Sport And TMA....Again

[ballen0351]

Considering that most people know how to fight naturally in stand up position, but don't naturally know how to fight on the ground, I think you've made a wise decision.

Most people know how to fling their fist in the air and believe they are fighting

 

[ballen0351]

It does when you have a near paralyzing fear of being dominated on the ground...

That's mental not style issue. Bjj works for you that great its just not perfect for everyone

 

[Kframe]

just hope you don't get dominated like I did. Youll devlop that fear as well.

 

[ballen0351]

just hope you don't get dominated like I did. Youll devlop that fear as well.

I don't get into fights

 

[Kframe]

IM glad you don't, dosent change the fact that trouble sometimes finds you despite you not looking for it.

 

[ballen0351]

IM glad you don't, dosent change the fact that trouble sometimes finds you despite you not looking for it.

Sometimes that's why I have a gun on me at all times and I train. But in reality its rare. Its been over 15 years since my last fight and they all involved alcohol and too much testosterone when I was a Marine.

 

[Kframe]

In all honesty I forgot you were a cop.

Id say one good reason to get familiar with ground fighting is the case of Zimmerman/Martine. Basic stand up and ground grappling would have gone along way to preventing his shooting.

 

[ballen0351]

In all honesty I forgot you were a cop.

Id say one good reason to get familiar with ground fighting is the case of Zimmerman/Martine. Basic stand up and ground grappling would have gone along way to preventing his shooting.

Actually martin not attacking Zimmerman would have prevented the shooting but that's a different topic.

And again i dont need BJJ to to grapple. We have grappling in Goju.

 

[Hanzou]

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Please explain how the first codified kata of judo is the katame no kata(forms of grappling on the ground)? Please explain Kano's dislike of groundwork and preference of throwing.

Kano preferred tachi-waza (standing techniques), to ne-waza (mat work), at which he was less skillful and, thus, avoided whenever possible. Indeed, he had a tough time of it when he was forced onto the mat. To compensate for this, his assistants and students trained especially hard in ne-waza in order to beat jujitsu rivals.

http://www.judoinfo.com/kano4.htm

Kano himself had always preferred the standing throwing techniques. He knew the importance of grappling, but his personal preference was in the more elegant and philosophical standing techniques he had learned and developed from the Kito Ryu. This was shown when Kano systematized the important techniques of Judo in 1895 into the Gokyo no Waza, which contained only throwing techniques.

http://umjudo.com/JudoHistory/HistoryEight.htm

After 1900, Judo had begun emphasizing such grappling techniques. Maeda, who entered the Kodokan in 1897, was there during the greatest development of Judo as a grappling style. Indeed, in 1914, the high school championships introduced that year in Japan were primarily Judo grappling matches, ended by the chokes, armbars, or submission movements typical of Judo grappling. This "Kosen Judo" continues today as a relic of that era of Judo in university tournaments in Japan, as well as in Gracie and Brazilian Ju Jitsu. The trend was so strong in this direction that, by 1926, Kano finally changed tournament rules to restrict grappling, and once again emphasize throwing techniques.

http://umjudo.com/JudoHistory/HistoryNine.htm

 

[Hanzou]

Double post.

 

[Spinedoc]

Its been over 15 years since my last fight and they all involved alcohol and too much testosterone when I was a Marine.

Same here. I was a corpsman with the Marines. 2nd Recon battalion.....Hoo Rah. A lot of fights in the military. Never been afraid of being on the ground. I don't fear being in a fight but don't ever desire to be in any more. I don't carry a gun either, although I was rated in the military.

Nice to see a fellow leatherneck here.

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

Didn't want to further sidetrack the "Is BJJ good for SD" thread, so I figured I'd start a new one. In that thread, Steve and I were talking about sport and TMAs, and the misconceptions that some people may have, as to the effectiveness of sport fighting arts.

This is a comment that I made:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...JJ-work-in-a-real-fight?p=1610425#post1610425

I mentioned that one of the things that may make the sporting arts appear to not be effective in the eyes of some, is the lack of SD techniques that we typically see in most other arts. I'll use Kenpo for example. There're defenses for pretty much every attack out there: punches, grabs, chokes, kicks, weapons, etc. Usually the sport guys say that the notion of defending yourself against multiple, weapons, etc, is a fallacy. I commented to Steve that if in fact this is true, then technically all one really needs to work on, is pure fighting skill.

So, what are your thoughts? Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defned against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill, such as we'd see in the ring, good enough?

Mike,

I am sorry I am 41 pages late to the party in the last week.

Your question is do people need techniques or just pure fighting skill?

In my personal experience, and before any training, I would and did loose my temper and I would use pure strength and just crush or smash people and hurt them. Bringing violence to just end it.

Later also before training, I would get the adrenaline dump and it was cool shiver down my body, I would almost fall into a clear space / time continuum. It was great. (Adrenaline addict anyone?) I would not tunnel vision I would not flinch up and then respond. I responded usually down the center line and usually to their throat. Once again bringing the most violence the quickest.

After some training I learned more techniques and I used them. I did not break people as bad. I did not send as many to the hospital for making bad mistakes. Yet I reacted, and brought the violence still. Just more planned or understood.

Still after even more training and time, I realized that this was an adrenaline addiction and not good for me. So I hesitated. I did not bring the violence. While I got hurt in the above situations. Including getting my butt handed to me many a time. Others always remembered , saw or experienced the violence and it limited it to one or two guys. When I hesitated and brought less violence I ended up spending time in the hospital or going through windows, dislocated ribs , you get the picture. So I consciously choose to bring the violence and to end it quickly.

I was able to do joint locks. I was able to perform techniques many a people would say do not work in a real or street fight. They worked for me because I practiced them and because I understood fighting and dealing with it. Was I afraid? Usually. Which is why the violence came out.

So to answer your question, Nothing works. Everything works.

Pure will to survive works.
Pure will to destroy the enemy works.
Working to get better with skill and using the adrenaline in a constructive manner works. (* See top tier professional athletes and also special forces, where in gun fights they are trained to still follow their control and their training - all under stress and elevated heart rate and adrenaline. *)


So yes, someone with fighting skill can defend themselves.
Someone with training can defend themselves as well.

If the person does not have the drive to hurt other willing, and they can be trained and pressure tested so they respond under stress and use their training then this is how you teach people self defense.
Now as to the sport question of sport type defending themselves. I have seen boxers break their hands as they were used to gloves. I have seen wrestlers take a guy down only to be beaten to a pulp by his friends. I have seen the reverse as well. Where the boxer picks a guy a part and the wrestler takes the guy down and submits him and walks away or hurts him.

So as always it depends.


**** Added ****

Weapons will change everything. I know I carry trainer folding knives at seminars. I have rolled (not a great ground person) and if I can pull it I do. It always changes everything. Sometimes they just freeze in fear. Sometimes they over concentrate on the weapon giving me an opening to attack a joint. Or I just stab them as they do not even realize it is there.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Figured id repost this here, as it will give some details of my personal experiances that have made it really hard for me to commit to stand up TMA arts.

You want to know why im worried. Ill tell you.. When I was younger I was in 2 fights. I lost them both thanks to no ground training..
My fear of being on the ground touches every art I have tried. I see a lot of good in this art, I just have hard time with my phobia of being dominated on the ground. I have a hard time wrapping my head around a art that doesn't do any ground work at all.

Honestly do you know what its like to be in a fight get taken down and forced to eat dirt? Or choked with a belt? I do, DO YOU? Hence my desire that this art work and has a proven track record.
This previous experience seeps into every single art I have tried. I love stand up arts, and prefer them to ground. But I also know what happens, if you don't have mastery there. It creates a doubt in my mind as to what im doing.
Ill train this art, either now or later. I think it is a good Stand up art.. I just need to master ground fighting first. I need to make my phobia my strength. If im going to commit to a stand up art, I have to master ground grappling.. I have to conquer my phobia.
I don't know if anyone here truly understands where im coming from.

Everyone has different reasons for learning their martial art and for the particular choice they make in selecting an art to practice. It is unfortunate that your experience that you had when you were younger has been able to affect you for so long. When I was in high school, a few months before I began my martial arts journey, there was this Karate student who gave me a backfist in the face when I was talking to a couple of girls. On another occasion he threw me to the ground, sat on me and smooshed my face into the grass and dirt and threatened to pound me, (of course it didn't help that I was still cracking jokes, telling him how heavy he was and generally being a smartass), eventually he let me go unharmed so I can see what you are getting at.

I got tired of getting picked on in school, that's why I chose the art I chose. I have been knocked down in a fight and managed to get back to my feet within 5 seconds. Back in 1992 someone tried to get on top for some ground and pound (long before the term was coined), I managied to fight my way back to my feet without getting hit. The main concern I have is not being dominated on the ground, its being hit and suffering permanent brain damage or other permanent disability, that's why I work a lot on my defence. The thing that sticks with me is way back in the 1992 fight against a kickboxer I suffered a broken leg. I made the terrible mistake of trying to fight him off without hurting him (a mistake I will NEVER make again) and I let the fight go on too long. At the end of the fight I took a step backwards, slipped off the curb and fell backwards, while I was on the ground he stomped on my leg and broke it and then kicked me in the head and ribs. Until I fell backwards he was not able to hit me even once but I hit him with every strike I threw. Even though the injury is always in the back of my mind I have never let it affect the way I train. A stand up self defence art that has no ground work is like a ground based self defence art that has no standup, it doesn't make sense to me. A pure sport based martial art is another story.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Considering that most people know how to fight naturally in stand up position, but don't naturally know how to fight on the ground, I think you've made a wise decision.

What, you never seen someone get someone on the ground and start pounding away?

 

[Chris Parker]

The reason I said that in many ways Gjj is more traditional than modern Judo is because Bjj was able to evolve freely without outside limitations (post-war ban, Olympic rules).

Also in my experience, Bjj as a whole tends to be quite a bit more progressive than Judo.

So... evolution and change/development is more traditional than keeping to an original context? Really? You're not actually making sense here... let's try again.

I didn't say that Bjj is more traditional because its more progressive. I said that in many ways its more traditional than modern Judo, and at the same time its also more progressive as a whole than modern Judo. Its more traditional because it has a more direct line to pre-war Judo and it isn't influenced by Olympic rules. At the same time, its more progressive than Judo because its more open to changes in grappling, like No-Gi for example.

No.... still not making any sense. I mean, how does BJJ have a "more direct line" to pre-war Judo than Judo does? BJJ is the result of early Judo being taken from Japan, touring a number of countries (including England, from memory), being combined with elements of other wrestling forms, being taken in a different path in Brazil, given a difference emphasis, and ultimately having a different specialization entirely... but that's a more direct line to pre-war Judo than Judo, which is simply the direct descendant (hell, it's not even a descendant... it is the same thing just with a range of alterations due to changing environments)? Seriously?

Chris parker. I didn't know that there ground work was judo. I didn't read much into there comments section. I tend to call all ground fighting techniques BJJ by default. I guess I should be more careful with my terminology.

Ha, not a problem. I find that a lot of people tend to make that assumption/connection these days... and the insistence in MMA/UFC that all grappling is ground work, and it's all "jiujitsu" plays no small part in that error.

Yeah I know...so if we are going to play this game then lets be completely correct here since Jujutsu is a generic name and you are using an specific name, Kano-ha Jujutsu, and mixing it with the generic term to make your case.....

Then the base of Judo (aka Kano-ha Jujutsu) is Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū jujutsu and the base of Brazillion Jiujitsu is Kano-ha Jujutsu which does say that generically they both have a jujutsu base but yet they still do not have the "same" base since Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū jujutsu is not the same as Kano-ha Jujutsu.

Therefore they still do not share the same base since Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū jujutsu was changed to get to Kano-ha Jujutsu and the beginning of BJJ is Kano-ha Jujutsu not Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū jujutsu.

Yep. But, of course, Judo isn't just based in Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu... Kito Ryu plays quite a part too... especially in the nage waza and kata (Koshiki no Kata as the most obvious example).

Chris, if it is ground fighting and it works, it's Bjj... Even if it's not. You should know that.

Sure... but by the same token, BJJ is just the watered down sporting version of the watered down kids version of a watered down sports version of the actual martial arts...

Figured id repost this here, as it will give some details of my personal experiances that have made it really hard for me to commit to stand up TMA arts.

You want to know why im worried. Ill tell you.. When I was younger I was in 2 fights. I lost them both thanks to no ground training..
My fear of being on the ground touches every art I have tried. I see a lot of good in this art, I just have hard time with my phobia of being dominated on the ground. I have a hard time wrapping my head around a art that doesn't do any ground work at all.

Honestly do you know what its like to be in a fight get taken down and forced to eat dirt? Or choked with a belt? I do, DO YOU? Hence my desire that this art work and has a proven track record.
This previous experience seeps into every single art I have tried. I love stand up arts, and prefer them to ground. But I also know what happens, if you don't have mastery there. It creates a doubt in my mind as to what im doing.
Ill train this art, either now or later. I think it is a good Stand up art.. I just need to master ground fighting first. I need to make my phobia my strength. If im going to commit to a stand up art, I have to master ground grappling.. I have to conquer my phobia.
I don't know if anyone here truly understands where im coming from.

Okay, so you've had some bad experiences that have involved being taken to the ground. That, believe it or not, proves nothing. I've been in probably 5 or 6 fights in my time, including a group assault, and none of them involved anything close to going to ground... so whose experience is the correct one? The answer, of course, is neither. They're both just a very small sample of what could happen. If you're concerned about the ground, then yeah, I'd recommend BJJ, absolutely. But your reasoning is far more to do with your emotional response.

It does when you have a near paralyzing fear of being dominated on the ground...

Like that.

Considering that most people know how to fight naturally in stand up position, but don't naturally know how to fight on the ground, I think you've made a wise decision.

Hmm... "most people know how to fight naturally in a stand up position"? Really? I don't think I'd agree with that... and, from memory, in the other thread, you didn't either. I seem to remember you saying that the goal of everyone in a fight is to take the other person to the ground... care to reconcile that? Oh, and no, most people don't really know how to fight in any position... standing is just the most common starting position due to our social structure... we stand in groups. Not that that means it always goes to the ground, of course...

 

[Hanzou]

What, you never seen someone get someone on the ground and start pounding away?

Of course, and that usually happens after two guys get into a clinch, and someone falls to the ground.

However, my point to Kframe was that you can pick up standup easily without much training. However, if he's going to a legit Gjj school, they'll be teaching him Judo throws, wrestling takedowns, and set ups from striking range, all while developing a strong ground game. So he shouldn't worry about being able to fight on his feet.

 

[ballen0351]

Of course, and that usually happens after two guys get into a clinch, and someone falls to the ground.

However, my point to Kframe was that you can pick up standup easily without much training. However, if he's going to a legit Gjj school, they'll be teaching him Judo throws, wrestling takedowns, and set ups from striking range, all while developing a strong ground game. So he shouldn't worry about being able to fight on his feet.

Sure until he meets a guy that trains not to go to the ground. Or is at a place where going to the ground is a bad idea.

 

[Hanzou]

No.... still not making any sense. I mean, how does BJJ have a "more direct line" to pre-war Judo than Judo does? BJJ is the result of early Judo being taken from Japan, touring a number of countries (including England, from memory), being combined with elements of other wrestling forms, being taken in a different path in Brazil, given a difference emphasis, and ultimately having a different specialization entirely... but that's a more direct line to pre-war Judo than Judo, which is simply the direct descendant (hell, it's not even a descendant... it is the same thing just with a range of alterations due to changing environments)? Seriously?

Read post #602. Judo's natural evolution was heading towards a stronger Newaza slant. Kano purposely curbed that evolution because he preferred standing throws. Olympic Judo has continued that push.

 

[Hanzou]

Sure until he meets a guy that trains not to go to the ground.

Its pretty hard to fight gravity.

Or is at a place where going to the ground is a bad idea.

And Bjj will teach him to get back up in the quickest way possible.

 

[ballen0351]

Its pretty hard to fight gravity.

I spend half my class in judo fighting gravity. Staying on my feet. So do high school wrestlers and football players to a lesser degree. So don't act like a BJJ guy can just take anyone and everyone down at will. That's just not the case and you better prepare for the guy that you cant take down

And Bjj will teach him to get back up in the quickest way possible.

Getting up quickly would mean you already went down. Again someplace you don't ever want to go down no matter how fast you can get up.