Sport And TMA....Again

[TFP]

[QUote;16117]Of co :fanboy: just a fanboy. The way I see it is the Gracie's put out a loud and boisterous challenge to everyone martial artist that GJJ was better than there art and no one was able to use there combat art to prove otherwise.

The following men beat a Gracie

Masahiko Kimura
Frank Shamrock
Melvin Manhoef
Akihiro Gono
Allan Goes
Kazuhiro Nakamura
Takanori Gomi
B.J. Penn
Carlos Newton
Shungo Oyama
Dan Henderson

Kiyoshi Tamura
Dustin Hezelett
Shungo Oyama
B.J. Penn
Matt Hughes

Harold Howard.<---- Goju black belt
Hideo Tokoro
Norifumi Yakamoto
Genki Sudo

Tokimitsu Ishizawa
Kazushi Sakuraba AKA the Gracie Hunter




At that time there were still legends of Okinawian karate still alive and well during yhe early parts of this did any Gracie take a trip to the Island and lay down this challenge to them? You want to prove something go to the source of the art.[/QUOTE]

Almost every name on that list is from the modern MMA world, not style vs style. Of course your guy Harold had a real tough, we'll earned victory over Royce Gracie. "If you're coming on......then come on!!!"

 

[TFP]

No rules????? You mean you could kill someone? There was no one to break up the fight? Wow. You watched a different event than I did.

I still maintain that there is philosophically no difference between the UFC and the NFL. Same concept, different sport. By way of comparison, the early professional footballers had no rules either....did that mean that it wasn't a sport?

YMMV

Mike

I'm not sure how else to say it except that there were literally no rules. The ref was not to interfere unless the corner thru in the towel, a fighter gave up or was knocked unconcious. If that is what you are grasping at as "rules" than you are being childish.

 

[jks9199]

Thats awesome! I'm not trying to say other martial arts are not effective, I'm just weary of arts that don't have real world applicability. Why would you care less if I like Goju after looking it up?

How are you assessing "real world applicability?" Just about every art out there has someone who has actually used it.

 

[ballen0351]

Almost every name on that list is from the modern MMA world, not style vs style. Of course your guy Harold had a real tough, we'll earned victory over Royce Gracie. "If you're coming on......then come on!!!"

Oh ok so we are not allowed to count losses if the lose doesn't fit your point? Yeah ok.

 

[TFP]

Oh ok so we are not allowed to count looses if the lose doesn't fit your point? Yeah ok.

Do you even know what my point is? I was talking about the style vs style challenges the Gracie's put out and fought vs other styles, pre MMA.


im not saying the Gracie's are undefeated in fighting or they are the best fighters in the world. I was talking about style vs style.

so how about that Goju BB Harold Howard's defeat of Royce Gracie? Pretty impressive huh?

 

[ballen0351]

I don't see how you could even attempt to make that argument. All you need to do is look at Bjj's growth over the last 20 years, and the number of sport and traditional martial arts around the world that actively incorporate Bjj into their systems. This includes Ninjutsu, Krav, and Systema.

And its still not to the lvl of Some other arts that have been world wide for decades with millions of followers all over the globe. Its easy to show huge "growth". When you start from the bottom of the pack.

One of the most lucrative jobs in MA today is to be a Bjj black belt. My brother is a purple belt and he gets constant offers to teach at Universities, schools, MMA gyms, and traditional MA schools.

Depends on where you live. The BJJ/mma school that opens where I live went out of business in less than 6 months. The TMA dojos here have been going for years.

 

[ballen0351]

Do you even know what my point is? I was talking about the style vs style challenges the Gracie's put out and fought vs other styles, pre MMA.

No I don't know your point because you keep changing it. And again how do you go art vs art? I saw a clip of some Krav guy beating a BJJ guy on you tube so does that mean Krav art is superior to BJJ or does it mean that BJJ guy sucked at his sport. An art can't win or loose. Its an impossible comparison to many other variables.

im not saying the Gracie's are undefeated in fighting or they are the best fighters in the world. I was talking about style vs style.

Gracie's were not even the best grapplers in the world I'd say that goes to "the Gracie hunter". They were just the best salesman

so how about that Goju BB Harold Howard's defeat of Royce Gracie? Pretty impressive huh?

i dont know ive never seen the fight i googled who defeates Gracies and that was the list. I don't watch UFC and never even heard of Gracie Challenge until this thread. So did he not beat them? I really don't know I be never heard of most people on that list.

 

[Hanzou]

And its still not to the lvl of Some other arts that have been world wide for decades with millions of followers all over the globe. Its easy to show huge "growth". When you start from the bottom of the pack.

Well that was because it was a very obscure martial art until about 20 years ago. Even after coming out of obscurity, it took a few years for it to spread to other places.

The point though is that Bjj changed modern MA. No one can argue that.

Depends on where you live.

I can agree with this.

 

[Steve]

Never said that it did! The point is that the situations are different and it's a false equivalency. The only way to ever know is to be in a real life or death encounter!

Mike

Thanks, Mike. It's like the stereotypes where frumpy girls with with glasses must be smart and busty blondes must be dumb. It's just possible that the office babe is not just prettier. She might also be smarter and more competent.

In the same way, it's possible to train in a crappy style that is equally ill suited for sport or self defense. Just as it's possible to train in a style that is equally well suited for sport AND self defense.

It really sounded as though, by omission, you were creating your own false equivalency. I'm glad we cleared it up.

 

[Steve]

That's your opinion my friend. They sure did a great job selling DVDs and Gracie brand Gis though I'll give them that.

Gracie brand gis?

 

[ballen0351]

Gracie brand gis?

Yeah when you train at a Gracie school you have to use a Gracie approved GI which just so happens to have their symbol all over it.

 

[Steve]

No they didn't shake up the traditional martial arts world. They shook up the sports world and not even a big part of the sports world just that small part. Traditional Goju is bigger and more wide spread then ever. Organizations like the IOGKF and Jundokan are world wide with millions of members. Gracie's had no effect on them. TKD and Judo are still Olympic sports with millions of followers world wide. I'm glad you like your sport hell I train BJJ a few times a month I like it. I think its fun and a great workout. But your letting your fandom of your sport cloud your objectiveness. It had a huge impact on YOUR world because you enjoy it. It has no effect on MY world at all.

Ballen, come on. They shook up the martial arts world. Wing Chun suddenly had "anti-grappling." Many schools started teaching "MMA" or BJJ in addition to their core art. Instructors began taking seminars. The tactics and techniques of BJJ were folded into just about ever style out there, in some manner or another. For good or bad, BJJ has had a significant impact upon the landscape of martial arts over the last 25 years.

 

[ballen0351]

http://secure.gracieacademy.com/categories/gis_and_patches/

Gracie brand gis?

 

[Steve]

Yeah when you train at a Gracie school you have to use a Gracie approved GI which just so happens to have their symbol all over it.

Only one I'm aware of that does this is Gracie Barra, and that's relatively recent (within the last few years.) I started training kind of on the front edge of the boutique gi market. When i started, it was pretty much Vulkan, Koral, Atama and HCK. Gameness made a splash with the "platinum weave" gis, and then with the Gameness Pearl. That was the gi that changed everything. Now, it's like everyone and their brother has a custom gi line.

Gracie Barra is the most "TMA" like organization within BJJ.

 

[ballen0351]

Ballen, come on. They shook up the martial arts world. Wing Chun suddenly had "anti-grappling." Many schools started teaching "MMA" or BJJ in addition to their core art. Instructors began taking seminars. The tactics and techniques of BJJ were folded into just about ever style out there, in some manner or another. For good or bad, BJJ has had a significant impact upon the landscape of martial arts over the last 25 years.

Some schools added it but it's not as WIDE an impact as the BJJ community likes to claim. We didn't add any BJJ to our schools. Sure some schools did as a money thing to cash in on the latest fad in Martial Arts. You guys act like the martial arts community was turned on its head or something. That's just not the case. It had an impact just not earth shattering

 

[Steve]

Do you even know what my point is? I was talking about the style vs style challenges the Gracie's put out and fought vs other styles, pre MMA.


im not saying the Gracie's are undefeated in fighting or they are the best fighters in the world. I was talking about style vs style.

so how about that Goju BB Harold Howard's defeat of Royce Gracie? Pretty impressive huh?

Just to throw out there, that the guys who have beaten the gracies are also very good grapplers. Even guys within MMA who made a career out of striking, like Lyoto Machida and Chuck Liddell are terrific grapplers.

 

[ballen0351]

Only one I'm aware of that does this is Gracie Barra, and that's relatively recent (within the last few years.) I started training kind of on the front edge of the boutique gi market. When i started, it was pretty much Vulkan, Koral, Atama and HCK. Gameness made a splash with the "platinum weave" gis, and then with the Gameness Pearl. That was the gi that changed everything. Now, it's like everyone and their brother has a custom gi line.

Gracie Barra is the most "TMA" like organization within BJJ.

I'm.not knocking it. Again its brilliant marketing. If I had afamous nAme I'd cash in too

 

[ballen0351]

Like I said BJJ is good you get no argument from me about it. After last night seeing that kid I'm even more impressed at how it can be used standing up. Kid got caught with a sucker punch to the side of the head that could happen to anyone. I can now see I had underestimated the usefulness of BJJ in a street fight if using it as he did to stay on his feet like that.

 

[Steve]

Some schools added it but it's not as WIDE an impact as the BJJ community likes to claim. We didn't add any BJJ to our schools. Sure some schools did as a money thing to cash in on the latest fad in Martial Arts. You guys act like the martial arts community was turned on its head or something. That's just not the case. It had an impact just not earth shattering

I guess we'll have to just agree that our definitions of "earth shattering" are different. I look at the growth and proliferation of BJJ and it seems pretty astounding to me. I've seen the local tournaments around here grow from 40 to 50 competitors in a 1 day tournament to almost 700 competitors over two days. The number of schools just 7 to 8 years ago in the area was less than 10. Now, there have to be about 40 or 50. Some are big, some are little, but even the crappy ones are still pretty good.

And, driving around, I'd say at least half of the traditional schools also advertise BJJ. Whether this is a young brown or black belt looking to start his own school who is leasing mat space, or an instructor who has decided to cross train, I don't know. Both are very common. But, it's getting rare to see "TKD" and very common to see "Kim's TKD and BJJ."

As is often the case, though, this is anecdotal. I don't think there is any reliable statistical information available. Just my impressions.

 

[K-man]

this is a very fair question and a tough one to answer, but I have on. Umerous occasions went live with elbow strikes using elbow pads. Of course you can take out some of the more damaging strikes while practicing your art. (What is your art?). But I disagrees that you don't need to test the rest. How do you plan on getting into position for these strikes? And what are you going to do when these strikes don't finish your opponent/attacker?

I would question an art that is ineffective if one or two moves are taken out then it becomes ineffective.

My main art is Goju but I have also been training Aikido for the past eight years. Krav and Systema are also friends of mine.

i tested my my kumite skills for years in a previous life and to be honest, it didn't do it for me. So how do I get into position. Easy, I just wait for the grappler to move in. Same for the striker. Don't imagine for one second we don't test that. Now you can tell me that I won't be able to do that against the likes of Royce Gracie or Mike Tyson but the chances of that happening are about one in 100 billion. I'm talking about your average thug.

Traditional Goju stemmed from Okinawan wrestling. I want to be hands on grappling. I just don't believe I need to go to the ground. If I do, I believe I have sufficient skill to regain my feet and I don't need to test that against professional MMA fighters.

Taking the teeth out of a tiger leaves a toothless tiger. Taking the main weapons out of a fighting art leaves it toothless too. Don't forget, we drill those techniques in our bunkai to make them spontaneous. If you use things in isolation you can take them out. It's a bit like leaving the fruit out of a fruit cake. You still have a cake but it is not what it should be.
:asian: