Sport And TMA....Again

[K-man]

We seem to have a conflict of evidence here. It is known that Judo was to be included in the 1940 games which were to take place in Tokyo, and that Kano was alive at that time when that decision was made.


http://www.judoinfo.com/kano4.htm


This isn't a huge issue IMO, but I'd just like to point out that I never said that Kano CREATED Judo to be an Olympic sport, Kano did help develop the rules that would eventually become Olympic Judo, and Judo was scheduled to become an Olympic sport in his lifetime and while he was on the Olympic committee. If not for WW2, Judo would have made its debut in the 1940 Olympics in Tokyo, instead of 24 years later at the 1964 Olympics.

To believe that Kano had no hand in Judo's scheduled appearance at the 1940 Tokyo games is ridiculous.

Modern judo is not the same as what was being taught in the early 1900s. Post world war 2 judo is different.


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Yes but it was changing a long time before the war. It was demonstrated informally as sport at the 1932 Olympics from memory. I need to go out but will check later.

I will also try to check more as too whether it was accepted for the 1940 games or whether that is heresay. Everything I have found so far goes to one source which is at odds with Kano's own account. If anyone has a definitive source please post a reference.

 

[RTKDCMB]

What was this thread about again?

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, this might take a bit... I'm going to split it into the "ninjutsu" questions and statements, and the BJJ/Judo origins part...

How is the last statement total nonsense when you backed up that statement in your last sentence?

as for. Ninjutsu using Bjj:

http://youtu.be/8rp_AZttnOI
http://youtu.be/4ftxxEDMfOk

And there's plenty more.

That's not "ninjutsu using BJJ", though. It's the AKBAN organisation (a Ninjutsu/Bujinkan based organisation, headed by Yossi Sherif, former student of Doron Navon), and a big part of what they do is to attempt to document the various arts that have gone into the make-up of their teachers backgrounds (albeit with one or two other things...). In this case, you need to know that Doron Navon was also a Judoka, and taught his Judo methodology alongside the "Ninjutsu" portion of his syllabus (that's the thing here, mate, this ain't BJJ, it's Judo. Similar? Definitely. The same? Definitely not). Doron also taught Feldencrais... does that mean that the movement and postural work is part of Ninjutsu? Nope, not in the slightest.

But really, if you're going to post such clips, take a moment to read the comments, where Yossi states pretty clearly that this is from Judo, not BJJ, that it's not part of any of the schools of the Ninjutsu side (here's some free information for you.. in the "Ninjutsu" schools, what's taught is really only called "Ninjutsu" for convenience... it's actually a number of Japanese arts, namely Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu [and Ju(tai)jutsu in some cases], Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken [Dakentaijutsu and a large Bukijutsu syllabus], Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Ju[tai]jutsu, Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu [one of the smallest, and the primary source of any actual "ninjutsu"], Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu, Koto Ryu Koppojutsu, and so on), and is really only there as part of an attempt to document the myriad techniques found in all the arts taught there, Judo being one of them.

This, by the way, is the definition of "fail" when it comes to recognizing what a martial art is.

It's not just one guy, it's that entire style/branch of Ninjutsu. They even openly admit to using techniques from Bjj.

Its important to note that these aren't the only Ninjas incorporating Bjj into their art.

No, they state that they also teach BJJ/Judo, not that they "openly admit to using techniques from BJJ". And, as I already said, yes, there are some teachers who are teaching both Bujinkan and BJJ... or training in both. And there are others who have used BJJ to help inform their ground work... but that's not the same as "incorporating" BJJ into Ninjutsu. Your logic is flawed, and you aren't listening to any correction.

I have seen the Undertaker do that exact same move, maybe the WWE does BJJ as well.

Well... the WWE doesn't do BJJ, but Mark Calaway (the Undertaker) does. He holds a black belt under Rolles Gracie. Other WWE performers have trained, or continue to train in it as well, such as Eve Torres and CM Punk.

I can't address it in detail -- but Akban is to the traditional ninjutsu schools (the x-kans) as Gracie jiujitsu is to Kodokan judo. The folks in Akban have chosen to go their own, very different route from the Bujinkan and many of the other traditional ninjutsu schools.

While there are certain differences between the Akban group and other organisations, it's not quite the same as that... but that's getting way off topic.

What suggests that it is pulled from Bjj is that they openly admit to incorporating Bjj into their syllabus, and the fact that they're calling it a Triangle Choke instead of Sankaku Jime. This also applies to them calling their primary ground position the Guard as opposed to Do-Sae.

Again, we're not just talking about movement similarities. We're also talking about these schools using the same names as well as admitting to incorporating Bjj themselves.

Firstly, again I'd suggest what's written on the clips you post... there's a mix of both Japanese and English terminology... but I noted absolutely no Portuguese. Hmm.... Frankly, the usage of the English is because it's aimed at a large audience, so simple, easily identifiable and recognizable language is used. If Do Jime or Do Sae was listed, would the larger audience know what they were? Additionally, as I just showed by using a different (Japanese) term, specific names are particular to specific systems/arts... there is no such thing as a singly used and adopted terminology. Using a "common language" is simply a way to get more people identifying what they're seeing and being able to relate to them.

Well here's another Ninjutsu branch that incorporates Bjj. This one appears to be more affiliated with the Bujinkan;

http://youtu.be/Wr4fN373Q2w

http://www.todaidojo.com/

The point is, if you join a ninjutsu school there's a solid chance you're going to be learning some Bjj.

Again, mate, read the comments... there is mention that the head instructor trained in both Bujinkan and BJJ. And, again, I personally brought up instructors in the Bujinkan (Simon Yeo) who teach BJJ alongside the Bujinkan material... so? Richard Van Donk also teaches a line of Escrima/Kali that he has... does that mean that Ninjutsu has Kali in it? I mean, I also know of other Bujinkan students who train in other forms of Kali as well...

I will say this. Despite claims from certain circles, there is no ground fighting in any of the arts of the Bujinkan. There are Kime Waza/Osai Komi, and there is Suwari Waza, but there is no ne waza. So, should a particular dojo want to look at ne waza, I'd recommend they look to either Judo or BJJ. We don't have any. Why not? Because it has no place in the contexts and historical realities of our systems. There's also no ne waza in any of the Koryu I study either... should they have some, do you think? Here's a clue - the answer is no.

Actually Scott Morrison was a black belt under Mike Bussey as part of Robert Bussey's Warrior International fight system. It's a splinter art of ninjutsu, meant to functionalize the traditional martial art for modern hand to hand combat. The interesting thing about this is he fought MMA 3 times, loosing on e via TKO and winning twice via SUBMISSION.
Your boy Steve Jennum also fought in the UFC, winning two fights, one by submission and another by out grappling Harold Howard to gain full mount and win via ground and pound.

so out of 5 UFC victories by Ninjutsu fighters 5 of those wins came via grappling and submissions, chokes and armbars.

Er... and? Are you trying to imply that the only way anyone can win via submission is by using BJJ? Seriously? Not familiar with Judo, Kansetsu waza, Osai Komi, CaCC Wrestling, Greco-Roman, Freestyle, or any of a large number of other forms? You do realise, of course, that although there is no traditional ground fighting what are called the Ninjutsu systems, they are Japanese arts, which makes them grappling-oriented almost by definition (note here: grappling does not, nor has it ever, refer to ground fighting. That is a gross mis-application of the term by modern ground fighters)? Japanese arts aren't striking arts... they're all about catching, holding, pinning, choking, locking, throwing... and you're thinking that someone with a Japanese art background getting people to submit shows a dominance of something he hadn't trained in? Really?

I mean, let me ask you something... is this BJJ?



How about this one?



The answer is that, no, they're not. They are Tengu Gaeshi and Tengu Otoshi (respectively) from Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu... from the late 16th/early 17th Century. And, for the record, this is something that is found in the Ninjutsu schools (Hatsumi learnt it early on, and Tanemura [head of the Genbukan] currently holds the position of head of the Ryu in a line of it).

And, yes, Scott was a black belt under Mike... who is Bob's brother. Your point? Oh, and I'm really not the person to inform about the history of RBWI or anything related, for the record.

thats a pretty long post of yours. I will take the time to read it all and maybe learn something.

Hope you do. And yeah, it had some length... but still far from a record for me, ha!

Well that's a pretty strange comparison. In many ways Gjj is more traditional than Judo. Kano's goal was to make Judo an Olympic sport. Helio Gracie's goal was to create a practical fighting system. You're already seeing some division between more traditional Bjj, and more sport/MMA based Bjj. That said, all Bjj schools, Gjj or otherwise encourage competition. I would also say that Judo is far more resistant to change than Bjj. The embrace of No Gi in Bjj vs its virtual non-existence in Judo is a prime example.

1: Kano's goal was absolutely not to "make Judo an Olympic sport".
2: Even if true, that would in no way make Judo less or more traditional... the idea that BJJ (Gracie variant) and it's goal of a "practical fighting system" makes it more traditional is completely irrelevant. RBSD systems are even more concerned than BJJ is for creating practical fighting systems, with absolutely no competition aspect at all...and they aren't traditional in the slightest. The benchmarks you're applying aren't accurate at all.

I think that the AKBAN is a separate organization, that uses bujinkan techniques but because they have extra stuff they created there own org. From my understanding the entire AKBAN organization teaches bjj techniques. I have seen some of there sparring videos and they often devolve into ground grappling. Some of them are quite good.

Ground grappling does not equal BJJ. Most of their ground work comes from Doron Navon's Judo background. And, if you ask them, they will tell you that they're still part of the Bujinkan... there actually aren't any restrictions on what an instructor or group within the Bujinkan can or can't add to their syllabus.

So its a new style all its own and not ninjitsu at all.

No, it's a group of Ninjutsu-based schools within the Bujinkan fold (oh, and for the record, "ninjutsu", never "ninjitsu"... there are reasons...)

Ya I guess your right, but by that same token the Bujinkan isn't ninjutsu either.

Sure, it isn't... but the term is used because listing "Jujutsu, Dakentaijutsu, Taihenjutsu, Kenjutsu, Bojutsu, Hanbojutsu, Sojutsu, Jojutsu, Jutte, Kodachi, Taijutsu, Ninpo, Naginatajutsu, Bisentojutsu etc etc etc", or "Togakure Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Kukishinden Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Gikan Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu" just takes too damn long to say...

The Akban definitely consider themselves a Ninjutsu style.

Yes they do. Because the bulk of what they do comes from Doron Navon, the first non-Japanese to be awarded a teaching licence in the Bujinkan. But it's not the only thing they do.

Doesn't matter what they consider themselves if they don'tsubscribe to ninjutsu pprinciples then its not ninjutsu. I can call myself a BJJ guy if I want but it doesn't make it true

Ah, now that opens up a whole grey area...

What exactly are "Ninjutsu Principles"? To my knowledge Masaki Hatsumi plays everything pretty loose over at the Bujinkan, leaving his disciples to develop their own Ninjutsu.

Yes and no. While there certainly is a lot of freedom, and personal exploration is encouraged, there are still quite a number of traits and concepts that are found throughout the art and it's practice. What are these principles? Well, it'll depend on what exactly you're looking at... but, in essence, you'll see a lot of evasive movement, subtle usage of angling and distancing, particular approaches to targeting, fluid actions, complete body movement rather than isolated parts of the body, and so on. It also has incorporation of weapons into a lot of "unarmed" approaches.

No the point is if you join THAT school you will learn BJJ

No, I'd say that if you joined that school you'd learn some aspects which are part of what is found in BJJ. I mean, if you learnt only two stick drills from Kali in amongst a deeper, wider study of karate, are you also learning FMA? Or are you learning something, an aspect, that draws from FMA? Semantics, maybe, but important, I feel.

And the Akban organization, which have quite a number of schools. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find more Ninjutsu groups doing Bjj ground fighting.

Like I said, you have ninjutsu schools teaching and incorporating Bjj into their style.

No Ninjutsu school that I have ever come across is actually incorporating BJJ into their "style". It's simply not possible, really. It can be incorporated into the school, but that's another situation entirely.

That's not what you said. That's is true you do have SOME schools adding BJJ. Your claim was the ninjutsu as a style added it. That's false.

And, frankly, impossible. To do so would be to create something that was neither Ninjutsu nor BJJ.

Actually BJJ's base is Judo (Mitsuyo Maeda)... Judo's base is Jujutsu (Fukuda Hachinosuke)...so they do not actually have the same base

From a technical standpoint, the base of Judo is Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu (Kano had two teachers of that system, Fukuda Hachinosuke first, and Iso Masatomo second), and Kito Ryu (under Iikubo Tsunetoshi) with Fukuda and Iikubo having a preference for randori (free training), which helped shape the young Kano's approach to his development of Judo. The ne-waza is based primarily in the Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, but got a lot more developed when Mataemon Tanabe was brought in as a guest instructor (Tanabe, as a smaller person, realized early that his best defence against the larger opponents in his randori training throwing him was to drop down and pull the opponent down as well, fighting from there. Despite Tanabe being the then-head of Fusen Ryu, the ne waza he employed was almost purely from his randori exploration, not Fusen Ryu itself).

Actually they do have the same base, because at one point they were the same style.

Not really... Maeda was a Kodokan member, sure. But that's not the whole story either. He was also pretty much what we'd class today as almost a professional wrestler... there was a range of other influences in what he taught. And from what I've seen, he hardly gave the full Kodokan syllabus... at best, he gave a form of Judo in it's infancy, mixed with a few other things, and skewed towards working on the ground.

BJJ's base is Judo. Judo's base is Jujutsu. I would say that both came from Jujutsu.

Jujutsu -> Judo -> BJJ

Except that's not right either. For one thing, there's no such single art as "jujutsu". You need to trace it back to specific systems of Jujutsu... if we go back via Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, we go back to Yoshin Ryu (Akiyama Yoshin Ryu), which was based on three primarily striking techniques brought back by Akiyama from China, extrapolated and developed into an expansive grappling method. Kito Ryu traces back to the Yagyu family, who taught Yagyu Shinkage Ryu... which goes back to Shinkage Ryu, then to Kage Ryu... all of which are sword systems.

You really need to recognise which Jujutsu you're talking about...

Nope....BJJ's base is Judo not Jujutsu. Judo's base is Jujutsu.

Kano Modified Jujutsu to get Judo and Gracie modified Judo to get Brazilian jiu-jitsu

I would say that they both came from Jujutsu as well but the beginning point (aka the base) for BJJ is Judo not Jujutsu

There was an evolution from an established style (Jujutsu) to another established style (Judo) and from that second established style you get an evolution to Brazilian jiu-jitsu

If Mitsuyo Maeda was a student of Kano and Kano taught Jujutsu to Mitsuyo Maeda then the base of BJJ would be Jujutsu. But the fact is that Mitsuyo Maeda was a student of Kano and Kano taught him Judo and Carlos Gracie learned Judo from Mitsuyo Maeda (not Jujutsu) its base is Judo. BJJ was developed based on the knowledge of Judo from Carlos and Hélio Gracie which they learned from Mitsuyo Maeda.

Well.... the early name for Judo was simply Kano-ha Jujutsu, so was Maeda taught Judo or Jujutsu? And is there a difference? Honestly, the answer is no, Judo is Jujutsu... it's just one form of it.

Modern judo is not the same as what was being taught in the early 1900s. Post world war 2 judo is different.

Damn straight, it is!

What was this thread about again?

Yeah... I tried to address that a few pages back... didn't seem to take....

 

[Hanzou]

1: Kano's goal was absolutely not to "make Judo an Olympic sport".
2: Even if true, that would in no way make Judo less or more traditional... the idea that BJJ (Gracie variant) and it's goal of a "practical fighting system" makes it more traditional is completely irrelevant. RBSD systems are even more concerned than BJJ is for creating practical fighting systems, with absolutely no competition aspect at all...and they aren't traditional in the slightest. The benchmarks you're applying aren't accurate at all.

The reason I said that in many ways Gjj is more traditional than modern Judo is because Bjj was able to evolve freely without outside limitations (post-war ban, Olympic rules).

Also in my experience, Bjj as a whole tends to be quite a bit more progressive than Judo.

 

[ballen0351]

The reason I said that in many ways Gjj is more traditional than modern Judo is because Bjj was able to evolve freely without outside limitations (post-war ban, Olympic rules).

Also in my experience, Bjj as a whole tends to be quite a bit more progressive than Judo.

Maby my interpretation of progressive and traditional are different then yours. To me they are opposite. So to say BJJ is more traditional because its more progressive makes no sense to me

 

[ballen0351]

Modern judo and bjj are both the children of the judo taught in the early 1900s. They both have the same base. Two sides of the same coin.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

What's the difference between judo and modern judo in your opinion?

 

[Hanzou]

Maby my interpretation of progressive and traditional are different then yours. To me they are opposite. So to say BJJ is more traditional because its more progressive makes no sense to me

I didn't say that Bjj is more traditional because its more progressive. I said that in many ways its more traditional than modern Judo, and at the same time its also more progressive as a whole than modern Judo. Its more traditional because it has a more direct line to pre-war Judo and it isn't influenced by Olympic rules. At the same time, its more progressive than Judo because its more open to changes in grappling, like No-Gi for example.

 

[ballen0351]

I didn't say that Bjj is more traditional because its more progressive. I said that in many ways its more traditional than modern Judo, and at the same time its also more progressive as a whole than modern Judo. Its more traditional because it has a more direct line to pre-war Judo and it isn't influenced by Olympic rules. At the same time, its more progressive than Judo because its more open to changes in grappling, like No-Gi for example.

So what's the difference between prewar judo and post war?

 

[Kframe]

Chris parker. I didn't know that there ground work was judo. I didn't read much into there comments section. I tend to call all ground fighting techniques BJJ by default. I guess I should be more careful with my terminology.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well.... the early name for Judo was simply Kano-ha Jujutsu, so was Maeda taught Judo or Jujutsu? And is there a difference? Honestly, the answer is no, Judo is Jujutsu... it's just one form of it.

Yeah I know...so if we are going to play this game then lets be completely correct here since Jujutsu is a generic name and you are using an specific name, Kano-ha Jujutsu, and mixing it with the generic term to make your case.....

Then the base of Judo (aka Kano-ha Jujutsu) is Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū jujutsu and the base of Brazillion Jiujitsu is Kano-ha Jujutsu which does say that generically they both have a jujutsu base but yet they still do not have the "same" base since Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū jujutsu is not the same as Kano-ha Jujutsu.

Therefore they still do not share the same base since Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū jujutsu was changed to get to Kano-ha Jujutsu and the beginning of BJJ is Kano-ha Jujutsu not Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū jujutsu.

 

[Hanzou]

So what's the difference between prewar judo and post war?

Newaza. Two things really stifled the growth of newaza in Judo: Kano and Olympic Judo. Kano greatly preferred throws over ground work. Some sources even go so far as to say he disliked ground work because he wasn't very good at it. Kano's distaste for ground work spilled over into tournament Judo, where the rules forced newaza to be limited, and throwing was emphasized. Maeda left Japan right at the time when Newaza had begun to become popular in Judo, and before Kano began to put rules in place to limit it.

Olympic Judo also limited newaza, and every new rule they put in place limits it even further.

Gjj does teach breakfalling, and Judo throws. However, a lot more wrestling takedowns took hold in Bjj's stand up game because the Gracies found that a lot of Judo throws simply didn't work without the Gi. I'm willing to bet that Maeda came to a similar conclusion.

 

[ballen0351]

Newaza. Two things really stifled the growth of newaza in Judo: Kano and Olympic Judo. Kano greatly preferred throws over ground work. Some sources even go so far as to say he disliked ground work because he wasn't very good at it. Kano's distaste for ground work spilled over into tournament Judo, where the rules forced newaza to be limited, and throwing was emphasized. Maeda left Japan right at the time when Newaza had begun to become popular in Judo, and before Kano began to put rules in place to limit it.

Olympic Judo also limited newaza, and every new rule they put in place limits it even further.

Gjj does teach breakfalling, and Judo throws. However, a lot more wrestling takedowns took hold in Bjj's stand up game because the Gracies found that a lot of Judo throws simply didn't work without the Gi. I'm willing to bet that Maeda came to a similar conclusion.

So then again that would depend on where you learn judo. We must learn pre-war judo in my class since we spend equal time on takedown and ground work. We learn stuff not allowed in comps leg locks ankle locks finger and wrist locks. He even teaches strikes.

 

[Steve]

Okay, this might take a bit... I'm going to split it into the "ninjutsu" questions and statements, and the BJJ/Judo origins part...



That's not "ninjutsu using BJJ", though. It's the AKBAN organisation (a Ninjutsu/Bujinkan based organisation, headed by Yossi Sherif, former student of Doron Navon), and a big part of what they do is to attempt to document the various arts that have gone into the make-up of their teachers backgrounds (albeit with one or two other things...). In this case, you need to know that Doron Navon was also a Judoka, and taught his Judo methodology alongside the "Ninjutsu" portion of his syllabus (that's the thing here, mate, this ain't BJJ, it's Judo. Similar? Definitely. The same? Definitely not). Doron also taught Feldencrais... does that mean that the movement and postural work is part of Ninjutsu? Nope, not in the slightest.

But really, if you're going to post such clips, take a moment to read the comments, where Yossi states pretty clearly that this is from Judo, not BJJ, that it's not part of any of the schools of the Ninjutsu side (here's some free information for you.. in the "Ninjutsu" schools, what's taught is really only called "Ninjutsu" for convenience... it's actually a number of Japanese arts, namely Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu [and Ju(tai)jutsu in some cases], Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken [Dakentaijutsu and a large Bukijutsu syllabus], Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Ju[tai]jutsu, Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu [one of the smallest, and the primary source of any actual "ninjutsu"], Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu, Koto Ryu Koppojutsu, and so on), and is really only there as part of an attempt to document the myriad techniques found in all the arts taught there, Judo being one of them.

This, by the way, is the definition of "fail" when it comes to recognizing what a martial art is.



No, they state that they also teach BJJ/Judo, not that they "openly admit to using techniques from BJJ". And, as I already said, yes, there are some teachers who are teaching both Bujinkan and BJJ... or training in both. And there are others who have used BJJ to help inform their ground work... but that's not the same as "incorporating" BJJ into Ninjutsu. Your logic is flawed, and you aren't listening to any correction.



Well... the WWE doesn't do BJJ, but Mark Calaway (the Undertaker) does. He holds a black belt under Rolles Gracie. Other WWE performers have trained, or continue to train in it as well, such as Eve Torres and CM Punk.



While there are certain differences between the Akban group and other organisations, it's not quite the same as that... but that's getting way off topic.



Firstly, again I'd suggest what's written on the clips you post... there's a mix of both Japanese and English terminology... but I noted absolutely no Portuguese. Hmm.... Frankly, the usage of the English is because it's aimed at a large audience, so simple, easily identifiable and recognizable language is used. If Do Jime or Do Sae was listed, would the larger audience know what they were? Additionally, as I just showed by using a different (Japanese) term, specific names are particular to specific systems/arts... there is no such thing as a singly used and adopted terminology. Using a "common language" is simply a way to get more people identifying what they're seeing and being able to relate to them.



Again, mate, read the comments... there is mention that the head instructor trained in both Bujinkan and BJJ. And, again, I personally brought up instructors in the Bujinkan (Simon Yeo) who teach BJJ alongside the Bujinkan material... so? Richard Van Donk also teaches a line of Escrima/Kali that he has... does that mean that Ninjutsu has Kali in it? I mean, I also know of other Bujinkan students who train in other forms of Kali as well...

I will say this. Despite claims from certain circles, there is no ground fighting in any of the arts of the Bujinkan. There are Kime Waza/Osai Komi, and there is Suwari Waza, but there is no ne waza. So, should a particular dojo want to look at ne waza, I'd recommend they look to either Judo or BJJ. We don't have any. Why not? Because it has no place in the contexts and historical realities of our systems. There's also no ne waza in any of the Koryu I study either... should they have some, do you think? Here's a clue - the answer is no.



Er... and? Are you trying to imply that the only way anyone can win via submission is by using BJJ? Seriously? Not familiar with Judo, Kansetsu waza, Osai Komi, CaCC Wrestling, Greco-Roman, Freestyle, or any of a large number of other forms? You do realise, of course, that although there is no traditional ground fighting what are called the Ninjutsu systems, they are Japanese arts, which makes them grappling-oriented almost by definition (note here: grappling does not, nor has it ever, refer to ground fighting. That is a gross mis-application of the term by modern ground fighters)? Japanese arts aren't striking arts... they're all about catching, holding, pinning, choking, locking, throwing... and you're thinking that someone with a Japanese art background getting people to submit shows a dominance of something he hadn't trained in? Really?

I mean, let me ask you something... is this BJJ?

View attachment 18463

How about this one?

View attachment 18464

The answer is that, no, they're not. They are Tengu Gaeshi and Tengu Otoshi (respectively) from Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu... from the late 16th/early 17th Century. And, for the record, this is something that is found in the Ninjutsu schools (Hatsumi learnt it early on, and Tanemura [head of the Genbukan] currently holds the position of head of the Ryu in a line of it).

And, yes, Scott was a black belt under Mike... who is Bob's brother. Your point? Oh, and I'm really not the person to inform about the history of RBWI or anything related, for the record.



Hope you do. And yeah, it had some length... but still far from a record for me, ha!



1: Kano's goal was absolutely not to "make Judo an Olympic sport".
2: Even if true, that would in no way make Judo less or more traditional... the idea that BJJ (Gracie variant) and it's goal of a "practical fighting system" makes it more traditional is completely irrelevant. RBSD systems are even more concerned than BJJ is for creating practical fighting systems, with absolutely no competition aspect at all...and they aren't traditional in the slightest. The benchmarks you're applying aren't accurate at all.



Ground grappling does not equal BJJ. Most of their ground work comes from Doron Navon's Judo background. And, if you ask them, they will tell you that they're still part of the Bujinkan... there actually aren't any restrictions on what an instructor or group within the Bujinkan can or can't add to their syllabus.



No, it's a group of Ninjutsu-based schools within the Bujinkan fold (oh, and for the record, "ninjutsu", never "ninjitsu"... there are reasons...)



Sure, it isn't... but the term is used because listing "Jujutsu, Dakentaijutsu, Taihenjutsu, Kenjutsu, Bojutsu, Hanbojutsu, Sojutsu, Jojutsu, Jutte, Kodachi, Taijutsu, Ninpo, Naginatajutsu, Bisentojutsu etc etc etc", or "Togakure Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Kukishinden Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Gikan Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu" just takes too damn long to say...



Yes they do. Because the bulk of what they do comes from Doron Navon, the first non-Japanese to be awarded a teaching licence in the Bujinkan. But it's not the only thing they do.



Ah, now that opens up a whole grey area...



Yes and no. While there certainly is a lot of freedom, and personal exploration is encouraged, there are still quite a number of traits and concepts that are found throughout the art and it's practice. What are these principles? Well, it'll depend on what exactly you're looking at... but, in essence, you'll see a lot of evasive movement, subtle usage of angling and distancing, particular approaches to targeting, fluid actions, complete body movement rather than isolated parts of the body, and so on. It also has incorporation of weapons into a lot of "unarmed" approaches.



No, I'd say that if you joined that school you'd learn some aspects which are part of what is found in BJJ. I mean, if you learnt only two stick drills from Kali in amongst a deeper, wider study of karate, are you also learning FMA? Or are you learning something, an aspect, that draws from FMA? Semantics, maybe, but important, I feel.



No Ninjutsu school that I have ever come across is actually incorporating BJJ into their "style". It's simply not possible, really. It can be incorporated into the school, but that's another situation entirely.



And, frankly, impossible. To do so would be to create something that was neither Ninjutsu nor BJJ.



From a technical standpoint, the base of Judo is Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu (Kano had two teachers of that system, Fukuda Hachinosuke first, and Iso Masatomo second), and Kito Ryu (under Iikubo Tsunetoshi) with Fukuda and Iikubo having a preference for randori (free training), which helped shape the young Kano's approach to his development of Judo. The ne-waza is based primarily in the Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, but got a lot more developed when Mataemon Tanabe was brought in as a guest instructor (Tanabe, as a smaller person, realized early that his best defence against the larger opponents in his randori training throwing him was to drop down and pull the opponent down as well, fighting from there. Despite Tanabe being the then-head of Fusen Ryu, the ne waza he employed was almost purely from his randori exploration, not Fusen Ryu itself).



Not really... Maeda was a Kodokan member, sure. But that's not the whole story either. He was also pretty much what we'd class today as almost a professional wrestler... there was a range of other influences in what he taught. And from what I've seen, he hardly gave the full Kodokan syllabus... at best, he gave a form of Judo in it's infancy, mixed with a few other things, and skewed towards working on the ground.



Except that's not right either. For one thing, there's no such single art as "jujutsu". You need to trace it back to specific systems of Jujutsu... if we go back via Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, we go back to Yoshin Ryu (Akiyama Yoshin Ryu), which was based on three primarily striking techniques brought back by Akiyama from China, extrapolated and developed into an expansive grappling method. Kito Ryu traces back to the Yagyu family, who taught Yagyu Shinkage Ryu... which goes back to Shinkage Ryu, then to Kage Ryu... all of which are sword systems.

You really need to recognise which Jujutsu you're talking about...



Well.... the early name for Judo was simply Kano-ha Jujutsu, so was Maeda taught Judo or Jujutsu? And is there a difference? Honestly, the answer is no, Judo is Jujutsu... it's just one form of it.



Damn straight, it is!



Yeah... I tried to address that a few pages back... didn't seem to take....

Chris, if it is ground fighting and it works, it's Bjj... Even if it's not. You should know that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[frank raud]

Newaza. Two things really stifled the growth of newaza in Judo: Kano and Olympic Judo. Kano greatly preferred throws over ground work. Some sources even go so far as to say he disliked ground work because he wasn't very good at it. Kano's distaste for ground work spilled over into tournament Judo, where the rules forced newaza to be limited, and throwing was emphasized. Maeda left Japan right at the time when Newaza had begun to become popular in Judo, and before Kano began to put rules in place to limit it.

Olympic Judo also limited newaza, and every new rule they put in place limits it even further.

Gjj does teach breakfalling, and Judo throws. However, a lot more wrestling takedowns took hold in Bjj's stand up game because the Gracies found that a lot of Judo throws simply didn't work without the Gi. I'm willing to bet that Maeda came to a similar conclusion.

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Please explain how the first codified kata of judo is the katame no kata(forms of grappling on the ground)? Please explain Kano's dislike of groundwork and preference of throwing.

 

[Hanzou]

So then again that would depend on where you learn judo. We must learn pre-war judo in my class since we spend equal time on takedown and ground work. We learn stuff not allowed in comps leg locks ankle locks finger and wrist locks. He even teaches strikes.

Out of curiosity, what country are you in?

You are correct, it does depend on where you learn Judo. In top tier Olympic countries like France and Japan, you'd be hard-pressed to find a Judo dojo teaching what you're learning. I recently posted up an interview with Rhonda Rousey, and she talks about how newaza is largely ignored in many Judo schools because of competition.

 

[ballen0351]

Out of curiosity, what country are you in?

You are correct, it does depend on where you learn Judo. In top tier Olympic countries like France and Japan, you'd be hard-pressed to find a Judo dojo teaching what you're learning. I recently posted up an interview with Rhonda Rousey, and she talks about how newaza is largely ignored in many Judo schools because of competition.

Merica. My judo teacher teaches at a college but he teaches complete judo as he was taught. He just tells us "OK this you can't use in comps". Or "this is OK in comps". He believes Judo is a complete self defense system that also is sport but to him sport is secondary and not as important

 

[Kframe]

Figured id repost this here, as it will give some details of my personal experiances that have made it really hard for me to commit to stand up TMA arts.

You want to know why im worried. Ill tell you.. When I was younger I was in 2 fights. I lost them both thanks to no ground training..
My fear of being on the ground touches every art I have tried. I see a lot of good in this art, I just have hard time with my phobia of being dominated on the ground. I have a hard time wrapping my head around a art that doesn't do any ground work at all.

Honestly do you know what its like to be in a fight get taken down and forced to eat dirt? Or choked with a belt? I do, DO YOU? Hence my desire that this art work and has a proven track record.
This previous experience seeps into every single art I have tried. I love stand up arts, and prefer them to ground. But I also know what happens, if you don't have mastery there. It creates a doubt in my mind as to what im doing.
Ill train this art, either now or later. I think it is a good Stand up art.. I just need to master ground fighting first. I need to make my phobia my strength. If im going to commit to a stand up art, I have to master ground grappling.. I have to conquer my phobia.
I don't know if anyone here truly understands where im coming from.

 

[ballen0351]

Figured id repost this here, as it will give some details of my personal experiances that have made it really hard for me to commit to stand up TMA arts.

You want to know why im worried. Ill tell you.. When I was younger I was in 2 fights. I lost them both thanks to no ground training..
My fear of being on the ground touches every art I have tried. I see a lot of good in this art, I just have hard time with my phobia of being dominated on the ground. I have a hard time wrapping my head around a art that doesn't do any ground work at all.

Honestly do you know what its like to be in a fight get taken down and forced to eat dirt? Or choked with a belt? I do, DO YOU? Hence my desire that this art work and has a proven track record.
This previous experience seeps into every single art I have tried. I love stand up arts, and prefer them to ground. But I also know what happens, if you don't have mastery there. It creates a doubt in my mind as to what im doing.
Ill train this art, either now or later. I think it is a good Stand up art.. I just need to master ground fighting first. I need to make my phobia my strength. If im going to commit to a stand up art, I have to master ground grappling.. I have to conquer my phobia.
I don't know if anyone here truly understands where im coming from.

That sucks but that's your experience. That's doesn't mean that you can't successfully defend yourself with a striking art as well. It also doesn't mean that BJJ is superior to anything else.

 

[Kframe]

That sucks but that's your experience. That's doesn't mean that you can't successfully defend yourself with a striking art as well. It also doesn't mean that BJJ is superior to anything else.

It does when you have a near paralyzing fear of being dominated on the ground...

 

[Hanzou]

Figured id repost this here, as it will give some details of my personal experiances that have made it really hard for me to commit to stand up TMA arts.

You want to know why im worried. Ill tell you.. When I was younger I was in 2 fights. I lost them both thanks to no ground training..
My fear of being on the ground touches every art I have tried. I see a lot of good in this art, I just have hard time with my phobia of being dominated on the ground. I have a hard time wrapping my head around a art that doesn't do any ground work at all.

Honestly do you know what its like to be in a fight get taken down and forced to eat dirt? Or choked with a belt? I do, DO YOU? Hence my desire that this art work and has a proven track record.
This previous experience seeps into every single art I have tried. I love stand up arts, and prefer them to ground. But I also know what happens, if you don't have mastery there. It creates a doubt in my mind as to what im doing.
Ill train this art, either now or later. I think it is a good Stand up art.. I just need to master ground fighting first. I need to make my phobia my strength. If im going to commit to a stand up art, I have to master ground grappling.. I have to conquer my phobia.
I don't know if anyone here truly understands where im coming from.

Considering that most people know how to fight naturally in stand up position, but don't naturally know how to fight on the ground, I think you've made a wise decision.