....well, that may be frowned upon, depending on the situation, however, if in a life and death situation, and I had a blade available to me, yes, I would consider using it. Just like I wouldn't think twice about any other weapons, such as an ashtray, bottle or bat. Again, situation depending of course.

If I thought I needed a weapon I would use one.

What I have used myself:
Pens
Knives
Sticks / Canes
Tuna Fish Can
Rock
Bottle
etcetera

Things I have used against me:
Steel toed boots
brass knuckles
Nuchuka
golf club
tire iron
baseball bat
knives
guns
cars
trucks
etcetera


Improvised weapons are good sources even for distraction.