Sport And TMA....Again

[Spinedoc]

I've known more than a few BJJ guys who have had "real, in the street" fights. One of my friends in Australia, famous for being one of the guys to answer the Yellow Bamboo challenge, has on two separate occasions, been assaulted "on the street." One instance this is a literal statement. Exited cars. He choked the attacker out and threw his car keys into the bushes.

If your criteria is "works in an 'actual' life threatening street encounter" then BJJ has already delivered. End of story.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Kirk, I never disparaged any specific art, I merely contemplated decision theory, and how it is illogical to conclude that because your art (x) is good in a sporting contest, that it is therefore good in a life or death conflict. By way of extension, it is also illogical to conclude that because your art (y) is NOT good in a sporting contest, that it is therefore not good in a real life or death conflict.

You can't make those conclusions. The situations are not the same, and therefore this sort of reasoning simply doesn't hold water. REGARDLESS of specific martial style or type of art....

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Spinedoc]

:jaw-dropping:


Mike this line of B.S. Has been used since the invention of the UFC by people not willing to step in and actually fight. "Oh it's fake or oh it isn't real fighting", etc.

infact most notably by legendary WingTsun master Emin Boztepe's! Did you know that the original UFC Super Fight" was not supposed to be Gracie vs Shamrock but actually Gracie vs Boztpese? But of course when push came to shove, after excuse after excuse he never stepped up .

he was offered a spot in the second UFC after bad mouthing the Gracie's, then offered a challenge match at a dojo, then offered a Super Fight vs Royce at UFC even though all over fighters had to fight in the brackets like the rest.

Emin found a way to back out each and every time .:lol2:

Well, I'm sorry that you were unable to see what I read, for that I apologize. Please point to where I said that the UFC or MMA are "fake" or aren't "really fighting". What I said was that they are sporting contests, contested in a venue with a referee and with a specific set of rules in an attempt to win.

This is similar to boxing, wrestling, etc. These are all contact sports, and they are all "real", however, they operate within a specific situation and context. To conclude that your fighting style, regardless of what it is, is therefore ideal for all situations. This is a textbook "argument from analogy" that falls apart.

I have no knowledge of Boztepe's involvement. Personally, I was in a lot of fights when I was younger....

I learned one important lesson. Fighting is for people without peace, without control. No one, ever, ever wins a fight.

YMMV.

Kindest Regards,

Mike

 

[Spinedoc]

The truth is most martial arts will work in street fights. No one is questioning that. What gets me is the assertion that if you don't test your art in the sporting arena it is not as good as those who do.

Exactly. The logic simply does not hold up under scrutiny. If you want to use your martial art to compete in sporting events, by all means do so, enjoy it, take it for what it is and be proud of your accomplishments within that construct.

But don't make the conclusions that A). Your techniques and skill within the martial arts sporting events will translate into real combat situations B). that competing in a martial art sporting event is equivalent to a real life combat situation or that C). any martial artist who does not participate in a sporting event is somehow a lesser combatant, or is not equipped for real life combat.

Those are simply not valid conclusions.

If you want to embrace the sporting side....by all means do so, live it, love it, walk it.

Personally, I have absolutely NO desire to do that.

Kindest Regards,

Mike

 

[Steve]

I'm speaking more of the Gracie's brand. When they went on this challange tour or more appropriate marketing campaign. They were trying to sell the style. It was brilliant job and made them rich. But at the time BJJ was relatively unknown in the US.

Oswaldo Fadda and Luiz Franca guys do exist, but when you talk about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, it's pretty much all Gracie brand and always has been. While it was relatively unknown in the USA, it was still a thriving, fully developed art in Brazil.

 

[ballen0351]

Oswaldo Fadda and Luiz Franca guys do exist, but when you talk about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, it's pretty much all Gracie brand and always has been. While it was relatively unknown in the USA, it was still a thriving, fully developed art in Brazil.

Yeah that's what I'm saying. That to me was the purpose of these challenges. To get it in the US where it can turn a profit. What better marketing then challenge matches.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Hmm, that seems like 100% common sense to me. Testing your art is a way of knowing better if it truly works than say, not testing it.

The problem is that for something to be tested properly the test must be both valid and applicable to the situation you are testing it for. In some cases testing something improperly can be worse than not testing it at all.

 

[Steve]

Kirk, I never disparaged any specific art, I merely contemplated decision theory, and how it is illogical to conclude that because your art (x) is good in a sporting contest, that it is therefore good in a life or death conflict. By way of extension, it is also illogical to conclude that because your art (y) is NOT good in a sporting contest, that it is therefore not good in a real life or death conflict.

You can't make those conclusions. The situations are not the same, and therefore this sort of reasoning simply doesn't hold water. REGARDLESS of specific martial style or type of art....

Thanks,

Mike

It is equally illogical to conclude that your art is good in a real life or death encounter because it is ill suited for sport. Being bad for sport does not equal good otherwise.


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[RTKDCMB]

Yes. Many times. I've been involved in the martial arts fight business for many years in about every single compacity imaginable. Plus many, many fights, bouncing, matches, etc.

but honestly, turning this about me personally instead of the topic which is martial arts as a whole is a lame defensive mechanism.

im not sure why the resistance to the idea that GJJ/BJJ proved to be a dominant art in style vs style match ups.

I was not trying to get personal, I was merely pointing out that the style vs style argument is invalid because it only represents a very small percentage of all the arts and martial artists out there and only those who chose to compete at that time. The step up comment you made appeared to be nothing more than macho posturing. Not wanting to compete does not equate to a lack of courage just a realization that not everything has to be a contest and not everyone needs to be validated by someone else.

 

[Steve]

Yeah that's what I'm saying. That to me was the purpose of these challenges. To get it in the US where it can turn a profit. What better marketing then challenge matches.

Movies are better. Kung fu, karate, even aikido are well known in the USA largely due to Hollywood.


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[RTKDCMB]

I think the fact that the entire population who do these styles refuse to ever fight in a NHB arena speaks volumes.

It may speak volumes but you are reading from the wrong book.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah that's what I'm saying. That to me was the purpose of these challenges. To get it in the US where it can turn a profit. What better marketing then challenge matches.

It was the UFC, not the Gracie challenges that popularized Bjj. People were amazed that a small guy in a karate gi could take down wrestlers and strikers a lot larger than himself.

That was all by design of course. The Gracies picked the smallest of their brothers to fight in the UFC to prove a point.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You have to "enjoy" fighting to be serious in MA training.

No you don't, you have to enjoy training to be serious in MA training, fighting is another matter entirely. There is nothing fun about being forced to defend yourself. It should be the last thing you want to do, but you do it because because the alternative is less than pleasant. If you get into a fight you will either get hurt and/or you will have to hurt someone else and neither of those is fun.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No you don't, you have to enjoy training to be serious in MA training, fighting is another matter entirely. There is nothing fun about being forced to defend yourself. It should be the last thing you want to do, but you do it because because the alternative is less than pleasant. If you get into a fight you will either get hurt and/or you will have to hurt someone else and neither of those is fun.

There are many different levels of "fighting".

1. partner testing,
2. sport tournament,
3. friendly challenge,
4. unfriendly challenge,
5. street fight.

Nobody will get hurt in 1, 2, and 3. Some injury may occur in 4. Not all fights have to be "street fight" that you need to see blood.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Why? Comfort and Ego. In a lot of karate, TKD, kung fu, and even kickboxing schools, you can get by with minimal contact. Yeah, you can do sparring, but often its not heavy sparring. You also get to establish a comfort zone, because no one is going to significantly destroy your comfort zone in a class.

In a grappling dojo/school, its a completely different ballgame. Your comfort zone is instantly destroyed as someone grabs you forcibly and attempts to throw you, submit you, or pin you. You have big sweaty guys on top of you constantly. You get slammed to the mat constantly. You get choked constantly. For some people, its completely ego shattering, especially when you first start and think you're the baddest guy on the block. In my time, I've seen plenty of brawny guys enter my gym and leave and never return after they get schooled by a white belt.

On the other side of the coin I would be willing to bet that many people do grappling arts such as BJJ because they don't want to risk getting hit so it is more comfortable for them do do something they feel is safer instead of having people constantly punching and kicking at them. Royce Gracie himself stated during the early UFC's that he did not want to get hit. I too have seen ego get in the way of training, there was once a kickboxer that joined a class that I was in, we were practicing side kicks and I mentioned that he should have his rear hand up in a guarding position to defend against a counter strike, he stated that he did not need to because no one could get him there and then I showed him they could and he did not come back for another class.

 

[Steve]

On the other side of the coin I would be willing to bet that many people do grappling arts such as BJJ because they don't want to risk getting hit so it is more comfortable for them do do something they feel is safer instead of having people constantly punching and kicking at them. Royce Gracie himself stated during the early UFC's that he did not want to get hit. I too have seen ego get in the way of training, there was once a kickboxer that joined a class that I was in, we were practicing side kicks and I mentioned that he should have his rear hand up in a guarding position to defend against a counter strike, he stated that he did not need to because no one could get him there and then I showed him they could and he did not come back for another class.

I don't like getting hit, but I've had more black eyes than I ever got studying a striking art. Broke my nose once too, on an errant knee when I was a blue belt.

My point is that fear of contact isn't a real consideration.


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[ballen0351]

Movies are better. Kung fu, karate, even aikido are well known in the USA largely due to Hollywood.


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That and all the military personnel were stationed in Japan not Brazil

 

[RTKDCMB]

I don't like getting hit, but I've had more black eyes than I ever got studying a striking art. Broke my nose once too, on an errant knee when I was a blue belt.

My point is that fear of contact isn't a real consideration.


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When I was a yellow belt I kneed myself in the face after getting thrown.

 

[RTKDCMB]

There are many different levels of "fighting".

1. partner testing,
2. sport tournament,
3. friendly challenge,
4. unfriendly challenge,
5. street fight.

Nobody will get hurt in 1, 2, and 3. Some injury may occur in 4. Not all fights have to be "street fight" that you need to see blood.

The main difference between fighting and self defence is one of choice, in 1-5 you fight because you want to (if by 5 you mean like, "lets take this outside") in self defence you fight because you have to because there was no other way at the time. 1, 2 and 3 can be fun, 3 and 4 not so much.

 

[TFP]

OK! The main offensive technique I train and teach would be the elbow strike. That is the point of the elbow. The targets are normally the ribs under the arm, the side of the head and the spinal cord. Please tell me where I can test the effectiveness of that strike in competition. Probably the second most important strike I teach is the forearm strike to the back of the neck or side of the neck and jaw. We now start coming into the more legal techniques such as knees, knife hand and hammer fist. Punching is not a great part of what we do but in competition I would have to rely on it. I can believe those first techniques are effective, I don't have to test them on people. I can test them against pads or bags.

So you talk of testing your art. I would be only testing part of my art and I don't feel the need to do that.
:asian:

this is a very fair question and a tough one to answer, but I have on. Umerous occasions went live with elbow strikes using elbow pads. Of course you can take out some of the more damaging strikes while practicing your art. (What is your art?). But I disagrees that you don't need to test the rest. How do you plan on getting into position for these strikes? And what are you going to do when these strikes don't finish your opponent/attacker?

I would question an art that is ineffective if one or two moves are taken out then it becomes ineffective.

 

[TFP]

If I can hit you at 50% I can hit you at 75% or 100%, I don't need to hit my training partners at 100% to know it works. Last night I had to arrest a friend and coworker. He became combative and I needed to strike him. I held back and hit him about 50% to give him a message. I could have hit him at 100% and hurt him but I didn't need to. Not every encounter requires full on destruction

This makes sense as long as those moves or strikes are effective. Great post.