Master have right to fail everyone at BB Test?

[HighKick]

I believe that Gup is what they call the ranks below black belt in Taekwondo, in Japanese Karate they call such ranks Kyu and with the Kyu ranks they go backwards in number, the lower the number the higher the Kyu rank so 1st Kyu is the highest Kyu rank and is the rank right before 1st degree black belt which is also called 1st Dan and the Dan ranks go forward in number, the higher the number the higher the Dan rank.

Anyway Im talking about if somebody who goes to class an x number of times per week and they keep going to class that same number of times that week after making 1st Kyu or 1st Gup, that being the case it shouldn't take them much longer to get from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan (or 1st Gup to 1st Dan) than it took them to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu.

Obviously this will vary from person to person but Im talking about the same person who doesn't alter their workout schedule.

Of course there's variance but Im talking about how hard and how long it would take an individual to get from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan in proportion to how hard it was and how long it took that same individual to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu, to compare that individual to somebody else would be apples and oranges in what Im talking about.

Again, Im not talking about comparing different people, see above.

Not necessarily, when I was 45 I was stronger than when I was 18, and now Im stronger still.

So have you gone to 4th Dan and beyond?

Gup/Kup and Kyu belt numbering are the same for color belts and Dan belts.

Some or all of the dwell time between 1st Gup and 1st Dan testing is up to the school/instructor. I feel there is a Lot you do not see or understand in the maturation process. I would say the average is about 6-months between 1st Gup and 1st Dan.

Of course, the difference in individuality will always be there. We are not lemmings, nor should we want to be.

I can only surmise you were in poor shape for an 18-year old and got better over time. Kudos.

FWIW, I am 8th Dan MDK TKD, 6th Dan Kukkiwon TKD, 2nd Instructor Kali, and 1st Dan Shotokan. I do Not use a GM title nor want one. The latter two were acquired while still training TKD back in the '90's, but I have not been active in Shotokan for a while. I am no longer able to train TKD at a high level but still practice. I have owned two schools for over 3 decades where I am very active in the business side of things.
I can go into a long story about competing in WT and almost making the '88 Olympics, but it is tangential to your question.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Gup/Kup and Kyu belt numbering are the same for color belts and Dan belts.

Some or all of the dwell time between 1st Gup and 1st Dan testing is up to the school/instructor. I feel there is a Lot you do not see or understand in the maturation process. I would say the average is about 6-months between 1st Gup and 1st Dan.

At your dojo but that's not how it is at all dojos. The average time it takes to get from 1st Kyu or 1st Gup to 1st Dan varies from dojo to dojo.

Of course, the difference in individuality will always be there. We are not lemmings, nor should we want to be.

Why would we want to be rodents?

I can only surmise you were in poor shape for an 18-year old and got better over time. Kudos.

Nope as a matter of fact when I was 18 I was captain of my high school swim team and I was one of the fastest freestylers in my division. I could also lift more weight than many of my peers. Its just that I've kept at it over the years and kept myself in good shape and kept pushing myself to get even better and I plan to keep doing this until I go to the grave, whenever that might be.

FWIW, I am 8th Dan MDK TKD, 6th Dan Kukkiwon TKD, 2nd Instructor Kali, and 1st Dan Shotokan. I do Not use a GM title nor want one. The latter two were acquired while still training TKD back in the '90's, but I have not been active in Shotokan for a while. I am no longer able to train TKD at a high level but still practice. I have owned two schools for over 3 decades where I am very active in the business side of things.
I can go into a long story about competing in WT and almost making the '88 Olympics, but it is tangential to your question.

Well that's really good and really impressive although I would think that the higher the Dan rank the harder it would be as it makes sense that a higher rank would be harder to achieve, if we're talking about skill. I do know some of the really high Dan ranks you get not from skill but from stuff such as teaching ability and devotion to the art and it mostly becomes political at that point, but if its skill that's required for rank I would think the higher the rank the more skill would be required.

 

[Hot Lunch]

At your dojo but that's not how it is at all dojos. The average time it takes to get from 1st Kyu or 1st Gup to 1st Dan varies from dojo to dojo.

That's why he said "average." I can concur with that.

At my last dojo, it was technically six months - it's really based on training hours, but the hours required were impossible to achieve within the three months between tests unless you were willing to shell out the cash for private hours. Training hours were waived if you tested at the annual association camp.

At my current dojo, it's a year. The JKA used to be a year, then reduced it to six months. ISKF was still under JKA at the time, and decided to restore the 12 month wait some time after the split.

 

[HighKick]

At your dojo but that's not how it is at all dojos. The average time it takes to get from 1st Kyu or 1st Gup to 1st Dan varies from dojo to dojo.

That is why I said the 'Average' is around 6-months. There are still styles where it takes closer t 10-years to get to black belt.

Well that's really good and really impressive although I would think that the higher the Dan rank the harder it would be as it makes sense that a higher rank would be harder to achieve, if we're talking about skill. I do know some of the really high Dan ranks you get not from skill but from stuff such as teaching ability and devotion to the art and it mostly becomes political at that point, but if its skill that's required for rank I would think the higher the rank the more skill would be required.

For every style and school I have been around, getting to the higher ranks is more about what a person has done to promote their style/school. This can be done many ways but it is much less about the physicality. For example, how many students at a Dan level, what you have done in/for your community to promote your martial art (martial arts in general). There are many ways to get there, but none of them are quick or easy. Compared to my competition years, I would say it has been harder on me.
And 'political' is a misnomer and is a poor choice of words. It really mucks up the perception of getting to the higher Dan ranks.
And any martial artist worth their salt will say it is just a number and doesn't matter much.

 

[isshinryuronin]

It is true that a red/brown belt will know much of the material of a black belt, there is a considerable maturation process that is still taking place.

Hopefully this is true. And this holds even into the black belt grades. You can know most all of the alphabet, but if you're missing just 1/26th, 'T' for example, your ability in English will be considerably hampered. This silly example makes a point but is not really accurate for MA. The big difference is in MA you may not know you're missing some letters, or if you do, you don't know which ones. Finding those is part of the "maturation process."

You may not know you're missing pieces, whether they be technique, concept, biomechanical or even philosophical - until you find them. I say "find" because many of these are not or cannot be taught. Much like humans growing up and maturing - many of life's lessons must be discovered by actually living. I feel I hadn't fully matured as an adult till I was over 40. But try explaining that to a 20-year-old. In MA it took till I was over 60. But try explaining that to a brown or1st degree black. I find it amusing to read posts by junior practitioners commenting on senior black belt grades. But we were all young, full of it and inexperienced once - I think - can't remember that far back.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That is why I said the 'Average' is around 6-months. There are still styles where it takes closer t 10-years to get to black belt.

In Gracie Jiu Jitsu on the average it takes two years to get from brown to black, but it also takes two years to get from purple to brown. For all the belts from white to black it takes an average of two years to go up a belt and it generally takes 8 to 10 years to get a black belt in that style.

For every style and school I have been around, getting to the higher ranks is more about what a person has done to promote their style/school. This can be done many ways but it is much less about the physicality. For example, how many students at a Dan level, what you have done in/for your community to promote your martial art (martial arts in general). There are many ways to get there, but none of them are quick or easy. Compared to my competition years, I would say it has been harder on me.

From what I've seen, that's true about the higher dan ranks, and by that I mean 5th or 6th dan or above. Before that you do get promoted based on skill.

And 'political' is a misnomer and is a poor choice of words. It really mucks up the perception of getting to the higher Dan ranks.
And any martial artist worth their salt will say it is just a number and doesn't matter much.

What I meant by political is political within the specific art that you do, how the art is taught and practiced with regards to other instructors who are affiliated with you.

 

[Pooja Gulati]

This question was posed yesterday by the Master 5th Dan at a Recommmend BB test of five men and women. At the end he stated he was disappointed in the ability of their jumping kicks and height. Mostly everyone broke boards really well and I didn't see redo's in form. He said another master had failed all his students at a BB test in another city.
He said he COULD fail all testing before him. He posed a question to us -
Does he have the right to FAIL everyone-no explanation?

In answering the question, we all said he has the blanket RIGHT... The would be BB's said they would want to know why. The BB's sitting at the table, said it wouldn't be right and that the students have rights too. Any comments

Maybe,

Such a failure is important

Followed by a letter or workbook if possible…or the names of forms that need to be perfected

Where criticisms and improvements upon methods may be drawn out for the student to test and thrive in the next round of testing?

 

[PhotonGuy]

Mainly because black belt is seen as a level of high knowledge and represents the school they train at.

This is coming a bit late but I want to say thank you for a good answer as to why a student might want to earn a black belt at a dojo. Some people in this forum, and some people in the world of martial arts in general, might ask why a student would want to earn a belt and you gave a good answer. Not everybody is in it for belts but for those who are, for students who do want to earn black belts, your answer is a good reason as to why they might have such a goal.

 

[Hot Lunch]

This is coming a bit late but I want to say thank you for a good answer as to why a student might want to earn a black belt at a dojo. Some people in this forum, and some people in the world of martial arts in general, might ask why a student would want to earn a belt and you gave a good answer. Not everybody is in it for belts but for those who are, for students who do want to earn black belts, your answer is a good reason as to why they might have such a goal.

If you put a ladder of progression in front of a normal human being, they're going to want to climb it.

If they don't, it's usually for at least one of three reasons:

1. They may not want the resposiblity that comes with being a particular positition (and that's okay).
2. They don't want increased levels performance to be expected of them (not okay).
3. They don't believe that a particular position is worth the work required to attain it (not okay, and they're wasting everyone's time).

 

[Pooja Gulati]

Maybe,

Such a failure is important

Followed by a letter or workbook if possible…or the names of forms that need to be perfected

Where criticisms and improvements upon methods may be drawn out for the student to test and thrive in the next round of testing?

I spoke to one of the Boojosaubhams about this:

At the dojang I work with, black belts will continue to attend the Dojang after the testing and so, no point in failing them as there will be continued improvement with guidance!