Sport And TMA....Again

[Hanzou]

Lets see....Judo became an Olympic sport in 1964 and Kano died in 1938....sorry no...Kano had nothing to do with it becoming an Olympic sport nor did he develop it with the Olympics in mind. So I am pretty sure you are basing that on opinion, theory and conjecture all of which are not historically provable.

However the historical fact is that Kano did develop Judo practiced for self-development, physical education and sport... but the Olympics never entered into it in his lifetime

We seem to have a conflict of evidence here. It is known that Judo was to be included in the 1940 games which were to take place in Tokyo, and that Kano was alive at that time when that decision was made.

As a member of the International Olympic Committee, Kano attended every Olympic Games from the Fifth Olympiad in 1912 in Stockholm to the 1936 Olympics in Berlin, including the 10th Olympiad in Los Angeles in 1932. Kudo asked Kano if Judo should be included in the Olympics and the Shihan replied: "If the IOC asks Japan to include it, then Japan will consider it." In 1913 Jigoro Kano, accompanied by Takasaki and S. Kotani, now international secretary of the Kodokan, went to Geneva to offer Tokyo as the site for the 12th Olympiad in 1940.


In 1935 Kano received the Asahi Prize for outstanding contributions in the fields of art, science and sports. Three years later he went to an IOC meeting in Cairo and succeeded in getting Tokyo nominated for the site of the 1940 Olympics at which Judo was to be included as one of the events for the first time.


It turned out to be the Shihan's crowning achievement although a cataclysmic world war was to force its postponement for another quarter of a century. On his way home from that momentous conference on board the SS Hikawa Maru on May 4, 1938, Jigoro Kano died from pneumonia. He was 78 years old.

http://www.judoinfo.com/kano4.htm


This isn't a huge issue IMO, but I'd just like to point out that I never said that Kano CREATED Judo to be an Olympic sport, Kano did help develop the rules that would eventually become Olympic Judo, and Judo was scheduled to become an Olympic sport in his lifetime and while he was on the Olympic committee. If not for WW2, Judo would have made its debut in the 1940 Olympics in Tokyo, instead of 24 years later at the 1964 Olympics.

To believe that Kano had no hand in Judo's scheduled appearance at the 1940 Tokyo games is ridiculous.

 

[Xue Sheng]

We seem to have a conflict of evidence here. It is known that Judo was to be included in the 1940 games which were to take place in Tokyo, and that Kano was alive at that time when that decision was made.


http://www.judoinfo.com/kano4.htm


This isn't a huge issue IMO, but I'd just like to point out that I never said that Kano CREATED Judo to be an Olympic sport, Kano did help develop the rules that would eventually become Olympic Judo, and Judo was scheduled to become an Olympic sport in his lifetime and while he was on the Olympic committee. If not for WW2, Judo would have made its debut in the 1940 Olympics in Tokyo, instead of 24 years later at the 1964 Olympics.

To believe that Kano had no hand in Judo's scheduled appearance at the 1940 Tokyo games is ridiculous.

It was known...by who? Again you are wrong

Judo was slated to be part of the 1940 Olympics in Tokyo but there were no 1940 Olympics in Tokyo...a little thing called World war 2 got in the way and it was not until 1964 that Judo was part of the Olympics. So it seems that your interpretation of the evidence you presented is...well...wrong

Japanese Olympic Committee

Olympic Flashback: Judo at the 1964 Summer Games

You have an obvious agenda here but you really need to do better research before presenting your....evidence.... what you have is opinion, theory and conjecture.....and no facts

have a nice day

 

[Hanzou]

I have no idea you would have to ask Chris Parker since I've never stepped one foot in a Ninjutsu dojo. They may very well be ninjutsu branch it still does not mean ninjutsu now teaches BJJ it means that branch does. I've trained in GOJU under IOGKF and Jundikan orgs. They are both similar but different. So does one speak for all Goju or just themselves?

Well here's another Ninjutsu branch that incorporates Bjj. This one appears to be more affiliated with the Bujinkan;

http://youtu.be/Wr4fN373Q2w

http://www.todaidojo.com/

The point is, if you join a ninjutsu school there's a solid chance you're going to be learning some Bjj.

 

[Hanzou]

It was known...by who? Again you are wrong

Judo was slated to be part of the 1940 Olympics in Tokyo but there were no 1940 Olympics in Tokyo...a little thing called World war 2 got in the way and it was not until 1964 that Judo was part of the Olympics. So it seems that your interpretation of the evidence you presented is...well...wrong

Japanese Olympic Committee

Olympic Flashback: Judo at the 1964 Summer Games

You have an obvious agenda here but you really need to do better research before presenting your....evidence.... what you have is opinion, theory and conjecture.....and no facts

have a nice day

How am I wrong when my post said exactly the same thing as your post did?


My point, (the one you seem to be missing) is that Kano was very much alive when Judo was slated to be a sport at the 1940 Olympics.

 

[ballen0351]

Well here's another Ninjutsu branch that incorporates Bjj. This one appears to be more affiliated with the Bujinkan;

http://youtu.be/Wr4fN373Q2w

http://www.todaidojo.com/

The point is, if you join a ninjutsu school there's a solid chance you're going to be learning some Bjj.

No the point is if you join THAT school you will learn BJJ

 

[MJS]

Make is no mistake about it, GJJ was and is an art about attrition. It's a patient art that is in absolutely no hurry to finish the fight.

Agreed. That's why I brought that up in my post to Hanzou.

oh and Keith Hackney was giving Royce a bit of trouble in there early fight.

Agreed.

 

[MJS]

Which is why Royce beat most of his opponents in under a minute?

I agree that the art can require patience, but it isn't an art of attrition by design. If anything, the user is capable of adapting the art to their opponent. Some can be dispatched quickly, others may require a bit more time.

That is true, however, I think that the 30min "Superfight" with Gracie and Shamrock, was a bit of an overkill. I mean, come on...30min and that was by far, one of the most boring fights I've seen in my life. I would say that while some fights were over pretty quick, most went past the min. mark.

 

[Hanzou]

That is true, however, I think that the 30min "Superfight" with Gracie and Shamrock, was a bit of an overkill. I mean, come on...30min and that was by far, one of the most boring fights I've seen in my life. I would say that while some fights were over pretty quick, most went past the min. mark.

Which ones? The only two that went exceedingly long were Severn and Shamrock. Kimo vs Gracie was over in 4 minutes. The rest if I recall were over within three minutes or less.

 

[Hanzou]

No the point is if you join THAT school you will learn BJJ

And the Akban organization, which have quite a number of schools. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find more Ninjutsu groups doing Bjj ground fighting.

Like I said, you have ninjutsu schools teaching and incorporating Bjj into their style.

 

[ballen0351]

Like I said, you have ninjutsu schools teaching and incorporating Bjj into their style.

That's not what you said. That's is true you do have SOME schools adding BJJ. Your claim was the ninjutsu as a style added it. That's false.

 

[Xue Sheng]

How am I wrong when my post said exactly the same thing as your post did?


My point, (the one you seem to be missing) is that Kano was very much alive when Judo was slated to be a sport at the 1940 Olympics.

My point which you seem to be missing is that when you said

Kano's goal was to make Judo an Olympic sport.

You were wrong because it wasn't, he was incredibly supportive of the 1940 Olympics in Japan, he was not opposed to having Judo in the Olympics but he was not pushing for it, his goal was not to make Judo an Olympic spot. Kano did develop Judo practice for self-development, physical education and sport. Tokyo got the Olympics in 1936 when Kano was alive that is true and that was Kano's goal, to get the Olympics in Tokyo

But why believe me lets see what Kano had to say about it

I have been asked by people of various sections as to the wisdom and the possibility of Judo being introduced at the Olympic Games. My view on the matter, at present, is rather passive. If it be the desire of other member countries, I have no objection. But I do not feel inclined to take any initiative. For one thing, Judo in reality is not a mere sport or game. I regard it as a principle of life, art and science. In fact, it is a means for personal cultural attainment. Only one of the forms of Judo training, the so-called randori can be classed as a form of sport... [In addition, the] Olympic Games are so strongly flavoured with nationalism that it is possible to be influenced by it and to develop Contest Judo as a retrograde form as Jujitsu was before the Kodokan was founded. Judo should be as free as art and science from external influences – political, national, racial, financial or any other organised interest. And all things connected with it should be directed to its ultimate object, the benefit of humanity.

---Jigoro Kano

Later

 

[MJS]

Which ones? The only two that went exceedingly long were Severn and Shamrock. Kimo vs Gracie was over in 4 minutes. The rest if I recall were over within three minutes or less.

http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Royce-Gracie-19

1 fight was under 1min. 4 were over 1min but under 2min. The rest were all well over the 1min mark.

 

[Hanzou]

My point which you seem to be missing is that when you said



You were wrong because it wasn't, he was incredibly supportive of the 1940 Olympics in Japan, he was not opposed to having Judo in the Olympics but he was not pushing for it, his goal was not to make Judo an Olympic spot. Kano did develop Judo practice for self-development, physical education and sport. Tokyo got the Olympics in 1936 when Kano was alive that is true and that was Kano's goal, to get the Olympics in Tokyo

But why believe me lets see what Kano had to say about it




Later

That quote was from 1936. Judo was added to the games in 1938. The legacy of Kano and Judo has been pretty strongly tied to the Olympic Games, for better or for worse. Because of that, Judo and Bij has evolved in very different ways, despite coming from the same base.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That quote was from 1936. Judo was added to the games in 1938. The legacy of Kano and Judo has been pretty strongly tied to the Olympic Games, for better or for worse. Because of that, Judo and Bij has evolved in very different ways, despite coming from the same base.

Actually BJJ's base is Judo (Mitsuyo Maeda)... Judo's base is Jujutsu (Fukuda Hachinosuke)...so they do not actually have the same base

 

[Hanzou]

Actually BJJ's base is Judo (Mitsuyo Maeda)... Judo's base is Jujutsu (Fukuda Hachinosuke)...so they do not actually have the same base

Actually they do have the same base, because at one point they were the same style.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Actually BJJ's base is Judo (Mitsuyo Maeda)... Judo's base is Jujutsu (Fukuda Hachinosuke)...so they do not actually have the same base

BJJ's base is Judo. Judo's base is Jujutsu. I would say that both came from Jujutsu.

Jujutsu -> Judo -> BJJ

 

[TFP]

Royce Gracie has had one fight that was under a minute and that was 57 seconds vs Ken Shamrock.


now do you care to talk about his 15:00, 15:00, 15:49, 36:00 or 90:00 minute fights? Or how about his fathers 3 hour, 42 minute fight?


listen, just because Royce did well In a quick fashion against some fighters with little experience vs grappling or the gi does not change the philosophy of GJJ. They were not taught to pass up on a submission attempt in order to go slow, of course if your opponent makes a mistake early you capitalize on it, but you don't force it and you don't rush it. GJJ is an extremely patient martial art.


listen it's ok to go "hey GJJ is an extremely effective art that can finish an opponent fast. But I didn't realize the philosophy behind the art was one of methodical patience".

 

[Steve]

Actually BJJ's base is Judo (Mitsuyo Maeda)... Judo's base is Jujutsu (Fukuda Hachinosuke)...so they do not actually have the same base

Modern judo and bjj are both the children of the judo taught in the early 1900s. They both have the same base. Two sides of the same coin.

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[Xue Sheng]

Actually they do have the same base, because at one point they were the same style.

Nope....BJJ's base is Judo not Jujutsu. Judo's base is Jujutsu.

Kano Modified Jujutsu to get Judo and Gracie modified Judo to get Brazilian jiu-jitsu

BJJ's base is Judo. Judo's base is Jujutsu. I would say that both came from Jujutsu.

Jujutsu -> Judo -> BJJ

I would say that they both came from Jujutsu as well but the beginning point (aka the base) for BJJ is Judo not Jujutsu

There was an evolution from an established style (Jujutsu) to another established style (Judo) and from that second established style you get an evolution to Brazilian jiu-jitsu

If Mitsuyo Maeda was a student of Kano and Kano taught Jujutsu to Mitsuyo Maeda then the base of BJJ would be Jujutsu. But the fact is that Mitsuyo Maeda was a student of Kano and Kano taught him Judo and Carlos Gracie learned Judo from Mitsuyo Maeda (not Jujutsu) its base is Judo. BJJ was developed based on the knowledge of Judo from Carlos and Hélio Gracie which they learned from Mitsuyo Maeda.

 

[Steve]

Modern judo is not the same as what was being taught in the early 1900s. Post world war 2 judo is different.


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