Sport And TMA....Again

[TFP]

I would assume if it were my style and I have faith in my style then it works.

man this is a dangerous philosophy.

 

[ballen0351]

I would question an art that is ineffective if one or two moves are taken out then it becomes ineffective.

Its not that the art becomes ineffective by removing thing. It is that by removing things its no longer that art. Its something different. If the core principles of your art are to get in close and do massive damage to sensitive body parts like the throat, eyes, groin, spine, back of head, and small joints and you say OK test your art but no groin and throat strikes and no small joint damage. Well it's no longer my art I'm testing

 

[ballen0351]

man this is a dangerous philosophy.

Why if your style has a known history and lineage why wouldn't it work. For example I train Goju I can trace it back to where it started I can trace its founders teachers. I can see the history. I can look at and try out different things and through my experience tell yeah that's good or no that wouldn't work. I get real life feedback from other Goju guys that have used it in real life against real attackers. Its not blind faith but its faith none the less.

 

[TFP]

Here are my thoughts on why you should train 100% or live a lot if you are doing a martial art for self defense.......

im im not convinced that Gracie JJ as a fighting art was all that superior at first. My thoughts are that GJJ was a great art, but that the Gracie's just trained to actually fight!!! They fought each other over and over since birth and then went out and challenged a bunch of Martial Arts that hadn't been based in actual fighting for along time. They trained in the philosophy of fighting and there art was about attrition which was totally foreign to self defense and martial arts at the time.


Thats the rub, actual fighting is different than role playing. I feel like that is why Kieth Hackney gave Royce so much trouble in there fight. Hackney was a fighter who tested himself by actually fighting!!!

imo, if you take the average Blue belt in BJJ who has never been in an actual fight and put him in a fight with a tough street fighter and I think the average BJJ blue belt is in a lot of trouble.

 

[TFP]

I'm speaking more of the Gracie's brand. When they went on this challange tour or more appropriate marketing campaign. They were trying to sell the style. It was brilliant job and made them rich. But at the time BJJ was relatively unknown in the US.

You forgot about the part where it blew the doors off the martial arts world and literally picked it up and dumped it on its head!

 

[Spinedoc]

It is equally illogical to conclude that your art is good in a real life or death encounter because it is ill suited for sport. Being bad for sport does not equal good otherwise.


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Never said that it did! The point is that the situations are different and it's a false equivalency. The only way to ever know is to be in a real life or death encounter!

Mike

 

[TFP]

Well, I'm sorry that you were unable to see what I read, for that I apologize. Please point to where I said that the UFC or MMA are "fake" or aren't "really fighting". What I said was that they are sporting contests, contested in a venue with a referee and with a specific set of rules in an attempt to win.

This is similar to boxing, wrestling, etc. These are all contact sports, and they are all "real", however, they operate within a specific situation and context. To conclude that your fighting style, regardless of what it is, is therefore ideal for all situations. This is a textbook "argument from analogy" that falls apart.

I have no knowledge of Boztepe's involvement. Personally, I was in a lot of fights when I was younger....

I learned one important lesson. Fighting is for people without peace, without control. No one, ever, ever wins a fight.

YMMV.

Kindest Regards,

Mike

You keep bringing up this "rules and sporting contest" as your argument....... And you keep ignoring the fact that the Gracie Challenges, early Vale Tudo and early UFC's HAD NO RULES!!!!!!!!!!

GJJ was proven in a ruleless combat situation.

 

[ballen0351]

Here are my thoughts on why you should train 100% or live a lot if you are doing a martial art for self defense.......

im im not convinced that Gracie JJ as a fighting art was all that superior at first. My thoughts are that GJJ was a great art, but that the Gracie's just trained to actually fight!!! They fought each other over and over since birth and then went out and challenged a bunch of Martial Arts that hadn't been based in actual fighting for along time. They trained in the philosophy of fighting and there art was about attrition which was totally foreign to self defense and martial arts at the time.


Thats the rub, actual fighting is different than role playing. I feel like that is why Kieth Hackney gave Royce so much trouble in there fight. Hackney was a fighter who tested himself by actually fighting!!!

imo, if you take the average Blue belt in BJJ who has never been in an actual fight and put him in a fight with a tough street fighter and I think the average BJJ blue belt is in a lot of trouble.

Your not giving enough credit to just natural ability as well. Maybe Gracie won because he's just that good. Look at the guys in the UFC that are good but never become champs. Do they not train to fight hard? They just don't have the natural god given ability as others like GSP. Sometimes guys are just better then everyone else. That's why there are only 3 or 4 elite QBs in the NFL I'm sure all 32 teams QBs train hard to be good but in the end natural ablilty wins out.

 

[TFP]

Yeah that's what I'm saying. That to me was the purpose of these challenges. To get it in the US where it can turn a profit. What better marketing then challenge matches.

That marketing doesn't work unless you're winning.:hmm:

 

[ballen0351]

You forgot about the part where it blew the doors off the martial arts world and literally picked it up and dumped it on its head!

That's your opinion my friend. They sure did a great job selling DVDs and Gracie brand Gis though I'll give them that.

 

[ballen0351]

That marketing doesn't work unless you're winning.:hmm:

Of course. Goes back to natural ability and some times some guys are just better no matter what. But to try to say well that proves BJJ is the best and "blew the doors off". Well that's your opinion. Its hardly dominating by itself anymore.

 

[TFP]

I was not trying to get personal, I was merely pointing out that the style vs style argument is invalid because it only represents a very small percentage of all the arts and martial artists out there and only those who chose to compete at that time. The step up comment you made appeared to be nothing more than macho posturing. Not wanting to compete does not equate to a lack of courage just a realization that not everything has to be a contest and not everyone needs to be validated by someone else.

Yes I understand your point and agree 100% that the martial arts are and should be about more than just fighting. But in this context, when people say or said "Gracie JJ" doesn't work or say "oh I can't fight you because I would just kill you with one of my four lethal death strikes", then it indeed becomes "Macho". The Gracie's put the challenge out and some people stepped up and fought, some people said there art was better but didn't step up and fight and some said we arn't really about fighting..... It's the middle guys that are the problem.

of course the Gracie's were bullies who often times forcefully challenged dojo's and arts that didn't want to compete, but overall Gracie JJ challenged the martial arts world to see who's fighting style was better and they won. Remember the martial arts first and foremost is about combat!

 

[TFP]

It was the UFC, not the Gracie challenges that popularized Bjj. People were amazed that a small guy in a karate gi could take down wrestlers and strikers a lot larger than himself.

That was all by design of course. The Gracies picked the smallest of their brothers to fight in the UFC to prove a point.

Ha! The Gracie's picked the smallest brother because he was who was left after the biggest, baddest brother had a falling out with Rorion over teaching private lessons outside the academy for money.:wink:

 

[ballen0351]

Yes I understand your point and agree 100% that the martial arts are and should be about more than just fighting. But in this context, when people say or said "Gracie JJ" doesn't work or say "oh I can't fight you because I would just kill you with one of my four lethal death strikes", then it indeed becomes "Macho". The Gracie's put the challenge out and some people stepped up and fought, some people said there art was better but didn't step up and fight and some said we arn't really about fighting..... It's the middle guys that are the problem.

of course the Gracie's were bullies who often times forcefully challenged dojo's and arts that didn't want to compete, but overall Gracie JJ challenged the martial arts world to see who's fighting style was better and they won. Remember the martial arts first and foremost is about combat!

No the Gracie's didn't challenge the martial arts world. That challenged individual fighters. I train Goju if I lost dose that mean Goju lost or I lost? Maybe I'm just not that good at Goju. Maybe I had a bad day.

Nobody has said GJJ wasn't effective but this attitude of GJJ is king all else is sub par is just nonsense.

 

[TFP]

That's your opinion my friend. They sure did a great job selling DVDs and Gracie brand Gis though I'll give them that.

And your opinion is what? They didn't shake up the traditional martial arts world by putting out a challenge to the whole martial arts world and then backing it up? Can you give an example of the Gracie's turning down a challenge?

yes they marketed well and sold a lot of DVD's, but there marketing was rooted in proof and truth!!! They couldn't of marketed that well if they hadn't first gone out and actually fought and beat other martial arts on a wide scale. Again you ignore this huge part of it!

 

[TFP]

No the Gracie's didn't challenge the martial arts world. That challenged individual fighters. I train Goju if I lost dose that mean Goju lost or I lost? Maybe I'm just not that good at Goju. Maybe I had a bad day.

Nobody has said GJJ wasn't effective but this attitude of GJJ is king all else is sub par is just nonsense.

Lol, yes they did! They spent a lifetime literally challenging the martial arts world!!!! LITERALLY!!!!! They put a loud and obvious challenge out to the whole martial arts world and they won. Period!!! Which art stepped up and proved that GJJ wasn't the superior art?

 

[TFP]

Your not giving enough credit to just natural ability as well. Maybe Gracie won because he's just that good. Look at the guys in the UFC that are good but never become champs. Do they not train to fight hard? They just don't have the natural god given ability as others like GSP. Sometimes guys are just better then everyone else. That's why there are only 3 or 4 elite QBs in the NFL I'm sure all 32 teams QBs train hard to be good but in the end natural ablilty wins out.

Are you talking about the Gracie Challenges here or the street fighter vs the average blue belt?

 

[TFP]

Its not that the art becomes ineffective by removing thing. It is that by removing things its no longer that art. Its something different. If the core principles of your art are to get in close and do massive damage to sensitive body parts like the throat, eyes, groin, spine, back of head, and small joints and you say OK test your art but no groin and throat strikes and no small joint damage. Well it's no longer my art I'm testing

This is tough to argue against......

 

[TFP]

Why if your style has a known history and lineage why wouldn't it work. For example I train Goju I can trace it back to where it started I can trace its founders teachers. I can see the history. I can look at and try out different things and through my experience tell yeah that's good or no that wouldn't work. I get real life feedback from other Goju guys that have used it in real life against real attackers. Its not blind faith but its faith none the less.

I guess my issue is in the "trying out and seeing what works". Because I feel if you arnt really trying it out, then it's just theory. Who is the toughest Goju fighter you know of? Is there a place that Goju artists can really test there skills? Or is it been so long since the art has truly been tested.

i don't know a lot. (Anything) about Goju but I will look it up for sure!

 

[ballen0351]

And your opinion is what? They didn't shake up the traditional martial arts world by putting out a challenge to the whole martial arts world and then backing it up? Can you give an example of the Gracie's turning down a challenge?
yes they marketed well and sold a lot of DVD's, but there marketing was rooted in proof and truth!!! They couldn't of marketed that well if they hadn't first gone out and actually fought and beat other martial arts on a wide scale. Again you ignore this huge part of it!

No they didn't shake up the traditional martial arts world. They shook up the sports world and not even a big part of the sports world just that small part. Traditional Goju is bigger and more wide spread then ever. Organizations like the IOGKF and Jundokan are world wide with millions of members. Gracie's had no effect on them. TKD and Judo are still Olympic sports with millions of followers world wide. I'm glad you like your sport hell I train BJJ a few times a month I like it. I think its fun and a great workout. But your letting your fandom of your sport cloud your objectiveness. It had a huge impact on YOUR world because you enjoy it. It has no effect on MY world at all.