Sport And TMA....Again

[MJS]

What was this thread about again?

LOL! Hard to follow, I know.

 

[ballen0351]

LOL! Hard to follow, I know.

It flows nicely however.

 

[Hanzou]

I spend half my class in judo fighting gravity. Staying on my feet. So do high school wrestlers and football players to a lesser degree. So don't act like a BJJ guy can just take anyone and everyone down at will. That's just not the case and you better prepare for the guy that you cant take down.

And I spend half my class helping gravity do its job by learning how to take people off their feet. Judoka, Football players, wrestlers, etc. have all been taken down. As a Judoka, you ought to know that there's numerous ways to throw someone down, but no one has developed a perfect method of not getting taken down.

Because of that, its better to know what to do on the ground, instead of training to avoid getting taken to the ground. It's also better to work with natural forces than against them.

Getting up quickly would mean you already went down. Again someplace you don't ever want to go down no matter how fast you can get up.

Even more reason to know what to do if you ever end up there instead of attempting to avoid that fighting phase completely.

 

[MJS]

Royce Gracie has had one fight that was under a minute and that was 57 seconds vs Ken Shamrock.


now do you care to talk about his 15:00, 15:00, 15:49, 36:00 or 90:00 minute fights? Or how about his fathers 3 hour, 42 minute fight?


listen, just because Royce did well In a quick fashion against some fighters with little experience vs grappling or the gi does not change the philosophy of GJJ. They were not taught to pass up on a submission attempt in order to go slow, of course if your opponent makes a mistake early you capitalize on it, but you don't force it and you don't rush it. GJJ is an extremely patient martial art.


listen it's ok to go "hey GJJ is an extremely effective art that can finish an opponent fast. But I didn't realize the philosophy behind the art was one of methodical patience".

Who're you addressing this to? Me? If so, allow me to clarify a few things:

1) I'm far from anti BJJ. I enjoy it, I've dabbled in it, I've got some friends to actively train it. If someone is looking for a good ground art, that is the first thing that I steer them to.

2) I'm sure in certain situations, a sport fighter is pretty capable of defending him/herself.

3) The only reason I mentioned time, is because of certain comments that were being made, which implied that the Gracies, specifically Royce, could dispatch an opponent in record time. While I don't dispute that this has happened, the fact is that a) the vast majority of his fights have gone well past the minute mark and b) that was one of the reasons why the Gracie clan was disappointed with the turn the UFC took, once they added time limits/rounds.

 

[ballen0351]

And I spend half my class helping gravity do its job by learning how to take people off their feet. Judoka, Football plaf, wrestlers, etc. have all been taken down. Because of that, its better to know what to do on the ground, instead of training to avoid getting taken to the ground. It's also better to work with natural forces than against them.

Your right nobody can stay on their feet. Keep thinking that. I hope it works for you. I know it wont but good luck.

Even more reason to know what to do if you ever end up there instead of attempting to avoid that fighting phase completely.

Like I said someplace you don't ever want to be in the ground. Crowded bars and in a busy street being two of them. Go out in the street in front of one of out local taxi drivers your getting run over. These fools hit people everyweekend. But again i live in the real world with real criminals and real fights you fighy in a nice padded cage where its one on one with a ref. to save you. So what do i know.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Because of that, its better to know what to do on the ground, instead of training to avoid getting taken to the ground. It's also better to work with natural forces than against them.


Even more reason to know what to do if you ever end up there instead of attempting to avoid that fighting phase completely.

It is better to know both, it is more important to avoid getting taken down. It is better to avoid the worst case scenario than to purposely go to it. Take it from someone who knows, it only takes a second to get stomped on.

 

[Hanzou]

Your right nobody can stay on their feet. Keep thinking that. I hope it works for you. I know it wont but good luck.

So you're saying that Judokas have never been taken down, football players have never been tackled, and wrestlers have never been slammed to the mat?

Like I said someplace you don't ever want to be in the ground. Crowded bars and in a busy street being two of them. Go out in the street in front of one of out local taxi drivers your getting run over. These fools hit people everyweekend. But again i live in the real world with real criminals and real fights you fighy in a nice padded cage where its one on one with a ref. to save you. So what do i know.

Okay, but what if happens in your living room? Your bed room? A sidewalk? Your front lawn? In a hallway? In a classroom? The backseat of a car? In a playground? etc. There's too many variables at play to simply have a strategy of never going to the ground. In some cases you won't have that choice. In others, it may be the only way to neutralize someone long enough for you to get away.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Sure until he meets a guy that trains not to go to the ground. Or is at a place where going to the ground is a bad idea.

Or someone who can knock him out before he goes to the ground.

 

[Hanzou]

It is better to know both, it is more important to avoid getting taken down. It is better to avoid the worst case scenario than to purposely go to it. Take it from someone who knows, it only takes a second to get stomped on.

You learn both after you learn ground fighting.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Of course, and that usually happens after two guys get into a clinch, and someone falls to the ground.

However, my point to Kframe was that you can pick up standup easily without much training. However, if he's going to a legit Gjj school, they'll be teaching him Judo throws, wrestling takedowns, and set ups from striking range, all while developing a strong ground game. So he shouldn't worry about being able to fight on his feet.

You can pick up standup easily but you can not do it well easily without much training so yeah he should be concerned about it.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Its pretty hard to fight gravity.

Fighting gravity is easy, ignoring it altogether, now that's hard.

And Bjj will teach him to get back up in the quickest way possible.

A lot of arts will teach you that.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Of course, and that usually happens after two guys get into a clinch, and someone falls to the ground.

Isn.t that the way it goes in MMA and BJJ .

 

[Hanzou]

A lot of arts will teach you that.

If they aren't teaching you ground fighting, they aren't teaching you how to get off the ground in the fastest way possible.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If they aren't teaching you ground fighting, they aren't teaching you how to get off the ground in the fastest way possible.

What makes you think they are not?

 

[ballen0351]

So you're saying that Judokas have never been taken down, football players have never been tackled, and wrestlers have never been slammed to the mat?

Of course they have and at the same time no they haven't. If you put all your eggs in the take him down and sub. Him and you cant get him down. Well your screwed you better have a plan for dealing with someone that's standing up.

Okay, but what if happens in your living room?

Bullet

Your bed room?

. Bullet.

A sidewalk?

depends im going to run if i can.

Your front lawn?

. Im going inside then bullet

In a hallway?

. My hallway? Bullet.

In a classroom?

. I dont go to school.

The backseat of a car?

. How do you gobtobthe ground in a car? So I'm going to punch lots

In a playground? etc.

. With my kids your getting gun faced.

There's too many variables at play to simply have a strategy of never going to the ground.

Correct I train for the ground as well. You seem to believe you will always go down and don't have a plan for when that fails

In some cases you won't have that choice. In others, it may be the only way to neutralize someone long enough for you to get away.[/QUOTE]

 

[MJS]

Figured id repost this here, as it will give some details of my personal experiances that have made it really hard for me to commit to stand up TMA arts.

You want to know why im worried. Ill tell you.. When I was younger I was in 2 fights. I lost them both thanks to no ground training..
My fear of being on the ground touches every art I have tried. I see a lot of good in this art, I just have hard time with my phobia of being dominated on the ground. I have a hard time wrapping my head around a art that doesn't do any ground work at all.

Honestly do you know what its like to be in a fight get taken down and forced to eat dirt? Or choked with a belt? I do, DO YOU? Hence my desire that this art work and has a proven track record.
This previous experience seeps into every single art I have tried. I love stand up arts, and prefer them to ground. But I also know what happens, if you don't have mastery there. It creates a doubt in my mind as to what im doing.
Ill train this art, either now or later. I think it is a good Stand up art.. I just need to master ground fighting first. I need to make my phobia my strength. If im going to commit to a stand up art, I have to master ground grappling.. I have to conquer my phobia.
I don't know if anyone here truly understands where im coming from.

Well, you have to do what is best for you. I wanted to get some basic ground skills because it was lacking in my training. IMHO, I think that if one really wants to be as well rounded as they can, then knowledge of all ranges of fighting, is important.

 

[MJS]

Mike,

I am sorry I am 41 pages late to the party in the last week.

Your question is do people need techniques or just pure fighting skill?

In my personal experience, and before any training, I would and did loose my temper and I would use pure strength and just crush or smash people and hurt them. Bringing violence to just end it.

Later also before training, I would get the adrenaline dump and it was cool shiver down my body, I would almost fall into a clear space / time continuum. It was great. (Adrenaline addict anyone?) I would not tunnel vision I would not flinch up and then respond. I responded usually down the center line and usually to their throat. Once again bringing the most violence the quickest.

After some training I learned more techniques and I used them. I did not break people as bad. I did not send as many to the hospital for making bad mistakes. Yet I reacted, and brought the violence still. Just more planned or understood.

Still after even more training and time, I realized that this was an adrenaline addiction and not good for me. So I hesitated. I did not bring the violence. While I got hurt in the above situations. Including getting my butt handed to me many a time. Others always remembered , saw or experienced the violence and it limited it to one or two guys. When I hesitated and brought less violence I ended up spending time in the hospital or going through windows, dislocated ribs , you get the picture. So I consciously choose to bring the violence and to end it quickly.

I was able to do joint locks. I was able to perform techniques many a people would say do not work in a real or street fight. They worked for me because I practiced them and because I understood fighting and dealing with it. Was I afraid? Usually. Which is why the violence came out.

So to answer your question, Nothing works. Everything works.

Pure will to survive works.
Pure will to destroy the enemy works.
Working to get better with skill and using the adrenaline in a constructive manner works. (* See top tier professional athletes and also special forces, where in gun fights they are trained to still follow their control and their training - all under stress and elevated heart rate and adrenaline. *)


So yes, someone with fighting skill can defend themselves.
Someone with training can defend themselves as well.

If the person does not have the drive to hurt other willing, and they can be trained and pressure tested so they respond under stress and use their training then this is how you teach people self defense.
Now as to the sport question of sport type defending themselves. I have seen boxers break their hands as they were used to gloves. I have seen wrestlers take a guy down only to be beaten to a pulp by his friends. I have seen the reverse as well. Where the boxer picks a guy a part and the wrestler takes the guy down and submits him and walks away or hurts him.

So as always it depends.


**** Added ****

Weapons will change everything. I know I carry trainer folding knives at seminars. I have rolled (not a great ground person) and if I can pull it I do. It always changes everything. Sometimes they just freeze in fear. Sometimes they over concentrate on the weapon giving me an opening to attack a joint. Or I just stab them as they do not even realize it is there.

Thanks for the reply Rich. Nice to see a reply that actually has to do with the OP. I figured that both cases would probably apply, but I figured it'd be good to hear from others as well.

Thanks again!

 

[Hanzou]

Of course they have and at the same time no they haven't. If you put all your eggs in the take him down and sub. Him and you cant get him down. Well your screwed you better have a plan for dealing with someone that's standing up.

The point is you can always get someone to the ground. Every movement someone does potentially takes them off balance, which is why people who train to never get taken down, still get taken down.

Bullet . Bullet. depends im going to run if i can. . Im going inside then bullet . My hallway? Bullet. . I dont go to school. . How do you gobtobthe ground in a car? So I'm going to punch lots . With my kids your getting gun faced.

And if you're unarmed? Backseat of the car is usually a rape situation. As is a bedroom, living room, etc.

Correct I train for the ground as well. You seem to believe you will always go down and don't have a plan for when that fails

In some cases you won't have that choice. In others, it may be the only way to neutralize someone long enough for you to get away.

As I've often said, the ground is the place where the worse things take place. If the fight remains standing, you're generally okay. You can always disengage and walk/run away if your standing.

If someone wants to really hurt you, they will try to take YOU to the ground and control you. The ground is where people's heads are caved in, people are choked to death, people are stomped, women are raped, etc. Which is why its a good thing to know what to do if/when that happens. That's also the point I was making to Kframe. Standing up is no big deal. The ground is where you really want to know how to fight.

 

[MJS]

Its pretty hard to fight gravity.

Oddly enough, Chuck Liddell seemed to be pretty good at staying on his feet, and yes, before you say it, I know he has a grappling background. My point is that all of his fights, stayed upright for the most part.

And Bjj will teach him to get back up in the quickest way possible.

I agree, but if you're in a position where going to the ground is bad in the first place, why intentionally go there?

 

[MJS]

It flows nicely however.

Yes, I agree.