Sport And TMA....Again

[ballen0351]

The topic is sport vs TMA. The vid shows a sport punch versus a punch based on traditional principles.

So which one is which? Which one is the TMA?

 

[MJS]

I know you addressed his to Steve but I'd like to answer too.
I think MMA fighters progress faster than most TMAs do and learn useable skills quicker on average. However, I think that TMA tend to have much more depth and have greater skills in the long run after many years of training. I think the sporting approach makes you very good at basic skills, which honestly is all most people need to defend themselves, but if you don't expand on it and go deeper through the proper use of things like kata or exploring those principles in other setting then at some point you stop growing and you can only work to maintain what you already have; and as one ages I think that would be a losing battle.

I agree. MMA, IMO, takes the best from certain areas, and drills the hell out of it. I suppose the same could be done with TMA as well. If you stripped out certain things, ie: kata, and doing kicks/punches in the air, and replaced that with more sparring, more bag work, etc, you could reach the same goals. And no, I'm not suggesting that all TMA does this.

 

[MJS]

Ill just throw in that there are more broken hands in MMA than you might expect with their wraps and gloves. Sorta makes me think, anyway.

Ken Shamrock and Keith Hackney are 2 that come to mind. Both injured their hands in the UFC and both were unable to continue.

 

[MJS]

After 18 pages...any chance of getting back to the OP?

Probably not.

 

[MJS]

After Royce dominated the first few UFCs, fighters realized that in order to have a chance they needed to learn ground fighting. That's why everyone ends up on the floor grappling, because if you don't at least have a working knowledge of Bjj, you're going to get subbed or choked.

Why weren't there a lot of Bjj fighters in early UFC? Because no one in the states was really learning Bjj, and it took many years for the art to get dispersed to the point it has now. Relson Gracie for example was training people out of a garage in Honolulu around the time of the first UFC, and working a job in construction to help sustain himself and his family. Today, he has hundreds of schools throughout the United States. After Bjj took off, other Brazilian masters came up from Brazil to teach in the U.S. Now there's a Bjj school in just about every state.



Er... The Gracies won those early UFC tournaments, and they usually won them within a matter of minutes, so how were the rules unfavorable to Bjj? The Gracies actually left the UFC when new stricter rules were put into place.

Also how exactly do the rules tie RBSD guys up, but not MT, Boxing, Bjj, and other arts? Are RBSD folks incapable of adapting their tools?

The most interesting thing about the Royce vs Kimo fight is that Kimo was a hell of a lot bigger than Gracie at the time, and had studied grappling in order to counter Bjj.

Royce still subbed him.

Just to comment on a few things.

1) You are correct. Royce dominated the sport and basically forced people to run out and learn the ground game. Of course, once that happened, we also saw people focus a lot on striking as well. Once that happened, we saw a decline in the Gracie winning streak. Case in point...after a good 30min, boring *** cuddle match, Shamrock and Gracie ended up a draw in UFC 5, I believe.

2) The Gracies left mainly due to the change in the time. Early UFC events had no time limit, and once that was added in, ie: what we see now, they felt that it took away from their art. So basically that translates to me, that they aren't comfortable being able to finish someone within a 5min round. Like I said, looking at early UFC's, we saw a lot of fights, even the ones without Royce, going past the time you see now.

3) Even though he beat Kimo, Kimo still prevented Royce from being able to continue. We saw Royce enter the ring for his next match, and the towel was tossed in. All that aside though, I'd say that Kimo was the first opponent that Royce fought, that actually gave him a run for his money.

 

[MJS]

Actually Kimo had no martial arts training at all other than a bit of back yard brawling.

I'd say the same thing for Tank as well, although I believe he did say he had a wrestling background.

 

[MJS]

What is this thread "really about"? It's title centers around TMA and sport competition but it's in the general "self defense" forum

:burp:

I posted it in this section for a specific reason, as outlined in my OP. If some fail to have read the OP, or just couldn't understand the point I was making, well, I don't know what to say. This thread has been off the track for so long now, I doubt it'll get back. Regardless, there are some posts that are very relevant to my OP.

 

[MJS]

Um, he had a background in wrestling,

He also had a significant weight advantage over Gracie.

So? If their claims of being a superior art hold true, then it shouldn't have mattered if his opponents were the same size, lighter or heavier.

 

[MJS]

And Teila Tuli had a significant weight advantage over Gerard Gordeau (a striker) who was beaten by him with kicks and punches so not really much of a point there.

Exactly! And Keith Hackney was outweighed by Emmanuel Yarborough, yet Keith still won his fight.

 

[MJS]

Oh and as far as the original question goes, IMO it's a double edged sword.

one hand, sport martial arts at least have a go with live resistance which IMO makes them better. But as you turn it into a "sport"'people look for ways to "win" the game and this May take away from what really works in a real life fight.

sport BJJ is going to be the watering g down of Jiu-Jitsu as a self defense martial art. IMO.

Thanks for your feedback. I believe that both have things the other can benefit from.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Out of curiosity, how often do you think these things happen? Personally, I'd guess that some places may not give a rats *** about a challenge match, but that's just my opinion. Furthermore, I'm more interested in challenging myself, rather than walking into a school. Earlier, I gave examples of what I do to 'test' myself.

The challenge fight had happened since the ancient time. If we look at this from the positive side, it gives us an excellent opportunity to test our skill against other systems. As long as both parties agree with the rule sets (punching only, punching + kicking only, wrestling only, or everything go), it can be fun.

I don't mind face to face challenge, but I hate people attack by surprise. Sometime people pretend to be friendly and when he talked to you, he would suddenly shoot at your legs, or give you a bear hug from behind.

 

[MJS]

For some reason you can't seem to grasp that most people don't need their martial art, self defense system or whatever legitimized at all........If you study kung fu your entire life and never lay a finger on another human being are you somehow less of a martial artist? I don't think so......I don't work the door or bounce anymore but I do still work large events and personal security. I hope I never have to lay a hand on another person the rest of my life. I respect UFC guys for the athletes they are and I enjoy watching them compete for pennies while Dana White gets rich but it's nothing more to me than entertainment.

True. I said this earlier but it's worth saying again. I do think that competing has good benefits, but IMO, it's not necessary as long as you're testing yourself in some way. The older people get, the more injuries that people get over the years...some just lose the desire to compete. I fought my first Kyokushin tournament last year. Despite losing, I still had a blast and gained a bunch of experience from it. I intend on fighting again next year. How much longer will I do this? Don't know, but it probably won't be forever..lol.

 

[MJS]

I don't know that's not my style. I would assume if it were my style and I have faith in my style then it works. Why do I need to prove to you anything about my style and why do you care what or how I train?

AMEN! I gotta rep you for this one!!! I've said the same thing as well. Funny how some of my training partners probably train in arts that are looked down upon by others, (not that they care), yet interestingly enough, said people have used those skills in the real world and are still walking around to tell the story.

I've got no desire to police the arts. I care about how *I* train. If someone wants to look down at what I do, that's fine.

 

[MJS]

The topic is sport vs TMA. The vid shows a sport punch versus a punch based on traditional principles.

Umm...is that all you got from my OP? My point of this thread, was to discuss whether or not all that is needed is pure fighting skill, rather than all of the stuff that is typically found in TMAs. The thread wasn't to once again, have a dick waving contest, over which Gracie is best, how good BJJ is, etc, etc, etc. etc

 

[MJS]

The challenge fight had happened since the ancient time. If we look at this from the positive side, it gives us an excellent opportunity to test our skill against other systems. As long as both parties agree with the rule sets (punching only, punching + kicking only, wrestling only, or everything go), it can be fun.

I don't mind face to face challenge, but I hate people attack by surprise. Sometime people pretend to be friendly and when he talked to you, he would suddenly shoot at your legs, or give you a bear hug from behind.

Oh sure, challenge fights have been going on for years. I was asking in your opinion, whether you thought that they still existed today. ie: 4 guys from the local BJJ/MMA club, going into the local TKD dojo, and calling the teacher and his students out.

Like I've said already...I enjoy competition, but frankly, I don't eat, breath and sleep it. I went to a MMA event at the casino here in CT a few weeks ago. I had a blast. Saw some great fights, both of which were finished by sub and strikes. IMO, if someone doesn't wish to compete, they should at least pressure test their stuff in/out of the dojo, with a partner. I like doing that, as it's a great way to see what's going to really work when the heat is on, and what you can do to improve on the things that may not. But for me, I don't walk into the local (insert art) dojo, and call anyone out. I need to work, and don't want to be arrested for being a dick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Oh sure, challenge fights have been going on for years. I was asking in your opinion, whether you thought that they still existed today. ie: 4 guys from the local BJJ/MMA club, going into the local TKD dojo, and calling the teacher and his students out.

Like I've said already...I enjoy competition, but frankly, I don't eat, breath and sleep it. I went to a MMA event at the casino here in CT a few weeks ago. I had a blast. Saw some great fights, both of which were finished by sub and strikes. IMO, if someone doesn't wish to compete, they should at least pressure test their stuff in/out of the dojo, with a partner. I like doing that, as it's a great way to see what's going to really work when the heat is on, and what you can do to improve on the things that may not. But for me, I don't walk into the local (insert art) dojo, and call anyone out. I need to work, and don't want to be arrested for being a dick.

IMO, it doesn't happen as much today as it was 20 years ago. I still remember when I taught UT Austin Kung Fu informal class, one day I just started my class, a guy walked into my classroom. He was very polite, bowed to me, and said, "May I spar with you". It was in front of my 50 students and also my teacher was there too. There was no way that I would (or could) turn down that challenge.

 

[Steve]

:bs:
Sure BJJ has grown over that time but nowhere near as much as MMA. I have no hesitation in saying, if you want to compete in MMA you need to have some pretty good grappling skills. At present BJJ seems to be among the best places to gain those skills. In the future you will be able to learn the skills you need from the schools specialising in MMA.

Your last statement it total nonsense. It will need someone like Chris Parker to speak on your assertion that Ninjutsu have incorporated BJJ into their training but it sounds like a fairy story to me. As for Krav and Systema, they are neither sport nor TMA. They are constantly evolving and they make no secret of the fact they will take the best of any style if it works within their system. BJJ is a tiny part of Krav and Systema and in no way supports your assertions.

Frankly, from a strictly business perspective, this would be tough to do. BJJ is a traditional style that can appeal to many, many different kinds of people. While there are some strict MMA gyms, they almost all offer classes in one discipline or the other. There are three schools affiliated with my main instructor. One is where any of our guys who REALLY want to make a go of MMA end up, and that's run by a former UFC fighter and BJJ black belt. While he definitely has the MMA thing covered, he also teaches both Gi and No-Gi BJJ classes, conditioning classes and I think he also offers Wrestling and Boxing. I also think his wife offers yoga classes, as well.

Thing is, there are sharks and dolphins in this world. Not everyone is a shark. Not everyone has the warrior gene. A good school will cater to one or the other. A GREAT school will cater to both.

 

[TFP]

Just to comment on a few things.

1) You are correct. Royce dominated the sport and basically forced people to run out and learn the ground game. Of course, once that happened, we also saw people focus a lot on striking as well. Once that happened, we saw a decline in the Gracie winning streak. Case in point...after a good 30min, boring *** cuddle match, Shamrock and Gracie ended up a draw in UFC 5, I believe.

2) The Gracies left mainly due to the change in the time. Early UFC events had no time limit, and once that was added in, ie: what we see now, they felt that it took away from their art. So basically that translates to me, that they aren't comfortable being able to finish someone within a 5min round. Like I said, looking at early UFC's, we saw a lot of fights, even the ones without Royce, going past the time you see now.

3) Even though he beat Kimo, Kimo still prevented Royce from being able to continue. We saw Royce enter the ring for his next match, and the towel was tossed in. All that aside though, I'd say that Kimo was the first opponent that Royce fought, that actually gave him a run for his money.

Make is no mistake about it, GJJ was and is an art about attrition. It's a patient art that is in absolutely no hurry to finish the fight.

oh and Keith Hackney was giving Royce a bit of trouble in there early fight.

 

[K-man]

Frankly, from a strictly business perspective, this would be tough to do. BJJ is a traditional style that can appeal to many, many different kinds of people. While there are some strict MMA gyms, they almost all offer classes in one discipline or the other. There are three schools affiliated with my main instructor. One is where any of our guys who REALLY want to make a go of MMA end up, and that's run by a former UFC fighter and BJJ black belt. While he definitely has the MMA thing covered, he also teaches both Gi and No-Gi BJJ classes, conditioning classes and I think he also offers Wrestling and Boxing. I also think his wife offers yoga classes, as well.

Thing is, there are sharks and dolphins in this world. Not everyone is a shark. Not everyone has the warrior gene. A good school will cater to one or the other. A GREAT school will cater to both.

Not quite sure what you are saying here. I was responding to Hanzou 's claim firstly that BJJ was the greatest thing since sliced bread and that BJJ was great because other styles are using its techniques. In my local area two BJJ schools have recently closed, one in the dojo I train where the guy left owing back rent. Frankly BJJ has no great following here although guys promoting MMA are doing all right. I like BJJ and don't doubt its effectiveness, but in the end it is just another martial art. Why do we have to have every discussion hijacked to this stupid BJJ is the greatest mantra? What I would love to discuss is how sport has affected TMAs without more than a passing mention of BJJ when it is appropriate. This is from memory the third thread that the rabbit has taken down his burrow.
:asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

Do you even know what my point is? I was talking about the style vs style challenges the Gracie's put out and fought vs other styles, pre MMA.

Just out of interest can you list those styles that were taking part in thos pre MMA Gracie challenges?