Are Martial Sports better for self defense than Martial Arts?

[Tony Dismukes]

Maybe a little OT, but I simply don't see how you develop martial skills without hard sparring.

Some people have a lifestyle and/or profession which regularly provides them with real world violent encounters. I suspect that for many of those people the real world experience can be at least as effective as sparring for developing martial skill.

For the rest of us, I agree that sparring is necessary. I actually like a blend of light, moderate, and hard sparring as each brings something a little different to the table.

 

[FriedRice]

Some people have a lifestyle and/or profession which regularly provides them with real world violent encounters. I suspect that for many of those people the real world experience can be at least as effective as sparring for developing martial skill.
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Maybe a Bouncer or something, but that's still like a small percentage of the entire population...and most Bouncers tend to train Martial Arts anyway. My first time bouncing, it was nerve racking, but I got used to it real quick as I'm pretty used to violence....whether it's in the form of street fights or at the gym. But bouncing, in my experience, was mostly about helping drunk ****ers who peed all over themselves, up and out of the establishment....w/o getting pee on yourself.

 

[dvcochran]

It might be why it was adopted in Okinawa. I don't know enough of the back story of the art to even know that answer.

There are some many similar stories I have heard regarding various styles. It is hard to tell truth from fiction. The one constant I do believe is that many countries taught fighting tactics to their military. Somewhere in that stew, some of the styles were originally used or developed. Which came first; the chicken or the egg.
A true side story. My GM is 84. He taught defensive tactics when he was in the South Korean military in the early 1960's. He came to the U.S. in 1974 and began teaching in Nashville, TN. At his 2nd demo to promote his new school he did knock down a horse with a kick. He got in big trouble and spent a little time in jail for the infraction.
What does that have to do with this thread? Only to bolster that some of the extreme stories we hear about origins have some degree of truth to them. I do believe this is the only practical application to a high kick that can be tied back to the serf/owner domination era's. It is a stretch to say it was a regularly used tactic though.

 

[drop bear]

There are some many similar stories I have heard regarding various styles. It is hard to tell truth from fiction. The one constant I do believe is that many countries taught fighting tactics to their military. Somewhere in that stew, some of the styles were originally used or developed. Which came first; the chicken or the egg.
A true side story. My GM is 84. He taught defensive tactics when he was in the South Korean military in the early 1960's. He came to the U.S. in 1974 and began teaching in Nashville, TN. At his 2nd demo to promote his new school he did knock down a horse with a kick. He got in big trouble and spent a little time in jail for the infraction.
What does that have to do with this thread? Only to bolster that some of the extreme stories we hear about origins have some degree of truth to them. I do believe this is the only practical application to a high kick that can be tied back to the serf/owner domination era's. It is a stretch to say it was a regularly used tactic though.

Yeah. Look at a Mongolian horse though. They weren't clydesdales.

 

[Buka]

The added pressure of the audience is quite significant. It's like the difference between singing in the shower and singing on America's got talent. Being in front of the public makes some people very uncomfortable. Performing in front of an audience can also be very intimidating. The audience brings out all these factors that one must deal with within their own head as well as worrying about the opponent who's intent and preparation is to put you down.

Competing in front of a crowd can be interesting. I'd rather compete in front of a hostile crowd than one rooting for me. I never want to let down a friendly crowd.

I remember the first kick boxing match I was in. It was in front of a friendly crowd. I was nervous about letting them down. One of my corner men was a fellow black belt and best friend. After the first round, sitting on the stool in the corner he said to me, "Can you believe they're paying you five hundred bucks for this? You're buying dinner later, chump". And all my nervousness went away.

Years later one of my black belts had a PKA match. We were in his opponents home town. A bunch of us were sitting in the stands before the fights as the crowd was filling the stands. He comes out to inspect the ring. He's walking around and looks up to us and yells, "Hey! Do you want me to drop him here [he points to a spot on the apron] or here [points to a another spot.] Boy, did people start to boo him. And I'm thinking, "What the hell is he doing, that's not like him".

But he yells it again until one of us answers, we picked the first one. Then the booing really started.

Second round he dropped the guy with a right hand, left hook combo. EXACTLY in the spot we picked. That crowd went so silent you'ld think somebody pressed the big Mute Button of life.

Later he told me that he was informed that his opponent did not do well with really confident people, that's why he did it. AND that the spot the guy landed on - was pure luck.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I honestly think sport allows you to better handle the adrenaline dump and increases your overall reaction time.

Actual combat focused fighting should cover that as well as its integral at least at this point.


Its more conditioning on what you do, if you get used to doing one thing you might not deviate from doing it much. if you are used to fighting ina ring you dont develop the skills to look at your surroundings for objects to use and avoid that sort of thing.


But sparring should be practiced ina more combative focus, it is illogical and i would not call it a combat based style if you ddint do a lot of actual practice on resisting opponents in different scenarios etc etc. Afterall, you learn your mistakes in a controlled enviroment so you dont have as much at risk as you might have if you did them in a actual fight.

For all intents and purposes i view sport as a means to encourage fitness and practicing martial skill and that sort of thing. I just think they have drifted away from actual combative instruction too much. I see its use and point, just some styles need to be reeled into a more realistic rule set or contain a lot of outside of sport practice and training etc.


Excuse words again. I think i saw a citation to the use of sport to encourage personal and home practice of skills and to encourage fitness to help people become better at fighting, that's probably where a lot of sports separated from combative instruction they didnt see a point in the combat part and cut it over the years. Both should be put together in my viewpoint, but again i am bias to actual fighting to incapacitate, maim and kill that sort of thing.

 

[drop bear]

Its more conditioning on what you do, if you get used to doing one thing you might not deviate from doing it much. if you are used to fighting ina ring you dont develop the skills to look at your surroundings for objects to use and avoid that sort of thing.

What do you base this on?

And by the way there is allways a Charlie Zelenof out there. So every sparring session you should be prepared for it to become a fight.

 

[dvcochran]

What do you base this on?

Nothing really, it just hit me as funny.

 

[drop bear]

Nothing really, it just hit me as funny.

Sparring is always someone potentially trying to hurt you. Accidentally or intentionally.

 

[dvcochran]

Sparring is always someone potentially trying to hurt you. Accidentally or intentionally.

Oops, I did not realized I posted on the wrong thread.
I agree.

 

[FriedRice]

Its more conditioning on what you do, if you get used to doing one thing you might not deviate from doing it much. if you are used to fighting ina ring you dont develop the skills to look at your surroundings for objects to use and avoid that sort of thing.

Have you ever knocked someone out? I stopped counting after I got into the 20's or so. It's really a great sense of accomplishment, seeing another dude drop and up to going unconscious. Or how about just beat someone down until they cower into a ball? I've had this done to me, and never once did I think about upping the level of violence by biting or nut snatching b/c then, the beatdown may not stop after bell rings. I don't see how training to get really good at doing this, not usually result in ending most types of street conflicts in most civilized, Western society that most of us live in.

Now training to look around for objects? C'mon man, do you really need to pay some dude in a camouflage getup, wearing combat boots on the mat, to teach you how to pick up a chair or lamp to swing at another dude? Really, are you going to go to an actual bar to train? Or is it still in the gym with the camouflaged dude bringing in some chairs & the lamp from the reception area for props? Then you basically Larp around with it using pretend strikes. I'd rather spend my $$$ on range time and get good at shooting the 9mm that I carry + the big*** knife with a 5.5" blade, rather than worry about looking for things to hit people with.

 

[drop bear]

There are some many similar stories I have heard regarding various styles. It is hard to tell truth from fiction. The one constant I do believe is that many countries taught fighting tactics to their military. Somewhere in that stew, some of the styles were originally used or developed. Which came first; the chicken or the egg.
A true side story. My GM is 84. He taught defensive tactics when he was in the South Korean military in the early 1960's. He came to the U.S. in 1974 and began teaching in Nashville, TN. At his 2nd demo to promote his new school he did knock down a horse with a kick. He got in big trouble and spent a little time in jail for the infraction.
What does that have to do with this thread? Only to bolster that some of the extreme stories we hear about origins have some degree of truth to them. I do believe this is the only practical application to a high kick that can be tied back to the serf/owner domination era's. It is a stretch to say it was a regularly used tactic though.

You can punt a guy in the head in full armor and drop them.

 

[dvcochran]

You can punt a guy in the head in full armor and drop them.

That video is legit. Looks like the armor didn't help much.

 

[FriedRice]

You can punt a guy in the head in full armor and drop them.

Rewatching that, does it seem to you that he just gave up after getting cracked (so no necessarily KO'ed), because he just didn't want any more of, probably the same that's bound to come......like he's more of a Larper than a real fighter? Although I have no idea how it feels getting hit by blunt swords while you have full armor on...but it doesn't seem to hurt....while the kick certainly did.

 

[dvcochran]

Rewatching that, does it seem to you that he just gave up after getting cracked (so no necessarily KO'ed), because he just didn't want any more of, probably the same that's bound to come......like he's more of a Larper than a real fighter? Although I have no idea how it feels getting hit by blunt swords while you have full armor on...but it doesn't seem to hurt....while the kick certainly did.

The leg dropped him. The sword was the follow up. I wondered if he could even see the leg coming with that armor covering his face.

 

[FriedRice]

The leg dropped him. The sword was the follow up. I wondered if he could even see the leg coming with that armor covering his face.

No, my point was, the head kick didn't really drop him...but he's just a Larper who couldn't take/not used to that kind of full powered kick....so he went down and stayed down as a way out/quit.

 

[dvcochran]

No, my point was, the head kick didn't really drop him...but he's just a Larper who couldn't take/not used to that kind of full powered kick....so he went down and stayed down as a way out/quit.

I went back and watched the video. I would say the kick dropped him. He even cringed and leaned forward, into the kick. A likely oh shxx moment.

 

[drop bear]

Rewatching that, does it seem to you that he just gave up after getting cracked (so no necessarily KO'ed), because he just didn't want any more of, probably the same that's bound to come......like he's more of a Larper than a real fighter? Although I have no idea how it feels getting hit by blunt swords while you have full armor on...but it doesn't seem to hurt....while the kick certainly did.

We don't know what the helmet hit. Some piece of metal could have tagged a bit of head and busted something?

 

[drop bear]

I went back and watched the video. I would say the kick dropped him. He even cringed and leaned forward, into the kick. A likely oh shxx moment.

That is what he means. He didn't stiffen up like a K O.

 

[CB Jones]

We have no idea how much the guy was concussed or how much he was hurt.

Any opinion on that would be just silly assumption.