Master have right to fail everyone at BB Test?

[drop bear]

Here is a video on what the black belt means.

See BJJ because it competes goes the other way a bit. And has the concept of sandbagging.

So not chasing belts is frowned upon.

Eg. Jessie encamp competing in the white belt division.

Which I believe was the wrong move.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Mainly because black belt is seen as a level of high knowledge and represents the school they train at.

Every student is going to represent the school they train at to a certain extent, even the white belts, but I get what you're saying, the black belts are going to get the most attention from observers. If somebody is visiting the dojo and watching a class and considering the possibility of joining they are going to be watching the black belts the most. Well they will probably also be watching the brown belts a good deal too. In many dojos brown comes right before black so the brown belts are supposed to be almost as good as the black belts and have almost as much knowledge and skill as the black belts, some of the brown belts might even have just as much knowledge and skill as the black belts but are still wearing brown belts because they haven't been promoted yet depending on what kind of system the dojo has for rank promotion. So the brown belts are going to get almost as much attention as the black belts.

So the knowledge that is required to be a brown belt should be almost as high as that which is required for a black belt and while the black belt requirements should of course be harder than the brown belt requirements since it is a higher belt, they shouldn't be that much harder as it is just one rank above.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Nobody's asking.

Number one, just because you're not asking doesn't mean nobody else is.

Number two, even if nobody is asking I don't care, Im going to make my point anyway.

 

[skribs]

Eg. Jessie encamp competing in the white belt division.

What is his actual knowledge of groundfighting?

Sometimes the lower belts are very weird in BJJ where you get some people that are 50 years old and have never done any physical activity outside of the bare minimum to pass gym class, and you have other people who are D1 college wrestlers or former Judokas, or people who are already athletic and naturally talented and just don't have the requisite mat hours yet.

 

[isshinryuronin]

What is his actual knowledge of groundfighting?

Jesse is an accomplished karate-ka. His brother is an MMA fighter. Not sure how accomplished, but I think he's a pro.

 

[drop bear]

What is his actual knowledge of groundfighting?

Sometimes the lower belts are very weird in BJJ where you get some people that are 50 years old and have never done any physical activity outside of the bare minimum to pass gym class, and you have other people who are D1 college wrestlers or former Judokas, or people who are already athletic and naturally talented and just don't have the requisite mat hours yet.

From whenever shoot fighting was a thing.

 

[drop bear]

Attending seminars.

When Keeping It Real Goes Wrong - Ground Fighting in Karate

I remember being at this great seminar once, covering all kinds of nifty kata application principles, when, suddenly, it all turned into something none of us expected: BJJ. Not that I have anything against Brazilian Jiu-jitsu (sic) or other ground based grappling arts, but last time I checked...

www.karatebyjesse.com

I have no issues with ompaloomas for SDers it puts the guy out of your guard in to either turtle or their back.

Which is a much better stand up option than a technical stand up from guard.

 

[skribs]

Jesse is an accomplished karate-ka. His brother is an MMA fighter. Not sure how accomplished, but I think he's a pro.

Which suggests that Jesse has a lot of experience in standup and his brother has a lot of experience on the ground. Doesn't necessarily mean Jesse has a lot of experience on the ground.

It could be that once every few months, Jesse and Oliver get together and Oliver shows him ground stuff. Over the course of 20 years, that would be like 80 sessions, which is enough to be a 2-stripe white belt in my gym.

I've been doing martial arts for 18 years and I'm a 1-stripe blue belt in BJJ, and sometimes I feel that is too high rank for me.

 

[HighKick]

Every student is going to represent the school they train at to a certain extent, even the white belts, but I get what you're saying, the black belts are going to get the most attention from observers. If somebody is visiting the dojo and watching a class and considering the possibility of joining they are going to be watching the black belts the most. Well they will probably also be watching the brown belts a good deal too. In many dojos brown comes right before black so the brown belts are supposed to be almost as good as the black belts and have almost as much knowledge and skill as the black belts, some of the brown belts might even have just as much knowledge and skill as the black belts but are still wearing brown belts because they haven't been promoted yet depending on what kind of system the dojo has for rank promotion. So the brown belts are going to get almost as much attention as the black belts.

So the knowledge that is required to be a brown belt should be almost as high as that which is required for a black belt and while the black belt requirements should of course be harder than the brown belt requirements since it is a higher belt, they shouldn't be that much harder as it is just one rank above.

I agree with your post for the most part. Red/brown is usually the peak of fitness for most people and is a very exciting time leading up to black belt.
It is true that a red/brown belt will know much of the material of a black belt, there is a considerable maturation process that is still taking place.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I agree with your post for the most part. Red/brown is usually the peak of fitness for most people and is a very exciting time leading up to black belt.
It is true that a red/brown belt will know much of the material of a black belt, there is a considerable maturation process that is still taking place.

Well the knowledge and skill for black belt should be higher than brown belt but not much higher, after all you're not going to try to teach somebody calculus right after they've learned basic addition. For black belt to be much harder than brown belt, I see that as not being balanced and from what I've learned in the martial arts, much of it is about balance, both physical balance and balance in your whole life. For black belt to be much harder than brown belt, that would contradict the lesson in balance.

That being said, it shouldn't be disrespectful to ask about testing for the black belt, if your dojo has tests, if you're a brown belt. When you're a brown belt you're at the bridge to black belt so it's time to cross it. After all, you're asking to test for the black belt as a brown belt, not as a white belt or a green belt.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Well the knowledge and skill for black belt should be higher than brown belt but not much higher, after all you're not going to try to teach somebody calculus right after they've learned basic addition. For black belt to be much harder than brown belt, I see that as not being balanced and from what I've learned in the martial arts, much of it is about balance, both physical balance and balance in your whole life. For black belt to be much harder than brown belt, that would contradict the lesson in balance.

That being said, it shouldn't be disrespectful to ask about testing for the black belt, if your dojo has tests, if you're a brown belt. When you're a brown belt you're at the bridge to black belt so it's time to cross it. After all, you're asking to test for the black belt as a brown belt, not as a white belt or a green belt.

The problem is that you're basing this on the notion that "black belt is just another rank in Japan," without actually citing any first-hand experience or written policies on the matter.

I equate your suggestion more to claiming that it should be no more difficult for a top tier middle-manager to be promoted to an executive than it is to be promoted within the levels of middle-management; which to anyone is going to sound foolish.

Within any linear rank system, there's going to be a line drawn within it somewhere, where promotion criteria changes. In the military, you'll find that promotion from Colonel to Brigadier General is vastly different from promotions within officer ranks below that; for example.

Why is it such a bad thing that martial arts has this?

 

[HighKick]

Well the knowledge and skill for black belt should be higher than brown belt but not much higher, after all you're not going to try to teach somebody calculus right after they've learned basic addition. For black belt to be much harder than brown belt, I see that as not being balanced and from what I've learned in the martial arts, much of it is about balance, both physical balance and balance in your whole life. For black belt to be much harder than brown belt, that would contradict the lesson in balance.

That being said, it shouldn't be disrespectful to ask about testing for the black belt, if your dojo has tests, if you're a brown belt. When you're a brown belt you're at the bridge to black belt so it's time to cross it. After all, you're asking to test for the black belt as a brown belt, not as a white belt or a green belt.

So many variables here you are not considering.
A person going to class 1-2 times per week at 1st Gup should take longer to get to 1st Dan black belt testing versus a person going 4-5 times/week.
The way you said it there is no variance from person to person, which is just incorrect.
Age, skill, and drive (and/or lack there-of) will often affect a testing, especially BB testing's. Some people need more of a push than others. Sometimes people who are exceptional are pushed what may appear very hard for the average person.
What pushes a 45-year old may be a walk in the park for an 18-year old. This is a Big part of what make testing's personal and specific to the individual..

By far, my 3rd Dan testing was the most difficult test for me, and I was already in my late 20's.

 

[isshinryuronin]

By far, my 3rd Dan testing was the most difficult test for me, and I was already in my late 20's.

My 1st and 5th dan tests were the toughest. The 1st because it lasted 2 days and I really wanted black belt. The 5th was difficult because I really wanted to earn Sensei's respect and justify his faith in me. Two completely different motivations (one centered on me, the other centered on my sensei) but both equally demanding in their own way.

 

[drop bear]

Which suggests that Jesse has a lot of experience in standup and his brother has a lot of experience on the ground. Doesn't necessarily mean Jesse has a lot of experience on the ground.

It could be that once every few months, Jesse and Oliver get together and Oliver shows him ground stuff. Over the course of 20 years, that would be like 80 sessions, which is enough to be a 2-stripe white belt in my gym.

I've been doing martial arts for 18 years and I'm a 1-stripe blue belt in BJJ, and sometimes I feel that is too high rank for me.

I could probably prove boxing is better than kickboxing if they gave me a beginner in which to do it.

If you were looking to put an unranked guy in a bjj match. MMA fighter generally means blue belt at least by the way.

In fact if he is going to suggest that his stand up at a black belt level is more applicable. He should really have demonstrated that with grappling at a black belt level.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I could probably prove boxing is better than kickboxing if they gave me a beginner in which to do it.

If you were looking to put an unranked guy in a bjj match. MMA fighter generally means blue belt at least by the way.

In fact if he is going to suggest that his stand up at a black belt level is more applicable. He should really have demonstrated that with grappling at a black belt level.

Do you happen to have any info of what happened in the tournament? It's entirely possible he crosstrained plenty and was above white belt, based on his history/brothers history, but there are also plenty of people that really aren't anywhere above white belt in BJJ and use stand-up grappling + striking to cover that up.

If we know if he curbstomped his opponents in the tournament, he was probably sandbagging. If he didn't win, or won but had to put a fight against his opponents (or even better if there's video to see) that can tell us if he was accurately placed.

 

[drop bear]

Do you happen to have any info of what happened in the tournament? It's entirely possible he crosstrained plenty and was above white belt, based on his history/brothers history, but there are also plenty of people that really aren't anywhere above white belt in BJJ and use stand-up grappling + striking to cover that up.

If we know if he curbstomped his opponents in the tournament, he was probably sandbagging. If he didn't win, or won but had to put a fight against his opponents (or even better if there's video to see) that can tell us if he was accurately placed.

He dodged around the guy for most of the round, got warned and threatened with a D.Q. So then he just walked in to Mount and subbed him in the final minutes with an Ezekiel

So yeah. Guard retention doesn't work in the street either.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well the knowledge and skill for black belt should be higher than brown belt but not much higher, after all you're not going to try to teach somebody calculus right after they've learned basic addition. For black belt to be much harder than brown belt, I see that as not being balanced and from what I've learned in the martial arts, much of it is about balance, both physical balance and balance in your whole life. For black belt to be much harder than brown belt, that would contradict the lesson in balance.

That being said, it shouldn't be disrespectful to ask about testing for the black belt, if your dojo has tests, if you're a brown belt. When you're a brown belt you're at the bridge to black belt so it's time to cross it. After all, you're asking to test for the black belt as a brown belt, not as a white belt or a green belt.

I think there's a lot of "should" in this post. There's a lot of room for different approaches, IMO. I'll also point out there's a lot of subjectivity in "higher...but not much higher". There's a pretty big difference between brown and black in the system I came up in. In that system, the differences between rank are progressive, so the big gap between brown and black is in line with the ever-growing gaps between successive ranks - it's more than the gap between purple and brown, but (arguably) less than the gap between shodan and nidan.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The problem is that you're basing this on the notion that "black belt is just another rank in Japan," without actually citing any first-hand experience or written policies on the matter.

It's what I would read about in martial arts magazines, back when I would get Inside Karate magazine which stopped being published in 1999, many of their articles talked about training in the USA vs training in Japan.

I equate your suggestion more to claiming that it should be no more difficult for a top tier middle-manager to be promoted to an executive than it is to be promoted within the levels of middle-management; which to anyone is going to sound foolish.

Within any linear rank system, there's going to be a line drawn within it somewhere, where promotion criteria changes. In the military, you'll find that promotion from Colonel to Brigadier General is vastly different from promotions within officer ranks below that; for example.

You do have a point although I wouldn't see first degree black belt as being equivalent to an executive or a Brigadier General, what I see as an equivalent to those things would be ranks such as fifth or sixth degree. And yes, going up the dan ranks does get harder, and takes longer, the higher you go up.

Why is it such a bad thing that martial arts has this?

I don't see such a problem with it in the higher dan ranks but getting promoted from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan shouldn't be much harder, or take much longer, than being promoted from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu, if it does then it would make sense to have ranks in between 1st Kyu and 1st Dan.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So many variables here you are not considering.
A person going to class 1-2 times per week at 1st Gup should take longer to get to 1st Dan black belt testing versus a person going 4-5 times/week.

I believe that Gup is what they call the ranks below black belt in Taekwondo, in Japanese Karate they call such ranks Kyu and with the Kyu ranks they go backwards in number, the lower the number the higher the Kyu rank so 1st Kyu is the highest Kyu rank and is the rank right before 1st degree black belt which is also called 1st Dan and the Dan ranks go forward in number, the higher the number the higher the Dan rank.

Anyway Im talking about if somebody who goes to class an x number of times per week and they keep going to class that same number of times that week after making 1st Kyu or 1st Gup, that being the case it shouldn't take them much longer to get from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan (or 1st Gup to 1st Dan) than it took them to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu.

Obviously this will vary from person to person but Im talking about the same person who doesn't alter their workout schedule.

The way you said it there is no variance from person to person, which is just incorrect.

Of course there's variance but Im talking about how hard and how long it would take an individual to get from 1st Kyu to 1st Dan in proportion to how hard it was and how long it took that same individual to get from 2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu, to compare that individual to somebody else would be apples and oranges in what Im talking about.

Age, skill, and drive (and/or lack there-of) will often affect a testing, especially BB testing's. Some people need more of a push than others. Sometimes people who are exceptional are pushed what may appear very hard for the average person.

Again, Im not talking about comparing different people, see above.

What pushes a 45-year old may be a walk in the park for an 18-year old. This is a Big part of what make testing's personal and specific to the individual..

Not necessarily, when I was 45 I was stronger than when I was 18, and now Im stronger still.

By far, my 3rd Dan testing was the most difficult test for me, and I was already in my late 20's.

So have you gone to 4th Dan and beyond?

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think there's a lot of "should" in this post.

Im just stating my take on it.

There's a lot of room for different approaches, IMO. I'll also point out there's a lot of subjectivity in "higher...but not much higher".

I like to hear different points of view.

There's a pretty big difference between brown and black in the system I came up in. In that system, the differences between rank are progressive, so the big gap between brown and black is in line with the ever-growing gaps between successive ranks - it's more than the gap between purple and brown, but (arguably) less than the gap between shodan and nidan.

Well to me it just doesn't seem proper to have too big of a gap between 1st Kyu brown and 1st Dan black, if there is a big gap it would make sense to have ranks in between 1st Kyu brown and 1st Dan black, wouldn't it?