Sport And TMA....Again

[ballen0351]

I guess we'll have to just agree that our definitions of "earth shattering" are different. I look at the growth and proliferation of BJJ and it seems pretty astounding to me. I've seen the local tournaments around here grow from 40 to 50 competitors in a 1 day tournament to almost 700 competitors over two days. The number of schools just 7 to 8 years ago in the area was less than 10. Now, there have to be about 40 or 50. Some are big, some are little, but even the crappy ones are still pretty good.

And, driving around, I'd say at least half of the traditional schools also advertise BJJ. Whether this is a young brown or black belt looking to start his own school who is leasing mat space, or an instructor who has decided to cross train, I don't know. Both are very common. But, it's getting rare to see "TKD" and very common to see "Kim's TKD and BJJ."

As is often the case, though, this is anecdotal. I don't think there is any reliable statistical information available. Just my impressions.

I agree with you. I dont deny the exponential growth of BJJ. That's not hard when you go from zero schools to 1000. My opinion of earth changing is like Walmart changed the landscape of retail and drove its competition out of business. The addition of BJJ to other schools is a win win for both. So in that regard yes it has changed Martial arts. But when I see claims like The Gracie's challenged the world and won and showed they are superior it puts me on the defensive because that's nonsense so then I see BJJ changed the face of Martial arts I revert back the default "that's nonsense". Which isn't the case

 

[Hanzou]

This vid made me LoL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L6uAWRGpe0#t=35

I do appreciate the Systema guy posting it up, even if things didn't go his way. The boxing fellow was also very kind. However, the video is a bit awkward.

 

[ballen0351]

This vid made me LoL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L6uAWRGpe0#t=35

I do appreciate the Systema guy posting it up, even if things didn't go his way. The boxing fellow was also very kind. However, the video is a bit awkward.

So you don't understand or like systema I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic.

 

[TFP]

A couple vids of BJJ used in street fights...just for fun

nerdy white kid stops guy from hitting a women.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6V97Pnljj7I

BJJ/MMA vs traditional martial artist (this one kinda sucks cause this guy has spent most likely a lifetime studying an art that doesn't work)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JdasNOFDNrM

when believing in magic goes wrong
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

Ninjitsu vs MMA
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xkvWyAb7TSw

BJJ used in self defense vs crazy man,
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GJX9QnrZtfc

Guy breaks mans arm in street fight
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eKB-BEtVR8g

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The main offensive technique I train and teach would be the elbow strike. That is the point of the elbow. The targets are normally the ribs under the arm, the side of the head and the spinal cord. Please tell me where I can test the effectiveness of that strike in competition. Probably the second most important strike I teach is the forearm strike to the back of the neck or side of the neck and jaw. We now start coming into the more legal techniques such as knees, knife hand and hammer fist. Punching is not a great part of what we do but in competition I would have to rely on it. I can believe those first techniques are effective, I don't have to test them on people. I can test them against pads or bags.

So you talk of testing your art. I would be only testing part of my art and I don't feel the need to do that.
:asian:

Agree! This is a good question. How do you test your skill that cannot be tested in the sport environment?

IMO, you can't test everything that you want to train. This is why we need heavy bag, throwing dummy, ... Some teachers would ask their students to

- go into the woods,
- hold on a tree branch,
- spin and drop the body, and
- use the upper arm to break that tree branch.

After you have broken 1000 tree branches this way, you have develop some technique that you can use to break someone's arm if needed.

Some skill just cannot be developed on your training partner. Here is another example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ygDeFx1y9E&feature=youtu.be

 

[TFP]

To be fair......... MMA and BJJ guys getting beat up.

guys trains and fought MMA decides to sucker punch at bar.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uj3DTajPJPk

not really an MMA fighter, but funny the big man says "this ain't the MMA"
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vDDVTUEz_n4

Krav Maga fighter beats up BJJ fighter ( but doesn't count cause it's in a "sport cage with rules)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ONrE-jbBGY0

Legit MMA Brazilian fighter gets beat up for hitting on wrong girl
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HxFbpa9c8gg

Super Hero and MMA fighter Phoenix Jones beats up bully
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YAUVUWQ0H3k

 

[Hanzou]

So you don't understand or like systema I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic.

The topic is sport vs TMA. The vid shows a sport punch versus a punch based on traditional principles.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Deleted Post....I was in error...sorry

 

[TFP]

This vid made me LoL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L6uAWRGpe0#t=35

I do appreciate the Systema guy posting it up, even if things didn't go his way. The boxing fellow was also very kind. However, the video is a bit awkward.

not it sure that is really a "Systema" guy, but more a martial artist using a Systema style punch. That is Dan "The Wolfman". Who is an MMA fighter who uses less traditional MMA methods. He started his stand up training in TKD but could of done a bit of Systema.

he is mostly known for being a sub grappling/Catch Wrestler.

 

[TFP]

Now I have two martial arts to look up. Goju and Systema

 

[Kframe]

TFP that video of the ninjutsu guy is disheartening.. Christ he didn't even look like he trained. No kamae, no good foot work, no distance control.

 

[TFP]

TFP that video of the ninjutsu guy is disheartening.. Christ he didn't even look like he trained. No kamae, no good foot work, no distance control.

Yeah, I almost didn't put that one in there.

 

[K-man]

You keep bringing up this "rules and sporting contest" as your argument....... And you keep ignoring the fact that the Gracie Challenges, early Vale Tudo and early UFC's HAD NO RULES!!!!!!!!!!

GJJ was proven in a ruleless combat situation.

Nobody is arguing with that. The other fighters proved their styles too in those early fights. The rule changes affected the other styles more than they affected BJJ.

 

[Kframe]

Whats stupid about that moron was, I have only done BBT for a very short while and I know that there is a low kick defense in the Kata I have done. That video is a perfect example of what happens if you don't pressure test your self in some fashion. Idiot backed him self into a wall didn't have his guard up, only moving back wards. It honestly looked like a very low level practitioner. I don't think it would have mattered what art he was. He was clearly not prepared for the pressure that was being put forth.

 

[MJS]

They are just different methods and philosophies of training. I have seen an MMA video or two showing knife defences on the great and powerful YouTube. Since most MMA, as far as I am aware of, is geared towards competition in the ring or cage there is not as much need for weapons training or multiple attackers, unless they want to do it for the self defence aspects. As for Kata TMA's tend to think a little more long term so doing Kata allows them to refine their technique over time and learn how to move and work on their stances. I think the essential difference is that a self defence oriented TMA tend to operate on the principle that someone attacks, you defend, eliminate the threat quickly and move on. MMA and other sport oriented martial arts tend to operate on the principle that the fights are more continuous and drawn out, 5x5 minute rounds, wear down your opponent, go the distance, slowly improve your position and the like therefore Kata is not as useful to them.

Well, this was the purpose of this thread...just what you said in this post. While everyone's mileage will vary, I've never seen any BJJ schools in my area that covered what you mentioned. Are they out there? I'm sure they are. I do feel that MMA training is useful when it comes to the stamina aspect, however, my goal is to stop the threat as quick as possible, not draw it out, as you mentioned with the rounds.

 

[MJS]

It was a prediction, not a dismissal of the argument. I just knew what was coming next. When you've seen the "TMA vs MMA/Sport-fighter" argument played out so many times, you start to know how it's going to unfold. Same with the "Grappling vs. Striking" thread over in the General MA Talk section. You know that eventually someone is going to claim the EMFG's are sovereign against chokes and arm-bars, that a striker will simply one-shot KO a grappler on a shoot, that "going to the ground" is suicidal because of all the rocks, broken glass, HIV infected needles and lava, and that if a grappler takes his opponent down the other guy's friends will start kicking him.

These arguments follow utterly predictable patterns. In this thread "boxers break their hands" was next on the road-map.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Oh I know. I was simply posting that in case someone doubted that fact.

 

[MJS]

Sometime you just don't have any choice. When you run a commercial school, different people may walk into your school and challenge you. Some may challenge you in boxing rules (punch only), some may challenge you in MT rules (kick + punch), some may challenge you in Judo rules (wrestling only). If you take those challenges as opportunities to test your own skill against other styles, you will be happy to accept those challenges.

Is that "self defense"? To defend you commercial school from closing down is "self defense" by my definition.

Out of curiosity, how often do you think these things happen? Personally, I'd guess that some places may not give a rats *** about a challenge match, but that's just my opinion. Furthermore, I'm more interested in challenging myself, rather than walking into a school. Earlier, I gave examples of what I do to 'test' myself.

 

[MJS]

Why do I get the feeling this thread is going to end up just like that other thread that got closed by staff a few weeks ago?

Oh wait. It already is.


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

Well, unfortunately, you're right. Despite numerous nudges, and blunt posts, to get back on track, well.....

However, despite all things considered, I'm surprised things are as civil as they are. LOL.

 

[MJS]

So who's more likely to break their hand? A karateka, or a boxer?

My money's on the Karateka. The boxer gets constant hand conditioning either through the heavy bag, or sparring. They get added points since their art forces/teaches them to take punches.

Yet another benefit of competition and sport fighting.

I would say it would depend on the type of Karate. My teacher has done years of various methods of hand conditioning. We spar on a regular basis, as well as hit the heavy bag. Watch any Kyokushin fight on YT, and you'll see many people taking shots.

 

[K-man]

I don't see how you could even attempt to make that argument. All you need to do is look at Bjj's growth over the last 20 years, and the number of sport and traditional martial arts around the world that actively incorporate Bjj into their systems. This includes Ninjutsu, Krav, and Systema.

:bs:
Sure BJJ has grown over that time but nowhere near as much as MMA. I have no hesitation in saying, if you want to compete in MMA you need to have some pretty good grappling skills. At present BJJ seems to be among the best places to gain those skills. In the future you will be able to learn the skills you need from the schools specialising in MMA.

Your last statement it total nonsense. It will need someone like Chris Parker to speak on your assertion that Ninjutsu have incorporated BJJ into their training but it sounds like a fairy story to me. As for Krav and Systema, they are neither sport nor TMA. They are constantly evolving and they make no secret of the fact they will take the best of any style if it works within their system. BJJ is a tiny part of Krav and Systema and in no way supports your assertions.