Sport And TMA....Again

[Steve]

Not quite sure what you are saying here. I was responding to Hanzou 's claim firstly that BJJ was the greatest thing since sliced bread and that BJJ was great because other styles are using its techniques. In my local area two BJJ schools have recently closed, one in the dojo I train where the guy left owing back rent. Frankly BJJ has no great following here although guys promoting MMA are doing all right. I like BJJ and don't doubt its effectiveness, but in the end it is just another martial art. Why do we have to have every discussion hijacked to this stupid BJJ is the greatest mantra? What I would love to discuss is how sport has affected TMAs without more than a passing mention of BJJ when it is appropriate. This is from memory the third thread that the rabbit has taken down his burrow.
:asian:

I think that if you don't like talking about Bjj, you're the best person to do something about that.

Regarding your post to hanzou, you chose to post it in a public forum and not to pm him, so I presume that it is fair game for a reply. If you don't want other comments, then pm is the right place. This is true, even if you bold his username.

Whether it is viable in your area or not is not really something I can't comment on, although I know that Bjj is popular and growing throughout the world. That's regardless of a few poor business men you may have experience with. Its a complex art suitable for all ages and body types.

And, while mma may be moving rapidly toward becoming a martial arts style all its own, it still enjoys a beneficial synergy with Bjj. Which was my point.

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[Steve]

Just out of interest can you list those styles that were taking part in thos pre MMA Gracie challenges?

You can see many of them on YouTube. Just search keyword Gracie challenge. I think rorian actually narrated several.

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[K-man]

I think that if you don't like talking about Bjj, you're the best person to do something about that.

Regarding your post to hanzou, you chose to post it in a public forum and not to pm him, so I presume that it is fair game for a reply. If you don't want other comments, then pm is the right place. This is true, even if you bold his username.

Whether it is viable in your area or not is not really something I can't comment on, although I know that Bjj is popular and growing throughout the world. That's regardless of a few poor business men you may have experience with. Its a complex art suitable for all ages and body types.

And, while mma may be moving rapidly toward becoming a martial arts style all its own, it still enjoys a beneficial synergy with Bjj. Which was my point.

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Sorry? :idunno:

If I have a problem with Hanzou I'll certainly take it up with him. FWIW I highlight everyone's username if you care to check. I have no problem talking about BJJ in any forum that applies to me. If it was a BJJ thread I might read it and probably would not comment as I am the first to admit that I am not an exponent of that art.

So how am I the best person to do something about that, neg rep him? I think I've done that once or twice in 5 years. Put him on ignore? Why bother? Just accept BS as fact? Come on, that's not right either.

I don't have a problem with any of your posts because they are rational and balanced but I do have a problem with posts from others that are totally biased and disrupt genuine discussion.

As to you comment on BJJ, no it wasn't poor business practice. The principal of those schools has a number of schools. These closed because of lack of numbers. That has nothing to do with popularity worldwide, here it is nothing special. As to BJJ's synergy with MMA, undoubtably at the moment it is a huge part of MMA. All I said was that as MMA develops and the instructors of MMA develop all the skills necessary to compete in MMA will be available in store, so to speak.

 

[Hanzou]

Make is no mistake about it, GJJ was and is an art about attrition. It's a patient art that is in absolutely no hurry to finish the fight.

Which is why Royce beat most of his opponents in under a minute?

I agree that the art can require patience, but it isn't an art of attrition by design. If anything, the user is capable of adapting the art to their opponent. Some can be dispatched quickly, others may require a bit more time.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, this is an interesting little thread... honestly, there's a lot I'd love to say (Hanzou is wildly off-base in almost everything, TFP is missing quite a lot, Kframe [sorry bud] is deeply off in a lot of his comments, I have no idea what planet John [kung fu wang] is on, and far, far more), but that'd mean going over the whole thing, cause I'm kinda OCD that way, and I just don't have that kinda patience. So, I figure I'll just address a few things from recent pages, and then put in a few thoughts... and maybe revisit the, you know, actual topic...

TFP that video of the ninjutsu guy is disheartening.. Christ he didn't even look like he trained. No kamae, no good foot work, no distance control.

What ninjutsu guy? There wasn't one in the clip.... frankly, the guy may have claimed ninjutsu (or, tellingly, "ninjitsu") but he showed less exposure to any Japanese art (ninjutsu or otherwise) than you get exposure to the French language by reading Asterix comics. To emphasise the point... it'd be like having someone claim that their art is Judo, and only using (poor, imitation) kickboxing actions. That's how far off ninjutsu he was... it wasn't just a poor example, it wasn't an example at all.

But, for the record, as there have been a few claims that Ninjutsu has never "stepped up", I am aware of a few Bujinkan members who have also trained and/or competed in MMA competitions, the third UFC was won by someone with a Ninjutsu background (well, an eclectic one that included Ninjutsu, from Robert Bussey's group), so....

Whats stupid about that moron was, I have only done BBT for a very short while and I know that there is a low kick defense in the Kata I have done. That video is a perfect example of what happens if you don't pressure test your self in some fashion. Idiot backed him self into a wall didn't have his guard up, only moving back wards. It honestly looked like a very low level practitioner. I don't think it would have mattered what art he was. He was clearly not prepared for the pressure that was being put forth.

Look, I'll deal with the idea of "pressure testing" in a bit, because it really isn't what you're thinking here (or many proponents of sparring and competition training, honestly), but again, there is no indication of ever stepping foot inside any Ninjutsu dojo here.

Your last statement it total nonsense. It will need someone like Chris Parker to speak on your assertion that Ninjutsu have incorporated BJJ into their training but it sounds like a fairy story to me. As for Krav and Systema, they are neither sport nor TMA. They are constantly evolving and they make no secret of the fact they will take the best of any style if it works within their system. BJJ is a tiny part of Krav and Systema and in no way supports your assertions.

Hmm? Oh, okay...

Ninjutsu (as an art) has not, in any way, incorporated BJJ into itself. Some Ninjutsu instructors (coming primarily from the Bujinkan) have incorporated aspects of, or the art itself of, BJJ into their classes. People such as Simon Yeo in the UK train in both, and teach both (often separately, sometimes together) in their schools. Personally, I have trained in BJJ for a little while myself (a Gracie school, for the record... attended a seminar under Royce at one point... guys a great technician, but the blinders shown really put me off), and (in our "street defence" section) we do sometimes deal with ground work... with the dominant aim of getting up off the ground. In order to do that, I do teach a number of positions and reversals, and my time in BJJ did certainly help me in my understanding of what is real and what is not on the ground... and if a BJJ practitioner was to watch what I teach, they'd probably recognise what I was showing (with some alterations)... but I don't teach BJJ, nor have I really "incorporated" it into my methods. What I teach is our modern street defence (Goshinjutsu), in a different context entirely to BJJ, with a number of adaptations to bring it all in line with the rest of our methods... because BJJ, frankly, just doesn't cut it for me there.

But, of course, to follow what I'm saying, you'd need to understand that a martial art is not defined by it's techniques...

Didn't want to further sidetrack the "Is BJJ good for SD" thread, so I figured I'd start a new one. In that thread, Steve and I were talking about sport and TMAs, and the misconceptions that some people may have, as to the effectiveness of sport fighting arts.

This is a comment that I made:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...JJ-work-in-a-real-fight?p=1610425#post1610425

I mentioned that one of the things that may make the sporting arts appear to not be effective in the eyes of some, is the lack of SD techniques that we typically see in most other arts. I'll use Kenpo for example. There're defenses for pretty much every attack out there: punches, grabs, chokes, kicks, weapons, etc. Usually the sport guys say that the notion of defending yourself against multiple, weapons, etc, is a fallacy. I commented to Steve that if in fact this is true, then technically all one really needs to work on, is pure fighting skill.

So, what are your thoughts? Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defned against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill, such as we'd see in the ring, good enough?

Ah, the OP.... good to see you again.

Before I deal with it specifically, there's a few things I'd like to mention. Namely, that the first thing that needs to be defined is "what is a TMA, and what is a 'sport' martial art"... then, we need to answer a more important question...."Are they different?"

Let's be clear. There are a large number of traditional martial arts that are sporting, or sporting centric (or, at least involve sporting methods through their teachings). There are a number of modern systems and non-traditional ones that have no sporting aspects whatsoever. "Sport" versus "Traditional Martial Arts" doesn't really exist... as Steve has mentioned a few times, by a huge list of criteria, BJJ is a Traditional Martial Art. Which, of course, takes us back to looking at exactly what a traditional martial art is.

A traditional martial art is a martial art that employs an established methodology that matches previously employed methods, typically those employed in previous generations of the art. It has nothing to do with the use of forms/kata, or anything similar (I know of traditional arts that don't use them, I know of modern, eclectic or non-traditional arts that do... all it means is that that is one teaching and training method used by that system). It has nothing to do with sparring or not. It has nothing to do with sporting/competition or not. All it has to do with is whether or not the approach or methodology being employed was established in previous generations.

Traditional non-sporting arts include Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (might revisit this one in a bit...), Araki Ryu Kogusoku, Takemusu (Iwama Ryu) Aikido, and so on.

Traditional sporting arts include Sumo, Shudokan (Tomiki) Aikido, Judo, Kendo... an argument could be made for Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu as it's primary contextual origins are based in duelling methods, and so on.

Traditional arts that are non-sporting, but include forms of competition include Iaido and Kyudo.

Modern non-sporting arts include Systema, RBSD systems (Tony Blauer's SPEAR, Richard Dmitri's Senshido etc), Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (I know, based on traditional stuff, but trust me, it ain't really traditional... it's a modern system), and so on.

Modern sporting systems include TKD, modern Karate forms (not all karate, of course), and so on.

So this idea of "if it's traditional, it's not a sporting system/doesn't spar" is patently false, really. Same with the idea that modern systems are all sporting ones. It just ain't reality. And, more importantly than anything else, none of these forms are better than any other... provided the approach is congruent with the system, and it fits the context and aims of the art, it's perfect. The problem is people thinking that the context of their art is "THE context" for martial arts... which is honestly far more common in the BJJ/MMA/Sporting approach (as they feel their art is "proven" there).

The OP mentions that sporting systems don't often train things like weapon or group defence, or against (or with) many "rule-breaking" tactics and methods. As has been attempted to be explained through the thread, each martial art is a response, or an attempt at addressing, a specific question (or group of questions) in a specific context. In order to begin to compare and contrast them, you have to know both what questions they're attempting to address, and the context in which they're addressing them. I mentioned Katori Shinto Ryu before... this is about as "traditional" as it can get. And they have survived for 600 years as one of the most eminent schools for Japanese warriors throughout their history... but they have a rule which actually forbids competition. Why? Well, according to the teachings of the school, the concept of "shiai" (a match, or competition) is just one character removed from "shiniai", or "a fight to the death"... in other words, the way they train, if you go in for a match, you're risking real injury or death. Bear in mind, this is a system of swordsmanship... get your reaction wrong, and you get badly cut, or, if using bokuto (wooden swords), broken. But really, what it all comes down to is that each art is answering a different question... a sporting art is asking "how do you win in this [particular] sporting context?", whereas a non-sporting art is asking a different question, which might be "what attacks am I likely to face in this [particular] context, such as a bar, or a mugging, or a sexual assault etc?" followed by "what are my best responses to such attacks in such contexts?"

What all that means, of course, is that you simply can't compare the context of BJJ with the context of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, for instance. It's like comparing diets... one might be for weight loss, sure, but another is a detox... and another might be to actually put weight on (for health reasons, or as a body-builder, or similar). If you insist that all diets are to lose weight, how does the body-builders diet fit into your scope? By the same token, you just can't say that "Well, BJJ proved itself in the ring, therefore that's where every other art should prove itself!", as that denies the very reality of different arts for different contexts and questions. Hell, if we genuinely look at the idea of the early UFC's being "NO RULES!" (they weren't, of course... there were quite a number of implied rules, in addition to the scarce codified ones), and I get to use my art, then I'm going to poison my opponents before hand, bribe officials and refs, have hidden weapons on me, and ambush them before the actual event. Sporting? Not a chance! But hey, we don't concern ourselves with such things. If I was following another favourite system of mine, I might wait until the face-off in the middle of the ring, and, before the ref starts anything, suddenly attack without warning (special points for guessing where that tactical approach is from...). Of course, all of this would be against the rules... not that there were any rules, of course... ha!

So, we've established that traditional arts can be sporting, modern systems aren't necessarily sporting at all, and you can't use a single context to test all arts. Cool. We're getting to it, then.

The crux of the OP is asking if we, as martial artists, practitioners of myriad systems and approaches, need to have a range of pre-set techniques against the different attacks likely, or if simply working on "fighting ability" in the ring is enough. And, really, the answer is "either"... provided, of course, that it's not done with your eyes closed.

The first thing I'd say is that the idea of needing a range of pre-set techniques as "answers" to these potential attacks is not the point. The pre-set techniques aren't there for you to memorise, they're there to allow you to ingrain the tactical responses (which are found in the techniques, but are not limited to the techniques). In other words, if you're wanting to learn a martial art (by which I mean wanting to learn a particular systems approach to combative situations, rather than just learn a generic skill of "fighting", or "grappling", or "kicking", or whatever), you have to embrace it's methods. You train in the pre-set techniques as they are teaching you how the art moves, how it works, and so on. You can't just "go for it" and still think it's the same art, really.

When it comes to the idea of "pure fighting ability", to my mind, that best suits the approach of MMA, rather than anything else. Systems such as BJJ really do keep to their own context, and add other methods for engaging in MMA competitions (in other words, BJJ, as with pretty much all other arts, rely dominantly on the "pre-set techniques" approach, not a "pure fighting ability" one). But the real essence of the question is whether or not such an approach is all that's needed for developing the ability to defend yourself. And, really, yeah, it can be. A real encounter is rarely the clean, technical engagement we might want it to be... so the ability and willingness to simply take and give a hit, to not get flustered and flummoxed by someone trying to hurt you, to have the confidence to know that you can dominate (physically) another person really can't be undervalued.

But here's the thing. Is that ability, that mentality, really unique to, or even best achieved by sporting methods? I don't think so, on either count. This attitude is highly prevalent in traditional systems... I'd say even more so that in modern ones, for a variety of reasons, and certainly more than in sporting arts. But that's to be expected, really, when you start to look properly at what the sporting aspect actually is. Here's the secret...

Sports are nothing to do with pressure testing. Sporting methods and sparring are not pressure testing anything.

Sporting methods (sparring, competitive training, competition) are far more about development. Development of the system, as well as the practitioner. What does that mean? Well, the idea of a competitive engagement is that both partners are attempting to apply their techniques while attempting to prevent the other from applying theirs. This naturally leads to better, more effective ways of both application and defence... but isn't really the same as pressure testing. Pressure testing is about purely assessing the ability to apply a defined skill, with typically one side attempting to apply the skill (escape, control, defend, etc) against someone who has a different aim. This is more in line with self defence than sporting contests, of course.

Of course, training in sporting systems and methods can have a lot of cross-over into "street applicable" skill-sets. There's no reason a "sports" martial artist can't do what they do in a self defence situation (within reason, of course... Kendoka might have to make more of an adjustment than a TKD or BJJ practitioner...), but that in no way means that a sporting approach is optimal or geared up for self defence. It really comes back to understanding the question and context the art is addressing... and trying not to equate one arts answers (and questions) with anothers.

 

[Hanzou]

:bs:
Sure BJJ has grown over that time but nowhere near as much as MMA. I have no hesitation in saying, if you want to compete in MMA you need to have some pretty good grappling skills. At present BJJ seems to be among the best places to gain those skills. In the future you will be able to learn the skills you need from the schools specialising in MMA.

Your last statement it total nonsense. It will need someone like Chris Parker to speak on your assertion that Ninjutsu have incorporated BJJ into their training but it sounds like a fairy story to me. As for Krav and Systema, they are neither sport nor TMA. They are constantly evolving and they make no secret of the fact they will take the best of any style if it works within their system. BJJ is a tiny part of Krav and Systema and in no way supports your assertions.

How is the last statement total nonsense when you backed up that statement in your last sentence?

as for. Ninjutsu using Bjj:

http://youtu.be/8rp_AZttnOI
http://youtu.be/4ftxxEDMfOk







And there's plenty more.

 

[ballen0351]

You seem to believe because one person that studies an art does something then that represents the entire art. Just because that guy teaches BJJ at his school doesn't mean Ninjutsu teaches BJJ. It means that guy teaches it. I train Goju but I don't represent Goju as a whole just because I do something doesn't mean Goju does it

 

[RTKDCMB]

as for. Ninjutsu using Bjj:

http://youtu.be/4ftxxEDMfOk

I have seen the Undertaker do that exact same move, maybe the WWE does BJJ as well.

 

[TFP]

Which is why Royce beat most of his opponents in under a minute?

I agree that the art can require patience, but it isn't an art of attrition by design. If anything, the user is capable of adapting the art to their opponent. Some can be dispatched quickly, others may require a bit more time.

Im im sorry but you are just wrong here. GJJ was in fact designed to be an art of attrition. It's one of there main philosophies. There is the positional hierarchy of slowly advancing your position thru grappling and pressure until you get the back and sink in the mata-leão, or use the full guard position as a safe neutral position until your opponent makes a mistake or tires out and then capitalize on the positional hierarchy again or find a submission from the bottom.

 

[Hanzou]

You seem to believe because one person that studies an art does something then that represents the entire art. Just because that guy teaches BJJ at his school doesn't mean Ninjutsu teaches BJJ. It means that guy teaches it. I train Goju but I don't represent Goju as a whole just because I do something doesn't mean Goju does it

It's not just one guy, it's that entire style/branch of Ninjutsu. They even openly admit to using techniques from Bjj.

Its important to note that these aren't the only Ninjas incorporating Bjj into their art.

 

[ballen0351]

It's not just one guy, it's that entire style/branch of Ninjutsu. They even openly admit to using techniques from Bjj.

So when Chris Parker who knows more about ninjutsu then you and I combined tells you its not true he's wrong? Like I said even 50 guys doing something doesn't mean the entire style has added BJJ to the style. If I start teaching the triangle in my Goju class it doesn't mean Goju is now using BJJ

 

[jks9199]

It's not just one guy, it's that entire style/branch of Ninjutsu. They even openly admit to using techniques from Bjj.

I can't address it in detail -- but Akban is to the traditional ninjutsu schools (the x-kans) as Gracie jiujitsu is to Kodokan judo. The folks in Akban have chosen to go their own, very different route from the Bujinkan and many of the other traditional ninjutsu schools.

 

[Hanzou]

Im im sorry but you are just wrong here. GJJ was in fact designed to be an art of attrition. It's one of there main philosophies. There is the positional hierarchy of slowly advancing your position thru grappling and pressure until you get the back and sink in the mata-leão, or use the full guard position as a safe neutral position until your opponent makes a mistake or tires out and then capitalize on the positional hierarchy again or find a submission from the bottom.

Royce Gracie's 30-60 second fights in the first UFC disprove your entire post.

 

[TFP]

But, for the record, as there have been a few claims that Ninjutsu has never "stepped up", I am aware of a few Bujinkan members who have also trained and/or competed in MMA competitions, the third UFC was won by someone with a Ninjutsu background (well, an eclectic one that included Ninjutsu, from Robert Bussey's group), so....

Ninjutsu (as an art) has not, in any way, incorporated BJJ into itself. Some Ninjutsu instructors (coming primarily from the Bujinkan) have incorporated aspects of, or the art itself of, BJJ into their classes. People such as Simon Yeo in the UK train in both, and teach both (often separately, sometimes together) in their schools. Personally, I have trained in BJJ for a little while myself (a Gracie school, for the record... attended a seminar under Royce at one point... guys a great technician, but the blinders shown really put me off), and (in our "street defence" section) we do sometimes deal with ground work... with the dominant aim of getting up off the ground.

Actually Scott Morrison was a black belt under Mike Bussey as part of Robert Bussey's Warrior International fight system. It's a splinter art of ninjutsu, meant to functionalize the traditional martial art for modern hand to hand combat. The interesting thing about this is he fought MMA 3 times, loosing on e via TKO and winning twice via SUBMISSION.
Your boy Steve Jennum also fought in the UFC, winning two fights, one by submission and another by out grappling Harold Howard to gain full mount and win via ground and pound.

so out of 5 UFC victories by Ninjutsu fighters 5 of those wins came via grappling and submissions, chokes and armbars.

thats a pretty long post of yours. I will take the time to read it all and maybe learn something.

 

[K-man]

Originally Posted by Hanzou
I don't see how you could even attempt to make that argument. All you need to do is look at Bjj's growth over the last 20 years, and the number of sport and traditional martial arts around the world that actively incorporate Bjj into their systems. This includes Ninjutsu, Krav, and Systema.

How is the last statement total nonsense when you backed up that statement in your last sentence?

as for. Ninjutsu using Bjj:

http://youtu.be/8rp_AZttnOI
http://youtu.be/4ftxxEDMfOk

And there's plenty more.

just where did the triangle choke originate? Judo, it's parent Jujutso or maybe it was present in Ninjutsu as well. Wherever it came from, there is nothing to suggest it came from BJJ.
What about juji gatame? What are its origins? Arm bars are in many styles especially judo. Where did the ground variant come from?

As to the minimal grappling in Krav and Systema. I'm sure in times past judo guys sat on their opponents' chest also or do you think that was a BJJ invention. Did the guy on the ground stay there until one of the Gracies showed up to teach him how to get away?

As I said, Krav and Systema take from everywhere. They are neither Sport nor TMA (remember, this thread is about Sport and TMA) therefore the fact that they have techniques that may or may not have come from BJJ is irrelevant. Chris has already tried to explain to you the Ninjustsu aspect.

You make a point that may be true, that a number of sport and traditional martial arts around the world are actively incorporating techniques used in Bjj into their training. I would suggest that these may in fact be techniques from elsewhere that BJJ has also incorporated into its system and they may be techniques that have been incorporated into the training of other schools but not into the art itself. When I see the guys at the Jundokan donning rash suits and rolling about on the floor I will acknowledge that you were right. Until then ... !

Hanzou, why don't you take a step back and enter into the spirit of the discussions instead of peddling the incessant BJJ party line? Much of what you say is based on fact, but you clothe it in BJJ spin and it loses credibility. What do they say? A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Perhaps if we all agree that BJJ is the greatest system of self defence the world has ever seen, the Gracies are the greatest martial artists ever produced, and yes every other style should give up what it does best to compete with BJJ guys in the ring, then we can actually get back to normal discussion.

 

[Hanzou]

I can't address it in detail -- but Akban is to the traditional ninjutsu schools (the x-kans) as Gracie jiujitsu is to Kodokan judo. The folks in Akban have chosen to go their own, very different route from the Bujinkan and many of the other traditional ninjutsu schools.

Well that's a pretty strange comparison. In many ways Gjj is more traditional than Judo. Kano's goal was to make Judo an Olympic sport. Helio Gracie's goal was to create a practical fighting system. You're already seeing some division between more traditional Bjj, and more sport/MMA based Bjj. That said, all Bjj schools, Gjj or otherwise encourage competition. I would also say that Judo is far more resistant to change than Bjj. The embrace of No Gi in Bjj vs its virtual non-existence in Judo is a prime example.

 

[TFP]

Royce Gracie's 30-60 second fights in the first UFC disprove your entire post.

Royce Gracie has had one fight that was under a minute and that was 57 seconds vs Ken Shamrock.

now do you care to talk about his 15:00, 15:00, 15:49, 36:00 or 90:00 minute fights? Or how about his fathers 3 hour, 42 minute fight?

listen, just because Royce did well In a quick fashion against some fighters with little experience vs grappling or the gi does not change the philosophy of GJJ. They were not taught to pass up on a submission attempt in order to go slow, of course if your opponent makes a mistake early you capitalize on it, but you don't force it and you don't rush it. GJJ is an extremely patient martial art.

listen it's ok to go "hey GJJ is an extremely effective art that can finish an opponent fast. But I didn't realize the philosophy behind the art was one of methodical patience".

 

[TFP]

just where did the triangle choke originate? Judo, it's parent Jujutso or maybe it was present in Ninjutsu as well. Wherever it came from, there is nothing to suggest it came from BJJ.

For our intents and purposes (meaning modern era martial arts) it came from Judo. Infact the triangle choke wasn't even taught to the Gracie's originally and wasn't added into the art until the 70's when one of the second generation Gracie's (Rolls) students brought an old Judo book into the academy.

in real life it was in invented by a cave man, along with all other ways of twisting, breaking and choking the human body.

 

[Hanzou]

just where did the triangle choke originate? Judo, it's parent Jujutso or maybe it was present in Ninjutsu as well. Wherever it came from, there is nothing to suggest it came from BJJ.
What about juji gatame? What are its origins? Arm bars are in many styles especially judo. Where did the ground variant come from?

What suggests that it is pulled from Bjj is that they openly admit to incorporating Bjj into their syllabus, and the fact that they're calling it a Triangle Choke instead of Sankaku Jime. This also applies to them calling their primary ground position the Guard as opposed to Do-Sae.

As to the minimal grappling in Krav and Systema. I'm sure in times past judo guys sat on their opponents' chest also or do you think that was a BJJ invention. Did the guy on the ground stay there until one of the Gracies showed up to teach him how to get away?

As I said, Krav and Systema take from everywhere. They are neither Sport nor TMA (remember, this thread is about Sport and TMA) therefore the fact that they have techniques that may or may not have come from BJJ is irrelevant. Chris has already tried to explain to you the Ninjustsu aspect.

Again, we're not just talking about movement similarities. We're also talking about these schools using the same names as well as admitting to incorporating Bjj themselves.

 

[Kframe]

So when Chris Parker who knows more about ninjutsu then you and I combined tells you its not true he's wrong? Like I said even 50 guys doing something doesn't mean the entire style has added BJJ to the style. If I start teaching the triangle in my Goju class it doesn't mean Goju is now using BJJ

I think that the AKBAN is a separate organization, that uses bujinkan techniques but because they have extra stuff they created there own org. From my understanding the entire AKBAN organization teaches bjj techniques. I have seen some of there sparring videos and they often devolve into ground grappling. Some of them are quite good.