Sport And TMA....Again

[ballen0351]

I guess my issue is in the "trying out and seeing what works". Because I feel if you arnt really trying it out, then it's just theory. Who is the toughest Goju fighter you know of? Is there a place that Goju artists can really test there skills? Or is it been so long since the art has truly been tested.

i don't know a lot. (Anything) about Goju but I will look it up for sure!

Well I know I'm a cop for almost 15 years and have used it and it works for me. I know of other cops that have used it and it works for them. There are 7 cops just in my dojo. I know of a man that used a bunkai from one of our kata to disarm a man with a knife at his hospital security guard job. I know an undercover NYPD narc detective that used it to disarm a thug that had a gun that was trying to rob him and it worked. These are all REAL world not on a padded mat in a nice one on one cell with a ref to keep you safe. It is what it is. I have nothing to prove I could care less if you like Goju or think it works. The only ones I see trying to prove how tough their sport is would be you guys.

 

[TFP]

Of course. Goes back to natural ability and some times some guys are just better no matter what. But to try to say well that proves BJJ is the best and "blew the doors off". Well that's your opinion. Its hardly dominating by itself anymore.

So the Gracie's Royce (170lbs) Royler (145lbs) Renzo (155lbs) Rickson (185lbs), Carlson (140lbs) George (130 lbs) Helio (150 lbs) all these guys had better "natural ability" than other guys in martial arts?!?!?!?

come on man! GJJ has a loooooong history of fighting and winning.

what better way to prove it then by giving an open challenge and taking on all comers?

i feel your head is in the sand in regards to what GJJ did for martial arts. See that's the thing, it isn't an opinion or theory anymore, that's what the martial arts world had before the Gracie's. Now we have actual facts instead of posturing, hyperbole and stories........

 

[ballen0351]

Are you talking about the Gracie Challenges here or the street fighter vs the average blue belt?

I'm talking about the Gracie's. You keep telling me how the graices kicked everyones butts because of GJJ. Maybe they kicked everyone's butt because they are just that good. Some family's have something special. Like the manning family in football how many people have 1 son that's a starting QB in the NFL and won a super bowl? Well the manning DNA has 2 so far. Maybe the gracies have that and had they took up boxing they would all be world champ boxers or judo or tkd gold medal winners. They just have that it factor.

 

[ballen0351]

Lol, yes they did! They spent a lifetime literally challenging the martial arts world!!!! LITERALLY!!!!! They put a loud and obvious challenge out to the whole martial arts world and they won. Period!!! Which art stepped up and proved that GJJ wasn't the superior art?

LOL. OK if you say so. You can't challenge an art only an artist. All they proved was on that day they were better then that guy. You see what you want to see your a fan its cool. When I look at my favorite sports teams I feel the same way. That's what being a fan is all about.

 

[TFP]

No they didn't shake up the traditional martial arts world. They shook up the sports world and not even a big part of the sports world just that small part. Traditional Goju is bigger and more wide spread then ever. Organizations like the IOGKF and Jundokan are world wide with millions of members. Gracie's had no effect on them. TKD and Judo are still Olympic sports with millions of followers world wide. I'm glad you like your sport hell I train BJJ a few times a month I like it. I think its fun and a great workout. But your letting your fandom of your sport cloud your objectiveness. It had a huge impact on YOUR world because you enjoy it. It has no effect on MY world at all.

Of course it had a huge effect on the martial arts world, martial arts is forever changed because of what the Gracie's did. Hell, it spawned not one, but two new martial arts that are the fastest growing (BJJ & MMA). The MMA side has only really been taking form and shape for 15yrs.

 

[TFP]

Well I know I'm a cop for almost 15 years and have used it and it works for me. I know of other cops that have used it and it works for them. There are 7 cops just in my dojo. I know of a man that used a bunkai from one of our kata to disarm a man with a knife at his hospital security guard job. I know an undercover NYPD narc detective that used it to disarm a thug that had a gun that was trying to rob him and it worked. These are all REAL world not on a padded mat in a nice one on one cell with a ref to keep you safe. It is what it is. I have nothing to prove I could care less if you like Goju or think it works. The only ones I see trying to prove how tough their sport is would be you guys.

Thats awesome! I'm not trying to say other martial arts are not effective, I'm just weary of arts that don't have real world applicability. Why would you care less if I like Goju after looking it up?

 

[Hanzou]

That's your opinion my friend. They sure did a great job selling DVDs and Gracie brand Gis though I'll give them that.

Well it's an opinion backed by a lot of evidence.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Can you give an example of the Gracie's turning down a challenge?!

Gene Labelle and Benny the Jet Urquidez.

 

[ballen0351]

Thats awesome! I'm not trying to say other martial arts are not effective, I'm just weary of arts that don't have real world applicability. Why would you care less if I like Goju after looking it up?

Because I don't train for you to Care. If you like it awesome if you don't awesome. Im ok either way. I don't need to prove anything to anyone.

 

[TFP]

LOL. OK if you say so. You can't challenge an art only an artist. All they proved was on that day they were better then that guy. You see what you want to see your a fan its cool. When I look at my favorite sports teams I feel the same way. That's what being a fan is all about.

Of course :fanboy: just a fanboy. The way I see it is the Gracie's put out a loud and boisterous challenge to everyone martial artist that GJJ was better than there art and no one was able to use there combat art to prove otherwise.

If that isn't challenging an art than I don't know what is. They didn't say hey ballen0351 we challenge you, they said we challenge you and anyone from your art. Big difference there.

 

[ballen0351]

Of course it had a huge effect on the martial arts world, martial arts is forever changed because of what the Gracie's did. Hell, it spawned not one, but two new martial arts that are the fastest growing (BJJ & MMA). The MMA side has only really been taking form and shape for 15yrs.

Yes it had an influence on the sport world. And MMA was only started because GJJ started showing its weaknesses
They started adding other arts to make up the weakness of GJJ. There is nothing wrong with it. No art is perfect.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You keep bringing up this "rules and sporting contest" as your argument....... And you keep ignoring the fact that the Gracie Challenges, early Vale Tudo and early UFC's HAD NO RULES!!!!!!!!!!

GJJ was proven in a ruleless combat situation.

Vale Tudo had rules.

http://mmaswiss.blogspot.com.au/p/history-of-vale-tudomma_3969.html

And according to this:

http://www.valetudo.com.br/estatisticas.htm

The style with the most defeats was Jiujitsu.

 

[ballen0351]

[QUote;16117]Of co :fanboy: just a fanboy. The way I see it is the Gracie's put out a loud and boisterous challenge to everyone martial artist that GJJ was better than there art and no one was able to use there combat art to prove otherwise.

[/quote]

The following men beat a Gracie

Masahiko Kimura
Frank Shamrock
Melvin Manhoef
Akihiro Gono
Allan Goes
Kazuhiro Nakamura
Takanori Gomi
B.J. Penn
Carlos Newton
Shungo Oyama
Dan Henderson

Kiyoshi Tamura
Dustin Hezelett
Shungo Oyama
B.J. Penn
Matt Hughes

Harold Howard.<---- Goju black belt
Hideo Tokoro
Norifumi Yakamoto
Genki Sudo

Tokimitsu Ishizawa
Kazushi Sakuraba AKA the Gracie Hunter

If that isn't challenging an art than I don't know what is. They didn't say hey ballen0351 we challenge you, they said we challenge you and anyone from your art. Big difference there.

At that time there were still legends of Okinawian karate still alive and well during yhe early parts of this did any Gracie take a trip to the Island and lay down this challenge to them? You want to prove something go to the source of the art.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match with you. There is nothing wrong with BJJ its a great art I like it I train in it some. I personally like other arts better. There is no superior art only superior fighters. You believe GJJ is the best great its your opinion. At the end of the day it's all opinions.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well it's an opinion backed by a lot of evidence.

It's an opinion backed up by a lot of poorly gathered, intensely biased and rather misinterpreted evidence.

 

[ballen0351]

I will also say last night was the first time I ever saw anyone use BJJ in a street fight. It worked great up until the guy getting choked outs friend punched the BJJ guy in the side of the head and dropped him. Bjj guy did and awesome clinch spun around behind a much bigger guy and got him in a standing choke from behind. Dude was goinging lights out. Until the friend stepped in. bJJ guy needed stitches and the friend that hit him went to jail. bJJ guy was a purple belt and his standing work was really good I seriously was impressed. Dude would have been out cold in like 2 more seconds if the friend didn't stop it. It was fast too I was on one side of the street. From the time it started to the BJJ guy flipping around and sinking the choke I had only walked half way across the street. Dude sucker punched him just as I got there . In almost 15 years that's the first time I've seen a choke like that slapped on and be effective

 

[TFP]

Gene Labelle and Benny the Jet Urquidez.

Benny the jet huh.........

http://books.google.com/books?id=GN...cd=1#v=onepage&q=benny the Jet Rorion&f=false


as far Gene goes ( I love Gene and already mentioned him
in this thread) the Gracies challenged him and he he laughed and said he would fight Helio since they were closer in age.

 

[Hanzou]

It's an opinion backed up by a lot of poorly gathered, intensely biased and rather misinterpreted evidence.

I don't see how you could even attempt to make that argument. All you need to do is look at Bjj's growth over the last 20 years, and the number of sport and traditional martial arts around the world that actively incorporate Bjj into their systems. This includes Ninjutsu, Krav, and Systema.

One of the most lucrative jobs in MA today is to be a Bjj black belt. My brother is a purple belt and he gets constant offers to teach at Universities, schools, MMA gyms, and traditional MA schools.

 

[Spinedoc]

You keep bringing up this "rules and sporting contest" as your argument....... And you keep ignoring the fact that the Gracie Challenges, early Vale Tudo and early UFC's HAD NO RULES!!!!!!!!!!

GJJ was proven in a ruleless combat situation.

No rules????? You mean you could kill someone? There was no one to break up the fight? Wow. You watched a different event than I did.

I still maintain that there is philosophically no difference between the UFC and the NFL. Same concept, different sport. By way of comparison, the early professional footballers had no rules either....did that mean that it wasn't a sport?

YMMV

Mike

 

[Hanzou]

No rules????? You mean you could kill someone? There was no one to break up the fight? Wow. You watched a different event than I did.

I still maintain that there is philosophically no difference between the UFC and the NFL. Same concept, different sport. By way of comparison, the early professional footballers had no rules either....did that mean that it wasn't a sport?

YMMV

Mike

Its important to note that an NFL player could beat the tar out of quite a few martial art experts out there.