Master have right to fail everyone at BB Test?

[HighKick]

Way back I've had rather "easy" tests where one just had to know the material. I've also had really, really rough ones. I've never been a "real confident" type and always felt "unworthy". Not a good way prosper maybe, but it is what it is. I always relied on my instructors and superiors opinion yet still have on occasion questioned their decisions.

As an instructor we definitely leaned toward pretty tough testing. I have heard black belt tests I've given sometimes referred to as "brutal". But I survived a few myself and figured anyone else can too. There were always other black belt examiners included and we would confer. I don't think I ever failed anyone testing for black belt. In fact I never let anyone test unless I already considered him/her a black belt already. A couple of times I did have to pause a test for "private counseling" when it appeared the student was "in turmoil". The counseling was done by another black and never by me. In both instances it worked wonders. I never tested to check if the student had the knowledge and skill but always to find how badly they wanted to join the black belt level.

The idea of testing someone for black belt and failing them is anathema to me. In my dojo I had the last say and never farmed the decision out to someone who didn't know me and my dojo.

For certain, this is the best way to do testing's IMHO. I never want a student to feel like it is slam dunk, instead I want them going into it as confident as possible. Of course, people are people so that is all over the spectrum. It is a great feeling as the instructor to see a person do more than they thought they could.

This post makes me think of my 3rd Dan testing. Absolutely grueling 5-hour ordeal. It was about a year after my Olympic run and I was in very good shape. And my GM squeezed every ounce of 'shape' out of me.
Great memories.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You mean your school teachers allowed you to look at classmate's test and copy them?

No what I said was teachers didn't allow us to look at and copy classmate's tests, but everything else you said in post #111 wasn't far off on how academic tests worked when I was in school.

And tests in martial arts are like the former. You don't have to read a whole 5-page chapter that only two questions may come from. No, you actually know what those two questions are going to be. Now those two questions may not be on the test, but you know what those two questions are and that they could be on the test. That's martial arts.

From the formal tests I've taken, you've got to first of all know certain katas for whatever rank you're testing for but just knowing them is not enough, you also have to be able to perform them with skill and precision. Exactly how much skill and precision is required depends on the rank you're testing for, obviously the higher the rank the more skill and precision is required. You could also be tested on any katas for any of the previous ranks and you didn't know which ones you would be tested on beforehand.

Even better if they assess whether or not you're ready for the test, and decide whether you take it or not.

You're entitled to your opinion.

Not saying that this doesn't exist, but I've never seen it before. In fact, there are people who've achieved high technical dan rankings with missing limbs.

I do know of a case of a woman who doesn't have arms who I believe is 4th dan in Taekwondo, although I don't know exactly what she was tested on. They might've had her do other stuff in place of the stuff that they would require somebody with arms to do.

You're probably many times more likely to see that than someone be held back because of their physical disabilities.

Aside from the woman without arms that I mentioned above I haven't seen much of that. As I said, if that does happen they would probably require you to do other stuff in place of the stuff you can't do. Much like a case I know of where a boy in a wheelchair became an Eagle Scout, in place of the activities he couldn't do because of his handicap he was required to do other activities.

Nevertheless, martial arts tests are far easier to prepare for. At the most, the requirements for your belt rank will take up one page. And if you could be tested on things from lower ranks, it's more likely than not going to be on the one page for your rank.

But you also have to perform the requirements with skill and precision, that's part of the requirements themselves. Unlike in academic school where you just have to know the material. And when you're required to do stuff for lower ranks, you're required to do it with a greater level of skill. Both the yellow belt test and the black belt test might require you to do a front kick, but the black belt test would require you to do it with a much greater degree of skill. A front kick that would pass on the yellow belt test might very easily fail on the black belt test.

Whereas for academic tests, you've got to read several dozen pages from a few chapters to prepare for the test. And that's just for one subject. Multiply that times 5 or 6, or however many subjects you have.

And as I said, you just have to know the material, unlike in the martial arts where you don't just have to know the material but you also have to be able to perform it with skill.

This makes zero sense.

First off, college is 100% voluntary. How many people do you know who are in college (of their own volition), that don't care about passing tests and moving on to more advanced courses - and ultimately, getting their degree?

It makes tons of sense if you pay attention to what you read and to what you post.

In post #111 you were talking about compulsory education, not voluntary education such as college.

 

[Flying Crane]

I do know of a case of a woman who doesn't have arms who I believe is 4th dan in Taekwondo, although I don't know exactly what she was tested on. They might've had her do other stuff in place of the stuff that they would require somebody with arms to do.

She had the face of an angel
Smiling with sin
The body of Venus with arms…

-AC/DC Touch too Much

 

[PhotonGuy]

So as this is a thread about black belt tests I want to bring this up here. On this forum somebody once said that out of respect they would never ask their instructor when they were going to test for their next belt but especially not the black belt. As to who said that I don't remember offhand and even if I did I don't want to mention any names as that's gotten me in trouble on this forum before. Anyway, they said they would never ask when they were going to test but they would especially never ask when they would test for the black belt, out of respect.

So what I want to know is this? Why would it be especially disrespectful to ask when you're going to test for the black belt? Why would asking when you're going to test for the black belt be more disrespectful than asking when you're going to test for other belts? As people on this forum have said before black belts can be purchased at martial arts stores. I know that. I am well aware that black belts can be purchased at martial arts stores, they go for about five dollars and they will sell to anybody. That being the case why is it so disrespectful to ask about it? Why is it so disrespectful to ask about a five dollar piece of cloth?

 

[Hot Lunch]

So as this is a thread about black belt tests I want to bring this up here. On this forum somebody once said that out of respect they would never ask their instructor when they were going to test for their next belt but especially not the black belt. As to who said that I don't remember offhand and even if I did I don't want to mention any names as that's gotten me in trouble on this forum before. Anyway, they said they would never ask when they were going to test but they would especially never ask when they would test for the black belt, out of respect.

So what I want to know is this? Why would it be especially disrespectful to ask when you're going to test for the black belt? Why would asking when you're going to test for the black belt be more disrespectful than asking when you're going to test for other belts? As people on this forum have said before black belts can be purchased at martial arts stores. I know that. I am well aware that black belts can be purchased at martial arts stores, they go for about five dollars and they will sell to anybody. That being the case why is it so disrespectful to ask about it? Why is it so disrespectful to ask about a five dollar piece of cloth?

I'll say this much: if we walked into a bar... I'd bet you'd walk right over to the hottest chick there without thinking twice and without having yet imbibed a single drop of alcohol. You're the man, bro.

But two things on the belts:

1. Usually, the time in grade requirements for testing is posted somewhere in the dojo, or printed in a book or pamphlet that has been issued to you. Why would you need to ask in the first place?

2. I've seen dojo websites in the past that explicitly state that asking about the next test (or asking about when you'll be learning the kata for your newly acquired rank) is disrespectful, and grounds for delay. But I would think that if your dojo had such a policy, you'd already be fully aware of that.

 

[HighKick]

So as this is a thread about black belt tests I want to bring this up here. On this forum somebody once said that out of respect they would never ask their instructor when they were going to test for their next belt but especially not the black belt. As to who said that I don't remember offhand and even if I did I don't want to mention any names as that's gotten me in trouble on this forum before. Anyway, they said they would never ask when they were going to test but they would especially never ask when they would test for the black belt, out of respect.

So what I want to know is this? Why would it be especially disrespectful to ask when you're going to test for the black belt? Why would asking when you're going to test for the black belt be more disrespectful than asking when you're going to test for other belts? As people on this forum have said before black belts can be purchased at martial arts stores. I know that. I am well aware that black belts can be purchased at martial arts stores, they go for about five dollars and they will sell to anybody. That being the case why is it so disrespectful to ask about it? Why is it so disrespectful to ask about a five dollar piece of cloth?

So, in you own personal opinion, what would it mean to You to go out and buy a black belt, even if you have a decent amount of skill and experience?
Especially in purely traditional schools, there is a process that falls under the tutelage of the head instructor/Master/Grand Master. This process varies by style, curriculum and school. It is a right they have earned, and to be told you are ready to test, especially for black belt, by their assessment of your time and commitment should mean a boat load to you. There is nothing better than looking back and seeing one's accomplishment(s).
You want to do your own thing knock your socks off. Just don't be upset when you do not get the respect you think you deserve. Learned people can figure this out and smell BS pretty quick.
Just like getting a college degree, there is a verifiable process that can be traced. Without that, a belt doesn't mean d**k, IMHO.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Even better if they assess whether or not you're ready for the test, and decide whether you take it or not.

I've personally gone back and forth on this. At my primary instructor's school (and my other instructors in that art were the same), students just asked to test when they felt ready. We sometimes pushed a student to test, if they were ready for the next level of material, but that was rarely necessary, because there was a clear path.

Teaching my own curriculum, I tested students in parts, and they sometimes didn't even know they were in a test. Every belt had some tests they were aware of, but I didn't want to section off an entire class to test (and not be able to work with other students), so test sections were fairly short and most lacked any sort of gruelling endurance test. The classes could get gruelling, and that was enough for me. But students never got to choose when they tested. My progression path wasn't as clear as in the mainline of the art, and I had more extensive tests, so I just told students when they needed to get ready for testing, and tested them when I could fit it in.

I never got any students to the ranks where test segments would have been longer or more gruelling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So as this is a thread about black belt tests I want to bring this up here. On this forum somebody once said that out of respect they would never ask their instructor when they were going to test for their next belt but especially not the black belt. As to who said that I don't remember offhand and even if I did I don't want to mention any names as that's gotten me in trouble on this forum before. Anyway, they said they would never ask when they were going to test but they would especially never ask when they would test for the black belt, out of respect.

So what I want to know is this? Why would it be especially disrespectful to ask when you're going to test for the black belt? Why would asking when you're going to test for the black belt be more disrespectful than asking when you're going to test for other belts? As people on this forum have said before black belts can be purchased at martial arts stores. I know that. I am well aware that black belts can be purchased at martial arts stores, they go for about five dollars and they will sell to anybody. That being the case why is it so disrespectful to ask about it? Why is it so disrespectful to ask about a five dollar piece of cloth?

I never had a problem with this, but I also came up through a system where the student had to request testing. Brown and black belt tests were long (many sessions, plus one long session that was just that student being tested on responses to fed "attacks"), and students had to schedule all of those testing times with the instructor. So you never had to ask when you would test - just had to find a time that fit the school's schedule.

 

[Hot Lunch]

So as this is a thread about black belt tests I want to bring this up here. On this forum somebody once said that out of respect they would never ask their instructor when they were going to test for their next belt but especially not the black belt. As to who said that I don't remember offhand and even if I did I don't want to mention any names as that's gotten me in trouble on this forum before. Anyway, they said they would never ask when they were going to test but they would especially never ask when they would test for the black belt, out of respect.

So what I want to know is this? Why would it be especially disrespectful to ask when you're going to test for the black belt? Why would asking when you're going to test for the black belt be more disrespectful than asking when you're going to test for other belts? As people on this forum have said before black belts can be purchased at martial arts stores. I know that. I am well aware that black belts can be purchased at martial arts stores, they go for about five dollars and they will sell to anybody. That being the case why is it so disrespectful to ask about it? Why is it so disrespectful to ask about a five dollar piece of cloth?

Just thought I'd give you some examples

Our Testing Policy

Our Testing Policy Click here to save or print this in .pdf NOTICE To: All Students and Parents Of Okinawa Karate Of Twinsburg Subject: Testing Policies and Scheduling Updated: August 26, 2014...

fisherkarate.com

• No one should ask when they are testing Sensei knows when you are ready and will have the best opportunity to do your best and score highly on the test. PLEASE DO NOT ASK WHEN YOU ARE TESTING; You may ask what you need to work on for your next rank.

6. Protocol
a) No one is to ask when they are testing or attempt to reschedule the date of the test. If you miss a testing date you will have to wait for the next date.

Dojo Rules

1. Show respect to everyone at all times while in the Dojo. Especially to the blackbelts! 2. Be on your best behavior at all times while in the Dojo. Act as though you were in a church. 3. No vulga…

nemadshotokan.wordpress.com

9. Do no ask to be tested or when you will be tested or promoted. Your job is to train hard and let your teachers determine your progress and promotions.

 

[HighKick]

Just thought I'd give you some examples

Our Testing Policy

Our Testing Policy Click here to save or print this in .pdf NOTICE To: All Students and Parents Of Okinawa Karate Of Twinsburg Subject: Testing Policies and Scheduling Updated: August 26, 2014...

fisherkarate.com

Dojo Rules

1. Show respect to everyone at all times while in the Dojo. Especially to the blackbelts! 2. Be on your best behavior at all times while in the Dojo. Act as though you were in a church. 3. No vulga…

nemadshotokan.wordpress.com

3. I Massively subjective and hard to understand. Way too much cloak and dagger for me. The overall theme is fairly consistent, but I am guessing a Lot of the bluster is to try and keep kids in line. Not a good look IMHO.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I don't have a problem about a student asking when they can test for any belt, even though I never did. But I think the best way for the student to open the conversation is to ask, "What should I improve to be ready for the next promotion?"

 

[skribs]

I don't have a problem about a student asking when they can test for any belt, even though I never did. But I think the best way for the student to open the conversation is to ask, "What should I improve to be ready for the next promotion?"

The way I plan to do my TKD system, it won't be a problem either way.

For colored belts, the plan is to have a 3-stripe system per color:

1. Attitude
2. Technique
3. Testing

(I want to rename these, but these are the best descriptors I have so far for what I want each stripe to represent). First, when you get a new belt, just make sure you're training right. Don't worry about anything else, that will come. This is to counter the situation where people feel overwhelmed when moving up a rank.

Second, make sure you're doing the techniques correctly. This is to counter two specific issues I've had with classes in the past:

• Students who have good technique but struggle with the memorization of the curriculum feeling like a failure.
• Students who just do sloppy technique (but it's the correct sequence of moves) to prepare for testing.

We start with good technique, then focus on being ready for testing. Students who are 0-, 1-, or 2-stripe shouldn't need to ask to test, because only with 3 stripes do you test. They may ask to be evaluated for the next stripe, which I would be happy to oblige.

For black belts, I plan on doing a system that's inspired by some of the discussions I've had and videos I've watched, where the black belt testing for the next degree is essentially doing a demonstration or seminar of what they've been researching. Because I would help guide them in preparing it, the "when" and "is it ready" are a natural part of that discussion.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I'll say this much: if we walked into a bar... I'd bet you'd walk right over to the hottest chick there without thinking twice and without having yet imbibed a single drop of alcohol. You're the man, bro.

But two things on the belts:

1. Usually, the time in grade requirements for testing is posted somewhere in the dojo, or printed in a book or pamphlet that has been issued to you. Why would you need to ask in the first place?

That depends on whatever system your dojo has in place concerning tests and how much time is in between tests but even if your dojo does have regularly scheduled tests, that doesn't mean that every student will be testing whenever they schedule one so in that case it might make sense to ask (if you do want to work on earning belts.)

2. I've seen dojo websites in the past that explicitly state that asking about the next test (or asking about when you'll be learning the kata for your newly acquired rank) is disrespectful, and grounds for delay. But I would think that if your dojo had such a policy, you'd already be fully aware of that.

From my experience you're usually taught your next kata right after you get you're next rank, if you pass a rank test and get promoted than usually by the next class or so you're taught the next kata. That's just my experience.

I have been told, on this forum, that asking when you're going to test could be disrespectful because you're questioning your instructor's judgement but what I don't get is why it would be more disrespectful to ask when you're going to test for the black belt (if the black belt test is your next test) than to ask when you're going to test for other belts.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So, in you own personal opinion, what would it mean to You to go out and buy a black belt, even if you have a decent amount of skill and experience?

That's cheating.

Especially in purely traditional schools, there is a process that falls under the tutelage of the head instructor/Master/Grand Master. This process varies by style, curriculum and school. It is a right they have earned, and to be told you are ready to test, especially for black belt, by their assessment of your time and commitment should mean a boat load to you. There is nothing better than looking back and seeing one's accomplishment(s).

OK that makes sense, but why especially for the black belt? Why more so for the black belt than for other belts?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Just thought I'd give you some examples

Our Testing Policy

Our Testing Policy Click here to save or print this in .pdf NOTICE To: All Students and Parents Of Okinawa Karate Of Twinsburg Subject: Testing Policies and Scheduling Updated: August 26, 2014...

fisherkarate.com

• No one should ask when they are testing Sensei knows when you are ready and will have the best opportunity to do your best and score highly on the test. PLEASE DO NOT ASK WHEN YOU ARE TESTING; You may ask what you need to work on for your next rank.

OK I do see that as reasonable, since it does say you may ask what you need to work on for your next rank. Asking when you're testing is not the same as asking why you're not testing. Asking why your not testing would be like asking what you need to work on, your instructor might tell you you're not testing because you have to work more on this or that, so that way you will know what you have to work on so you can test. Students should be allowed to do that.

6. Protocol
a) No one is to ask when they are testing or attempt to reschedule the date of the test. If you miss a testing date you will have to wait for the next date.

What if some emergency happens and you're not able to make the test date? Sometimes stuff happens that is beyond a student's control.

9. Do no ask to be tested or when you will be tested or promoted. Your job is to train hard and let your teachers determine your progress and promotions.

OK well a student should be able to ask how they're doing, how their progress is going, and what they need to work on to get promoted. Those aren't unreasonable things to ask.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I don't have a problem about a student asking when they can test for any belt, even though I never did. But I think the best way for the student to open the conversation is to ask, "What should I improve to be ready for the next promotion?"

That depends on whatever system an instructor has in place on how students go up in belts, apparently some instructors do have a problem with students asking such stuff.

 

[HighKick]

That's cheating.

OK that makes sense, but why especially for the black belt? Why more so for the black belt than for other belts?

Mainly because black belt is seen as a level of high knowledge and represents the school they train at.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Mainly because black belt is seen as a level of high knowledge and represents the school they train at.

But isn't it just a five dollar piece of cloth?

 

[HighKick]

But isn't it just a five dollar piece of cloth?

We have been through all this multiple times by multiple people. Quit beating a dead horse.

 

[Hot Lunch]

But isn't it just a five dollar piece of cloth?

Only for the misers. $150 Japanese silk. Go big or home.