Sport And TMA....Again

[Aiki Lee]

And I spend half my class helping gravity do its job by learning how to take people off their feet. Judoka, Football players, wrestlers, etc. have all been taken down. As a Judoka, you ought to know that there's numerous ways to throw someone down, but no one has developed a perfect method of not getting taken down.

Because of that, its better to know what to do on the ground, instead of training to avoid getting taken to the ground. It's also better to work with natural forces than against them.

Ok, there are numerous ways to take someone down, but there are numerous ways to prevent being taken down as well. No there is no perfect one size fits all reversal for every takedown, but then there is no one size fits all perfect for every situation take down either. I will disagree that it is better to know what to do on the ground than to avoid being taken down. I think it is the opposite. Both are important, but for self defense it is more important to be able to stay on your feet to look for exits or other threats closing in on you.

 

[Hanzou]

What makes you think they are not?

Personal experience. Some of the stuff taught in MA schools for self defense on the ground is a joke. Also doing it once or twice a year in a seminar isn't very helpful either. It needs to be drilled and practiced, and tested consistently. Especially for women, who are more likely to not only be attacked, but be forced to be on the ground by a stronger attacker.

 

[TFP]

Er... and? Are you trying to imply that the only way anyone can win via submission is by using BJJ? Seriously? Not familiar with Judo, Kansetsu waza, Osai Komi, CaCC Wrestling, Greco-Roman, Freestyle, or any of a large number of other forms? You do realise, of course, that although there is no traditional ground fighting what are called the Ninjutsu systems, they are Japanese arts, which makes them grappling-oriented almost by definition (note here: grappling does not, nor has it ever, refer to ground fighting. That is a gross mis-application of the term by modern ground fighters)? Japanese arts aren't striking arts... they're all about catching, holding, pinning, choking, locking, throwing... and you're thinking that someone with a Japanese art background getting people to submit shows a dominance of something he hadn't trained in? Really?

I mean, let me ask you something... is this BJJ?



.

I realize it's tough fighting two or threes battles at once, but my post wasn't about BJJ being integrated into Ninjutsu (that's the other guy who is trying to hit you in the back of the head while I'm trying to take you to the ground!). That post of mine was in regards to you not mentioning Scott when you mentioned Ninjitsu stepping up early on in NHB, and then also in regards to your somewhat anti grappling stance (I know your not anti) in stating the only ground fighting you teach is to get back up. So I was just showing that yes two (somewhat) Ninjitsu guys fought early testing that art and mostly won via ground fighting.

And, yes, Scott was a black belt under Mike... who is Bob's brother. Your point? Oh, and I'm really not the person to inform about the history of RBWI or anything related, for the record.

yeah I'm picking up on that, was just curious to me that you left him out and added Jennum in when making your point.

 

[Hanzou]

Ok, there are numerous ways to take someone down, but there are numerous ways to prevent being taken down as well. No there is no perfect one size fits all reversal for every takedown, but then there is no one size fits all perfect for every situation take down either. I will disagree that it is better to know what to do on the ground than to avoid being taken down. I think it is the opposite. Both are important, but for self defense it is more important to be able to stay on your feet to look for exits or other threats closing in on you.

I find that argument ironic coming from a martial artist. If we could simply train ourselves to avoid a potentially dangerous situation, then why train how to fight? We train to fight "in case something happens" and our avoidance tactics fail. I've avoided plenty of fights using verbal Jiujitsu, but its good to know that I have Brazilian Jiujitsu in case that fails. The same can be said for if someone wants to take me down. Yes I have tools to keep myself on my feet, but I also have tools in case I end up off my feet.

Considering that you have Judokas, Football players, Wrestlers, and MMA fighters who all train hard to not get taken down, get taken down rather consistently shows that its far easier to get taken down than many people realize. These people are taken down by double leg takedowns, tackles, trips, and general wrestling locks and holds. These are simple moves that the general population is fully capable of learning without formal training.

 

[TFP]

Chris parker. I didn't know that there ground work was judo. I didn't read much into there comments section. I tend to call all ground fighting techniques BJJ by default. I guess I should be more careful with my terminology.

God please don't do this! Ha, as a guy with a Catch Wrestling background this is a pet pieve, lol! CACC guys were beating up GJJ's great uncles (Judo) well before GJJ was even a thought. Nit to mention GJJ's grandpa used to train and fight CATCH.

 

[Aiki Lee]

If they aren't teaching you ground fighting, they aren't teaching you how to get off the ground in the fastest way possible.

I think proper ukemi will help you get off the ground faster in most cases.

The point is you can always get someone to the ground. Every movement someone does potentially takes them off balance, which is why people who train to never get taken down, still get taken down.

If you train diligently and consistently, then yes at some point you make a mistake and get taken down, just like some ground fighters eat a knee or get their takedown reversed. I'm sure thre are people on the forums here who have been in fights and never went to the ground. I'm not one of them, but I don't think that being in a ground fight s as inevitable and you seem to think it is.

And if you're unarmed? Backseat of the car is usually a rape situation. As is a bedroom, living room, etc.

Or they could be robberies. I can see someone being attacked in their bed and having it resemble a ground fight with someone on top of the other, but how does one end up on his or her back in the car? All my interior vehicle defenses result around me being in the driver's seat.

As I've often said, the ground is the place where the worse things take place. If the fight remains standing, you're generally okay.

Being on the ground with someone on top of you can be scary and terrible things can happen to you there, no one is denying that. But being stabbed on the ground is no better or worse than being stabbed while standing up, or shot, or beat with a heavy object. Being on the ground gives you less room to maneuver, so in some ways it can be a more difficult situation to defend yourself from. Fighting from your feet is no less dangerous however because even though you have more space to move in so would your attacker. I think your statement over generalizes.

You can always disengage and walk/run away if your standing.

Really? Are you sure you can ALWAYS disengage without there being considerable harm done to one person or the other?

If someone wants to really hurt you, they will try to take YOU to the ground and control you. The ground is where people's heads are caved in, people are choked to death, people are stomped, women are raped, etc. Which is why its a good thing to know what to do if/when that happens. That's also the point I was making to Kframe. Standing up is no big deal. The ground is where you really want to know how to fight.

If someone really wants to hurt you they will use a weapon, and then it doesn't usually matter if you are standing or no. I also make the distinction between fighting "on the ground" and fighting "from the ground". Fighting on the ground is when the defender and at least one attacker are on the ground with one person being pinned to the floor in some way/ Fighting from the ground is where only one person is on the ground and the other is standing. The dynamics are different in these situations as you still have more freedom of movement when fighting from the ground than when fighting on the ground with someone working to restrict your movement. And again, I don't think that this automatically makes ground fighting more dangerous, as I think it depends on what was happening when on your feet.

 

[TFP]

Figured id repost this here, as it will give some details of my personal experiances that have made it really hard for me to commit to stand up TMA arts.

You want to know why im worried. Ill tell you.. When I was younger I was in 2 fights. I lost them both thanks to no ground training..
My fear of being on the ground touches every art I have tried. I see a lot of good in this art, I just have hard time with my phobia of being dominated on the ground. I have a hard time wrapping my head around a art that doesn't do any ground work at all.

Honestly do you know what its like to be in a fight get taken down and forced to eat dirt? Or choked with a belt? I do, DO YOU? Hence my desire that this art work and has a proven track record.
This previous experience seeps into every single art I have tried. I love stand up arts, and prefer them to ground. But I also know what happens, if you don't have mastery there. It creates a doubt in my mind as to what im doing.
Ill train this art, either now or later. I think it is a good Stand up art.. I just need to master ground fighting first. I need to make my phobia my strength. If im going to commit to a stand up art, I have to master ground grappling.. I have to conquer my phobia.
I don't know if anyone here truly understands where im coming from.

I suggest you learn to wrestle. I know that's not easy for a grown up, but defending a takedown and getting back up from a takedown is key. Wrestling or Judo tbh!

 

[Hanzou]

I suggest you learn to wrestle. I know that's not easy for a grown up, but defending a takedown and getting back up from a takedown is key. Wrestling or Judo tbh!

Honestly Gjj would be better than Judo if your goal is to wrestle. Judo is too gi-dependent. Most Bjj/Gjj schools cross train with wrestling constantly. There's also no gi, which is mechanically very similar to wrestling.

 

[ballen0351]

The point is you can always get someone to the ground. Every movement someone does potentially takes them off balance, which is why people who train to never get taken down, still get taken down.

you keep thinking that. You can't ALWAYS get someone down. Well maybe your just that good but most people can't ALWAYS do anything there is no such thing as ALWAYS.

And if you're unarmed?

That never happens I'm always armed or very close to a gun no matter where I am. However if I were unarmed I've got a lifetime of striking arts to fall back on.

Backseat of the car is usually a rape situation. As is a bedroom, living room, etc.

Ive never been raped and quite frankly i dont think i have to worry about that im not very pretty. But again im armed so of they want to rape me well they will catch a bullet

As I've often said, the ground is the place where the worse things take place. If the fight remains standing, you're generally okay. You can always disengage and walk/run away if your standing.

Running and disengaging should Always been your goal. Standing or laying and fighting it out is just stupid.

If someone wants to really hurt you, they will try to take YOU to the ground and control you. The ground is where people's heads are caved in, people are choked to death, people are stomped, women are raped, etc. Which is why its a good thing to know what to do if/when that happens. That's also the point I was making to Kframe. Standing up is no big deal. The ground is where you really want to know how to fight.

Ok someone watched too much tv of you believe that. Again what do I know. I only respond to rapes and murders and assaults and know how they happen. But again you keep thinking stand up is no big deal.

 

[TFP]

Who're you addressing this to? Me? If so, allow me to clarify a few things:

1) I'm far from anti BJJ. I enjoy it, I've dabbled in it, I've got some friends to actively train it. If someone is looking for a good ground art, that is the first thing that I steer them to.

2) I'm sure in certain situations, a sport fighter is pretty capable of defending him/herself.

3) The only reason I mentioned time, is because of certain comments that were being made, which implied that the Gracies, specifically Royce, could dispatch an opponent in record time. While I don't dispute that this has happened, the fact is that a) the vast majority of his fights have gone well past the minute mark and b) that was one of the reasons why the Gracie clan was disappointed with the turn the UFC took, once they added time limits/rounds.

Wasn't toward you at all, but thanks for replying! My post was also in response to someone saying Royce beat everyone in under a minute to counter my claim that GJJ was a unique in the fact that it was a martial art that focused on attrition and patience.

 

[Hanzou]

I think proper ukemi will help you get off the ground faster in most cases.

Good thing Bjj teaches ukemi as well.

Or they could be robberies. I can see someone being attacked in their bed and having it resemble a ground fight with someone on top of the other, but how does one end up on his or her back in the car? All my interior vehicle defenses result around me being in the driver's seat.

You never heard of date rape?

Being on the ground with someone on top of you can be scary and terrible things can happen to you there, no one is denying that. But being stabbed on the ground is no better or worse than being stabbed while standing up, or shot, or beat with a heavy object. Being on the ground gives you less room to maneuver, so in some ways it can be a more difficult situation to defend yourself from. Fighting from your feet is no less dangerous however because even though you have more space to move in so would your attacker. I think your statement over generalizes.

I am generalizing, but if you're laying on the ground fighting someone, that tends to be a more serious altercation than both of you standing up exchanging blows.

Really? Are you sure you can ALWAYS disengage without there being considerable harm done to one person or the other?

How else would you be able to disengage and run away from a situation unless you're standing? Butt scoot?

If someone really wants to hurt you they will use a weapon, and then it doesn't usually matter if you are standing or no.

Again I disagree. Plenty of people have been seriously hurt or even killed by the ground and pound, choked, or getting their head smacked into the concrete. That was done without weapons. If you're both standing and he has a knife on you and wants your wallet, you can throw him your wallet and run away. If he's on top of you with a knife on you, he wants to kill you. However, there's way too many variables to make this into a worthwhile discussion. My point was that things are more serious on the ground, so its a good idea to know how to fight on or from the ground.

 

[TFP]

Like I said someplace you don't ever want to be in the ground. Crowded bars and in a busy street being two of them. Go out in the street in front of one of out local taxi drivers your getting run over. These fools hit people everyweekend. But again i live in the real world with real criminals and real fights you fighy in a nice padded cage where its one on one with a ref. to save you. So what do i know.

Slow down tough guy! I've used BJJ in street fights many times and it has done nothing but help me. I'm talking out front of bars, 4 on 6, in the street, etc.

Please don't act like the street is so much tougher than the cage, it isn't! I have fought in both!

Damn it! Now I sound like the tough guy.........

 

[Spinedoc]

The point is you can always get someone to the ground. Every movement someone does potentially takes them off balance, which is why people who train to never get taken down, still get taken down.

And yet, some of us train to stay upright and put our opponents off balance. YMMV. Once you have mastered your own balance, it's actually not hard to stay on your feet in a defensive posture. Or, you use Ukemi to regain your balance if needed....Again, your opinion may be different.

 

[ballen0351]

Slow down tough guy! I've used BJJ in street fights many times and it has done nothing but help me. I'm talking out front of bars, 4 on 6, in the street, etc.

Please don't act like the street is so much tougher than the cage, it isn't! I have fought in both!

Damn it! Now I sound like the tough guy.........

by I'ts very definition the steet is tougher then the cage. I've never seen anyone get stabbed in the "cage". I've never seen anyone's friend soccer kick you in the head in a cage. I've never seen a ref. On the street unless you consider me a ref. I've never seen bouncers separate people and slam them on their faces in a cage. But Sure ok cage is just as dangerous as the street after you remove the refs, ring side medical staff, and the understanding that if you give up the other guy will stop

 

[Hanzou]

you keep thinking that. You can't ALWAYS get someone down. Well maybe your just that good but most people can't ALWAYS do anything there is no such thing as ALWAYS.

Doesn't that make Judo useless, since its entirely based on throwing someone to the ground, or taking them down?

That never happens I'm always armed or very close to a gun no matter where I am. However if I were unarmed I've got a lifetime of striking arts to fall back on.

Not all of us are cops.

Ive never been raped and quite frankly i dont think i have to worry about that im not very pretty. But again im armed so of they want to rape me well they will catch a bullet

Not all of us are less than pretty male cops either. However I also happen to be a less than pretty male, so I feel your pain.

Running and disengaging should Always been your goal. Standing or laying and fighting it out is just stupid.

I can agree with that.

 

[TFP]

Honestly Gjj would be better than Judo if your goal is to wrestle. Judo is too gi-dependent. Most Bjj/Gjj schools cross train with wrestling constantly. There's also no gi, which is mechanically very similar to wrestling.

It's potato/pototo tbh. If you don't want to go to the ground wrestling is best, if you don't want to go to the ground but want to be able to throw your opponent there then Judo IMO. If you want to know how to fight on the ground then BJJ.

 

[ballen0351]

Doesn't that make Judo useless, since its entirely based on throwing someone to the ground, or taking them down?

Useless as what? A sport? in self defense? Real Judo like the Judo I learn also has striking, and standing joint locks. It also teaches me NOT to get taken down by the most common ways as you already said single and double legs, tackles, and scoop and slams. So is sport Judo great for self defense no there are better methods, is complete old school judo useless? No at all.

Not all of us are cops.

Dont need to be a cop to be armed. If your state wont allow you the god given right to defend yourself get the law changed or move.

Not all of us are less than pretty male cops either. However I also happen to be a less than pretty male, so I feel your pain.

We teach rape prevention classes and while we do teach some ground skills we focus on standing striking soft targets and running as your 1st line of defense.

Like I said Im not downplaying the importance of knowing ground skills. You seem to not believe you need any standing skills and thats just bad. Your plan A may be go down and control or sub. But you better have a plan B when you cant get him to the ground and your forced to strike

 

[TFP]

by I'ts very definition the steet is tougher then the cage. I've never seen anyone get stabbed in the "cage". I've never seen anyone's friend soccer kick you in the head in a cage. I've never seen a ref. On the street unless you consider me a ref. I've never seen bouncers separate people and slam them on their faces in a cage. But Sure ok cage is just as dangerous as the street after you remove the refs, ring side medical staff, and the understanding that if you give up the other guy will stop

All valid points!

Now take into consideration the percentage of actually "trained" fighters you are going to meet up with in the street vs. How trained your opponent is across from you in that cage.

Now take into consideration the willingness to continue the fight after you show the guy/guys in the street you know how to defend yourself and hurt them compared to your opponents in a cages willingness to continue to fight.

Yes the street is very unpredictable and dangerous, etc. But not for the most part. I've been in countless street fights, 1/1, group fights, outnumbered, bars, weapons, jumped, etc. And honestly it isn't as bad as you make out to be. Most people in the street like to act tough as long as things are going there way, and honestly most are to scared to actually jump in.

Either way, my point being don't discredit the dangers or seriousness of the cage.

 

[TFP]

And yet, some of us train to stay upright and put our opponents off balance. YMMV. Once you have mastered your own balance, it's actually not hard to stay on your feet in a defensive posture. Or, you use Ukemi to regain your balance if needed....Again, your opinion may be different.

Did you watch any of the early NHB/Vale Tudo fights? Early UFC or Gracie in action tapes? It's actually not that easy to stay standing in a fight by just "mastering your balance". Not at all.

 

[ballen0351]

All valid points!

Now take into consideration the percentage of actually "trained" fighters you are going to meet up with in the street vs. How trained your opponent is across from you in that cage.

Now take into consideration the willingness to continue the fight after you show the guy/guys in the street you know how to defend yourself and hurt them compared to your opponents in a cages willingness to continue to fight.

Yes the street is very unpredictable and dangerous, etc. But not for the most part. I've been in countless street fights, 1/1, group fights, outnumbered, bars, weapons, jumped, etc. And honestly it isn't as bad as you make out to be. Most people in the street like to act tough as long as things are going there way, and honestly most are to scared to actually jump in.

Either way, my point being don't discredit the dangers or seriousness of the cage.

Fighting in the cage is a game simple as that. If it makes you feel like a tough guy then so be it your a tough guy but its a game none the less.