Master have right to fail everyone at BB Test?

[Simfers]

Yeah, it's a tip I gave to a lot of people, including some who were going for various dan grades, and I always got this quizzical look back, like they'd never thought of it before.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yeah, but by black belt you should also have enough tests to be desensitized to those nerves, or at least know how to push through it.

Test anxiety is more common than you may think. These folks never become "desensitized" to nerves. Mrs. Dog has test anxiety. An example...

We were renewing our ACLS provider cards. This is something we've done every 2 years for the last 40 years, and covers skills and knowledge that we use every single day. Also, we're both certified ACLS instructors. Doesn't stop her from thinking she's going to fail the test.

 

[skribs]

Test anxiety is more common than you may think. These folks never become "desensitized" to nerves. Mrs. Dog has test anxiety. An example...

We were renewing our ACLS provider cards. This is something we've done every 2 years for the last 40 years, and covers skills and knowledge that we use every single day. Also, we're both certified ACLS instructors. Doesn't stop her from thinking she's going to fail the test.

Gonna ask you the same question I asked HighKick: Can she get through it and pass?

 

[HighKick]

Do you at least know how to push through it?

Usually. If it is a Q&A session or a dynamic environment, it is pretty easy for me. I never liked having to stand there and give an actual speech though.
I have to give a eulogy tomorrow. Not a fan.

 

[skribs]

Usually. If it is a Q&A session or a dynamic environment, it is pretty easy for me. I never liked having to stand there and give an actual speech though.
I have to give a eulogy tomorrow. Not a fan.

That was the second half of my point. Those that are black belts that still have test anxiety at the very least know how to push through it. I find it very unlikely that someone will get to the black belt test and just freeze, because they've already learned how to push through those nerves.

 

[HighKick]

That was the second half of my point. Those that are black belts that still have test anxiety at the very least know how to push through it. I find it very unlikely that someone will get to the black belt test and just freeze, because they've already learned how to push through those nerves.

Agree. Nerves, anxiety, and adversity can work for you or against. Much of the journey is learning how to use them to your advantage.
Ironically, I was probably more nervous at my MDK 7th Dan testing because there was a Lot or oral exercise involved. It was in front of 200 or so total strangers, some of which English was not their first language.
Great memories though.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I've only seen it two ways:

1. The test is on everything from yellow belt and all the way up to the rank you're testing for, or
2. the rank you're testing for only.

Either way, you know ahead of time.

At my first dojo you COULD be tested on everything from yellow belt up to the rank you're testing for but that didn't mean you would be tested on everything on everything from yellow belt up to the rank you were testing for, unless of course you were testing for yellow belt which was the belt right after white.

You would have to be able to do the kata for the rank you were testing for and in addition to that you could be required to do any of the katas for any of the previous ranks and you wouldn't know beforehand which katas you would be required to do. You would also have to do combinations, two man drills, and sparring.

Also when performing in a test you have to do more than just know the moves, you have to be able to do them with a certain level of skill. Just knowing how to do a kata, being able to do the kata completely through, is just the first step. You have to do the kata with skill if you want to pass the test and just how much skill was required depended on the rank you were testing for. Obviously tests for higher ranks required more skill.

In that sense martial arts rank tests can be said to be harder than academic tests which just require you to know the material. If you're taking a history or math test its just a matter of knowing all the facts for the chapter(s) you're being tested on (for history) or knowing the procedure for doing the problems (for math) but with martial arts its not just a matter of knowing the material but being able to perform the material with a certain level of skill.

Sure, of all the dojos that exist, there has to be at least one that refunds to the fees to those who fail. Do I think they're numerous enough to be worth mentioning? Hardly.

As for the ones that don't charge a testing fee, the level of integrity that's often boasted to be behind free tests isn't very congruent with allowing students to test who aren't ready.

At my first dojo at one time they did refund you if you failed a test although they stopped doing that. They didn't charge much anyway though, the testing fees for yellow belt up to first degree black belt were anywhere from $5 to $55 depending on what rank you were testing for, the higher the rank the higher the testing fee as more material had to be covered.

The point is that just because students can test at their own discretion when they run tests doesn't mean that the tests are easy or that belts are easy to get.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yes, but it still happens. Some people have really, really bad stage fright in certain conditions.
I am weird about it. In a competition environment, I seldom get rattled. Talking to a room full of engineering nerds I am completely comfortable. Put me in front of a bunch and Master instructors and GM's and I still get a little nervous.

That's part of what the test is all about, a student has to be able to perform under pressure. When you're taking a test and you know you can fail and you know you have to do well enough in order to pass, you've got that pressure you've got to deal with. Being able to deal with such pressure is part of what it takes to pass the test and is part of what the test is all about.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Whenever I tested for a belt, I always imagined that instead of being there to evaluate me, the examiners were attending a seminar I was giving. They were there to LEARN from ME. Put me in a position of confidence right away, and once I got started, momentum carried me through to the end. It's worked pretty well!

That's part of what testing is all about, coming up with ways to deal with the pressure you're under when you test, which according to your post you did just fine. More power to you.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That was the second half of my point. Those that are black belts that still have test anxiety at the very least know how to push through it. I find it very unlikely that someone will get to the black belt test and just freeze, because they've already learned how to push through those nerves.

With the black belt test they can be much stricter than they were with previous tests for lower ranks, and that can contribute to the anxiety and pressure the student is under, which can make it much harder to push through those nerves that the student was able to do when testing for lower ranks.

 

[Hot Lunch]

At my first dojo you COULD be tested on everything from yellow belt up to the rank you're testing for but that didn't mean you would be tested on everything on everything from yellow belt up to the rank you were testing for, unless of course you were testing for yellow belt which was the belt right after white.

You would have to be able to do the kata for the rank you were testing for and in addition to that you could be required to do any of the katas for any of the previous ranks and you wouldn't know beforehand which katas you would be required to do. You would also have to do combinations, two man drills, and sparring.

Even then, here's the cool thing: imagine there's a biology test coming up. The teacher tells you there are going to be 10 questions. He then hands you a list of 20 questions. He then points out the specific three questions that will definitely be on the test. Then he tells you that the remaining 7 questions can be any of the other 17 on the list he gave you.

Also, you're allowed to look at your classmates and copy them during the test.

This will NEVER happen in school. But, even in the case of "this may or may not be on your test," this is the case in martial arts schools that you're describing.

Also when performing in a test you have to do more than just know the moves, you have to be able to do them with a certain level of skill. Just knowing how to do a kata, being able to do the kata completely through, is just the first step. You have to do the kata with skill if you want to pass the test and just how much skill was required depended on the rank you were testing for. Obviously tests for higher ranks required more skill.

In that sense martial arts rank tests can be said to be harder than academic tests which just require you to know the material. If you're taking a history or math test its just a matter of knowing all the facts for the chapter(s) you're being tested on (for history) or knowing the procedure for doing the problems (for math) but with martial arts its not just a matter of knowing the material but being able to perform the material with a certain level of skill.

Which isn't hard. Especially considering the fact that age, body type, disabilities, and other factors that limit physical ability, etc are taken into consideration when students are being evaluated. Is a 60 year old man with bad joints going to be expected to do the jump properly in Kusanku Sho? Probably not.

The number of students I've seen fail for improper execution is a small fraction of the number I've seen who've failed for not knowing the material.

The point is that just because students can test at their own discretion when they run tests doesn't mean that the tests are easy or that belts are easy to get.

MY point is that in martial arts training, you have far less excuses for failing a test than you do in academics. Yes, the pass rate in martial arts going to be close to 100%; where it might only be 80% in academics (that 80% is an arbitrary number, but the point is that it's significantly lower than in martial arts). Understand that difficulty of tests isn't the only factor at play here. We also have to consider the fact that academic education is compulsory up to a certain level, so a good amount of the students don't want to be there. So they either don't care whether they pass or fail, or they're making just enough effort to pass and get it over with. Whereas, martial arts training is 100% voluntary, so that attitude is far less likely or non-existent (at least with adults).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Test anxiety is more common than you may think. These folks never become "desensitized" to nerves. Mrs. Dog has test anxiety. An example...

We were renewing our ACLS provider cards. This is something we've done every 2 years for the last 40 years, and covers skills and knowledge that we use every single day. Also, we're both certified ACLS instructors. Doesn't stop her from thinking she's going to fail the test.

Some of us are - for reasons I don't understand - more or less prone to test anxiety. I sometimes underperfom for a lack of that boost a little anxiety can create. Oddly, in very specific circumstances (mostly, where I'm highly qualified, and have other highly qualified people watching to give feedback), I get much worse anxiety than I've ever had for tests.

When I was testing students, I tried to allow for anxiety in how the test was designed, administered, and assessed. In some ways, some tests were intended to induce some anxiety that would allow folks to learn to deal with it in useful ways, where those skills might help them elsewhere in life - like giving oral presentations.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's part of what the test is all about, a student has to be able to perform under pressure. When you're taking a test and you know you can fail and you know you have to do well enough in order to pass, you've got that pressure you've got to deal with. Being able to deal with such pressure is part of what it takes to pass the test and is part of what the test is all about.

I would say that this brings up a question: if a person has the skills and knowledge, and the test format induces anxiety that causes them to perform poorly, what is that test actually testing for that person?

It's unlikely they'll need to perform or explain to a board of ranking instructors, in front of a group of their peers, at any point other than during training. So, should that hold them back from rank?

 

[Badhabits]

I'm one of those people with test anxiety. It's more generalized than that but kicks in bad in testing. Or tournaments. Doing kata at a tournament, I'll literally not even be able to get the kata name out of my mouth for the judges. Then proceed to screw up a kata I could do in my sleep.
After studying several arts and doing a good deal of belt testing, it hasn't really gotten any better. Some teachers penalized for it at testing, others didn't. If rank was based only on performance at testing I wouldn't even be allowed to wear a white belt. It's not even about pressure, it's like a short circuit in the brain.

 

[HighKick]

That's part of what the test is all about, a student has to be able to perform under pressure. When you're taking a test and you know you can fail and you know you have to do well enough in order to pass, you've got that pressure you've got to deal with. Being able to deal with such pressure is part of what it takes to pass the test and is part of what the test is all about.

I said: "Put me in front of a bunch and Master instructors and GM's and I still get a little nervous."

I feel I meant this differently from the way you took it, and yes, maybe 'nervous' was a poor choice of words. 'Excitable' is a synonym for nervous. In certain environments, get very focused on performance and have an excessive desire to over-perform. Not aggression mind you. If not held in check, this can work against me. Just like anxiety can work for you or against you.

 

[HighKick]

I would say that this brings up a question: if a person has the skills and knowledge, and the test format induces anxiety that causes them to perform poorly, what is that test actually testing for that person?

It's unlikely they'll need to perform or explain to a board of ranking instructors, in front of a group of their peers, at any point other than during training. So, should that hold them back from rank?

I feel it would depend on the severity and the specifics of the gaff(s). It would definitely be a matrix response on behalf of the testing body, hopefully removing as much subjectivity as possible.
A white/yellow belt who has to restart a form because of obvious nerves but has the right demeanor and does eventually get the form right, no problem. A higher belt (any belt really) that messes up and really loses character and ends up doing the form poorly, may be a different result.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Even then, here's the cool thing: imagine there's a biology test coming up. The teacher tells you there are going to be 10 questions. He then hands you a list of 20 questions. He then points out the specific three questions that will definitely be on the test. Then he tells you that the remaining 7 questions can be any of the other 17 on the list he gave you.

Also, you're allowed to look at your classmates and copy them during the test.

This will NEVER happen in school. But, even in the case of "this may or may not be on your test," this is the case in martial arts schools that you're describing.

Except for the part where you're allowed to look at your classmates and copy them, what you're saying isn't that far off from how academic tests work from my experience. I've never had a teacher hand me a list of questions which could be on a test but I've had teachers tell me what chapters in the textbook the test will be on and that any of the material covered in said chapters could be on the test, and in some cases pointing out specific material that definitely will be on the test.

Which isn't hard.

That depends on the dojo and the instructor. Some instructors, the good ones in my opinion, are going to have very high skill expectations particularly if you're testing for any of the higher ranks.

Especially considering the fact that age, body type, disabilities, and other factors that limit physical ability, etc are taken into consideration when students are being evaluated. Is a 60 year old man with bad joints going to be expected to do the jump properly in Kusanku Sho? Probably not.

Again, that depends on the dojo and the instructor. In some dojos that might be expected in which case a student who is not able to do certain stuff might never get past a certain rank. Or, at some dojos, if you're not able to do certain stuff you can be expected to do other stuff in place of the stuff you're not able to do as compensation.

The number of students I've seen fail for improper execution is a small fraction of the number I've seen who've failed for not knowing the material.

That's your experience, my experience is different.

MY point is that in martial arts training, you have far less excuses for failing a test than you do in academics. Yes, the pass rate in martial arts going to be close to 100%; where it might only be 80% in academics (that 80% is an arbitrary number, but the point is that it's significantly lower than in martial arts).

That depends on the dojo, and also on the academic school that we're talking about. Some dojos have harder tests than others and the same is true with academic schools.

Understand that difficulty of tests isn't the only factor at play here. We also have to consider the fact that academic education is compulsory up to a certain level, so a good amount of the students don't want to be there. So they either don't care whether they pass or fail, or they're making just enough effort to pass and get it over with. Whereas, martial arts training is 100% voluntary, so that attitude is far less likely or non-existent (at least with adults).

You do have a point there, people who train in the martial arts most of the time are doing it willingly unlike academic education in which case there will be a greater number of students who don't want to be there but are required to be there just because of how the system is run so as such, people who train in the martial arts are often more motivated than people who go through compulsory education, but you also should realize that just because somebody takes up the martial arts doesn't mean they want to take tests or earn belts, and as such that could also contribute to motivation, or lack of it, when it comes to passing belt tests.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I would say that this brings up a question: if a person has the skills and knowledge, and the test format induces anxiety that causes them to perform poorly, what is that test actually testing for that person.

As I've described earlier in this thread, exactly what the person is being tested for depends on the dojo and the instructor, but from my experience, from some of the tests I've taken, you're being tested on your knowledge, skill, AND your ability to function under pressure. Mental fortitude plays a big part. If you have psychological obstacles such as anxiety then you have to overcome it, mentally. The martial arts is not just physical, it's also very mental, particularly at higher levels.

It's unlikely they'll need to perform or explain to a board of ranking instructors, in front of a group of their peers, at any point other than during training. So, should that hold them back from rank?

Yes, at least if you're at some of the kinds of dojos I've been to. As I said, at such dojos you're also being tested on your ability to function under pressure and to deal with stuff such as anxiety, to mentally overcome it.

 

[Hanshi]

Way back I've had rather "easy" tests where one just had to know the material. I've also had really, really rough ones. I've never been a "real confident" type and always felt "unworthy". Not a good way prosper maybe, but it is what it is. I always relied on my instructors and superiors opinion yet still have on occasion questioned their decisions.

As an instructor we definitely leaned toward pretty tough testing. I have heard black belt tests I've given sometimes referred to as "brutal". But I survived a few myself and figured anyone else can too. There were always other black belt examiners included and we would confer. I don't think I ever failed anyone testing for black belt. In fact I never let anyone test unless I already considered him/her a black belt already. A couple of times I did have to pause a test for "private counseling" when it appeared the student was "in turmoil". The counseling was done by another black and never by me. In both instances it worked wonders. I never tested to check if the student had the knowledge and skill but always to find how badly they wanted to join the black belt level.

The idea of testing someone for black belt and failing them is anathema to me. In my dojo I had the last say and never farmed the decision out to someone who didn't know me and my dojo.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Except for the part where you're allowed to look at your classmates and copy them, what you're saying isn't that far off from how academic tests work from my experience.

You mean your school teachers allowed you to look at classmate's test and copy them?

I've never had a teacher hand me a list of questions which could be on a test but I've had teachers tell me what chapters in the textbook the test will be on and that any of the material covered in said chapters could be on the test, and in some cases pointing out specific material that definitely will be on the test.

And tests in martial arts are like the former. You don't have to read a whole 5-page chapter that only two questions may come from. No, you actually know what those two questions are going to be. Now those two questions may not be on the test, but you know what those two questions are and that they could be on the test. That's martial arts.

That depends on the dojo and the instructor. Some instructors, the good ones in my opinion, are going to have very high skill expectations particularly if you're testing for any of the higher ranks.

Even better if they assess whether or not you're ready for the test, and decide whether you take it or not.

Again, that depends on the dojo and the instructor. In some dojos that might be expected in which case a student who is not able to do certain stuff might never get past a certain rank.

Not saying that this doesn't exist, but I've never seen it before. In fact, there are people who've achieved high technical dan rankings with missing limbs. You're probably many times more likely to see that than someone be held back because of their physical disabilities.

That depends on the dojo, and also on the academic school that we're talking about. Some dojos have harder tests than others and the same is true with academic schools.

Nevertheless, martial arts tests are far easier to prepare for. At the most, the requirements for your belt rank will take up one page. And if you could be tested on things from lower ranks, it's more likely than not going to be on the one page for your rank.

Whereas for academic tests, you've got to read several dozen pages from a few chapters to prepare for the test. And that's just for one subject. Multiply that times 5 or 6, or however many subjects you have.

You do have a point there, people who train in the martial arts most of the time are doing it willingly unlike academic education in which case there will be a greater number of students who don't want to be there but are required to be there just because of how the system is run so as such, people who train in the martial arts are often more motivated than people who go through compulsory education, but you also should realize that just because somebody takes up the martial arts doesn't mean they want to take tests or earn belts, and as such that could also contribute to motivation, or lack of it, when it comes to passing belt tests.

This makes zero sense.

First off, college is 100% voluntary. How many people do you know who are in college (of their own volition), that don't care about passing tests and moving on to more advanced courses - and ultimately, getting their degree?