Master have right to fail everyone at BB Test?

[PhotonGuy]

Right, but in the scenarios being discussed, the instructor is refusing to disclose that. So now what?

Then I would ask him why he isn't disclosing it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Business or not, you don't put people into the test if they aren't ready, unless there's a good lesson they can learn from it.

That depends on whatever system the instructor has for rank advancement. Every instructor has their own system, but with tests the very purpose of tests is to see if the student is ready to promote. So with tests, that's how the instructor, and the student, knows whether or not the student is ready to promote, depending on if they pass or fail the test.

 

[skribs]

That depends on whatever system the instructor has for rank advancement. Every instructor has their own system, but with tests the very purpose of tests is to see if the student is ready to promote. So with tests, that's how the instructor, and the student, knows whether or not the student is ready to promote, depending on if they pass or fail the test.

Incorrect.

The test is not how an instructor knows a student is ready to promote. If a student is testing, the instructor should have already done plenty of due diligence to make sure they are ready to promote. From the instructors perspective, at this point the test is a formality.

That's not to say failure isn't possible. But it shouldn't be the norm.

If your instructor is waiting until testing day to find out if you're ready, that's a bad instructor.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In that case I would kick them out, failing wouldn't be the primary concern.

No second chances with you? You can't think of any circumstance that would lead to a decision to fail a group?
I think the circumstances are unlikely, but they could happen.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Incorrect.

The test is not how an instructor knows a student is ready to promote. If a student is testing, the instructor should have already done plenty of due diligence to make sure they are ready to promote. From the instructors perspective, at this point the test is a formality.

That's not to say failure isn't possible. But it shouldn't be the norm.

If your instructor is waiting until testing day to find out if you're ready, that's a bad instructor.

As I said before every instructor has their own system so it would be inaccurate to say that every instructor functions exactly as you claim but if an instructor knows a student is ready to promote there is no need to test the student, the instructor can just promote the student without testing them if the instructor knows the student is ready to promote.

If a test is done just as a formality or done so a student can show off what they've learned then it isn't really a test it's a demonstration. For it to be a test there has to be the possibility of failure. If failure is possible, even if it isn't the norm but if it happens at all, that means the instructor doesn't 100% know that a student is ready to promote.

 

[skribs]

As I said before every instructor has their own system so it would be inaccurate to say that every instructor functions exactly as you claim but if an instructor knows a student is ready to promote there is no need to test the student, the instructor can just promote the student without testing them if the instructor knows the student is ready to promote.

If a test is done just as a formality or done so a student can show off what they've learned then it isn't really a test it's a demonstration. For it to be a test there has to be the possibility of failure. If failure is possible, even if it isn't the norm but if it happens at all, that means the instructor doesn't 100% know that a student is ready to promote.

What you say is technically true but functionally incorrect. If the failure rate is 0.5%, then it's not really about testing to see if the student is ready to test. If 99.5% pass, then generally speaking students are ready to test.

It's like saying that dogs have 4 legs. Technically some have 3, or 2, or maybe less. Maybe some have 5 or more due to some mutation. But generally speaking, the vast majority of dogs have 4 legs, and they were [designed|evolved] to have 4 legs. Tests are designed to be passed. Failures are outliers.

That holds true at the instructor level. By and large, this is how martial arts with tests do things. Some arts don't have belts (i.e. boxing), some have belts but generally not tests (i.e. BJJ), but those are out of scope. Even BJJ gyms that have tests follow this method: the true test is if you're ready for the formal testing.

 

[PhotonGuy]

What you say is technically true but functionally incorrect. If the failure rate is 0.5%, then it's not really about testing to see if the student is ready to test. If 99.5% pass, then generally speaking students are ready to test.

It's like saying that dogs have 4 legs. Technically some have 3, or 2, or maybe less. Maybe some have 5 or more due to some mutation. But generally speaking, the vast majority of dogs have 4 legs, and they were [designed|evolved] to have 4 legs. Tests are designed to be passed. Failures are outliers.

If all tests were meant to. be passed that means that everybody in school, or at least the vast vast majority of students, 95.5% as you put it, would be straight A students or at least would never fail any classes. From my experience back in the days when I was still in school I certainly know that 95.5% of all students did not get straight As and there were students who failed tests and who even failed classes and that the failure rate was greater than 0.5%.

Now if you specifically want to talk about martial arts tests and not other types of tests (such as academic tests) whether or not such tests are designed to be passed and whether or not 95.5% of all students pass that would depend on the dojo. Maybe at your dojo tests are designed to be passed and maybe at your dojo 95.5% of all students pass but not all dojos function as yours. I've known dojos where its up to the student if they want to test when they run tests but there was no guarantee that they would pass and in fact, there was a failure rate that was greater than 0.5%. To make the blanket statement that students passing tests is as common as dogs with four legs (as opposed to dogs with more or less than four legs) is inaccurate. That might be how it is at your dojo but that doesn't mean that that's how it is at all dojos.

That holds true at the instructor level. By and large, this is how martial arts with tests do things. Some arts don't have belts (i.e. boxing), some have belts but generally not tests (i.e. BJJ), but those are out of scope. Even BJJ gyms that have tests follow this method: the true test is if you're ready for the formal testing.

In regards to whether or not students are ready for formal testing you've got to define what it means for a student to be ready for formal testing. Based on your posts, I would conclude that you consider a student who has a 95.5% chance of passing as being ready to test but that is just your definition, not the definition of all instructors. Other instructors might have different definitions of what it means to be ready to formally test. Some of the people on this forum give the impression that they think all instructors have the exact same system. I've said it before and I'll say it again, every instructor has their own system on how students go up in rank and many instructors have systems that are very different than systems that many other instructors have. Such systems vary, a lot.

 

[skribs]

If all tests were meant to. be passed that means that everybody in school, or at least the vast vast majority of students, 95.5% as you put it, would be straight A students or at least would never fail any classes.

There are so many things wrong with this sentence alone.

1. As I said on post #41, there's a difference between tests in school and tests in martial arts. Tests in school are usually done on pace (i.e. if you're in a fall class, midterms will be in the first week of November for everyone). Tests in martial arts are usually done when you're ready.
2. There are many grades that aren't A's but are passing. D is a passing grade. I think for most people, C or above is fine, and they want to avoid Ds and Fs. A lot of folks are A/B students.
3. Even for those that get Fs on assignments or tests, you can still pass a class, as long as you have enough non-F grades weighted such that you can get a D in the class.
4. In school, if a lot of students are failing, it's generally blamed on the teacher. Either they're not doing a good job of teaching, or their assessments are too difficult for the class. Either way, it's usually the teacher's fault if students are routinely unprepared.

You started off on such a bad foot that I didn't even bother reading the rest of the post.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The major difference between tests in school and tests in martial arts is you don't know what questions are going to be on the school tests (unless you find a way to steal it from your teacher's desk). In martial arts, you know exactly what "questions" (i.e., what you will be required to demonstrate) will be on every exam up to the highest technical dan grade.

Because of this, you have far less excuses for failing a test in martial arts than in school.

Any dojo that allows all students to test, regardless of whether or not the instructor has assessed that they are likely to pass or fail, is one that I'd steer clear of. That just means they're only interested in collecting test fees.

 

[HighKick]

Why was he testing them if they weren’t ready? IMHO a person taking a black belt treat should have been prepared and evaluated by the instructor and only if they were truly ready should they be subjected to the test.

Agree. A little off topic from the OP, but especially at the BB level, the person should be reasonably vetted before testing. But the testing environment can rattle some people enough to still fail or at least do poorly. This in itself has good value if approached the right way.
To the OP, does an instructor have the 'right' to fail everyone? I suppose, but much, much more would have to be known/explained to support such a move. More often statements like that are just posturing.

 

[PhotonGuy]

There are so many things wrong with this sentence alone.

1. As I said on post #41, there's a difference between tests in school and tests in martial arts. Tests in school are usually done on pace (i.e. if you're in a fall class, midterms will be in the first week of November for everyone). Tests in martial arts are usually done when you're ready.
2. There are many grades that aren't A's but are passing. D is a passing grade. I think for most people, C or above is fine, and they want to avoid Ds and Fs. A lot of folks are A/B students.
3. Even for those that get Fs on assignments or tests, you can still pass a class, as long as you have enough non-F grades weighted such that you can get a D in the class.
4. In school, if a lot of students are failing, it's generally blamed on the teacher. Either they're not doing a good job of teaching, or their assessments are too difficult for the class. Either way, it's usually the teacher's fault if students are routinely unprepared.

Obviously martial arts tests are different than academic tests but if you had read the rest of my post you would see that I specifically do address martial arts tests, after my first paragraph.

You started off on such a bad foot that I didn't even bother reading the rest of the post.

So you didn't read my entire post. Then I will repost the rest of what I said in post #87 here and we can forget what I said about academic tests.

Now if you specifically want to talk about martial arts tests and not other types of tests (such as academic tests) whether or not such tests are designed to be passed and whether or not 95.5% of all students pass that would depend on the dojo. Maybe at your dojo tests are designed to be passed and maybe at your dojo 95.5% of all students pass but not all dojos function as yours. I've known dojos where its up to the student if they want to test when they run tests but there was no guarantee that they would pass and in fact, there was a failure rate that was greater than 0.5%. To make the blanket statement that students passing tests is as common as dogs with four legs (as opposed to dogs with more or less than four legs) is inaccurate. That might be how it is at your dojo but that doesn't mean that that's how it is at all dojos.

That holds true at the instructor level. By and large, this is how martial arts with tests do things. Some arts don't have belts (i.e. boxing), some have belts but generally not tests (i.e. BJJ), but those are out of scope. Even BJJ gyms that have tests follow this method: the true test is if you're ready for the formal testing.

In regards to whether or not students are ready for formal testing you've got to define what it means for a student to be ready for formal testing. Based on your posts, I would conclude that you consider a student who has a 95.5% chance of passing as being ready to test but that is just your definition, not the definition of all instructors. Other instructors might have different definitions of what it means to be ready to formally test. Some of the people on this forum give the impression that they think all instructors have the exact same system. I've said it before and I'll say it again, every instructor has their own system on how students go up in rank and many instructors have systems that are very different than systems that many other instructors have. Such systems vary, a lot.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The major difference between tests in school and tests in martial arts is you don't know what questions are going to be on the school tests (unless you find a way to steal it from your teacher's desk). In martial arts, you know exactly what "questions" (i.e., what you will be required to demonstrate) will be on every exam up to the highest technical dan grade

Because of this, you have far less excuses for failing a test in martial arts than in school.

Not necessarily. In martial arts tests, from my experience, you can be tested on anything that's been covered in your training sessions up to the rank you're testing for, but you don't know beforehand exactly what you'll be tested on.

Any dojo that allows all students to test, regardless of whether or not the instructor has assessed that they are likely to pass or fail, is one that I'd steer clear of. That just means they're only interested in collecting test fees.

Some dojos give you a refund if you fail, and some dojos don't even charge a testing fee.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Not necessarily. In martial arts tests, from my experience, you can be tested on anything that's been covered in your training sessions up to the rank you're testing for, but you don't know beforehand exactly what you'll be tested on.

I've only seen it two ways:

1. The test is on everything from yellow belt and all the way up to the rank you're testing for, or
2. the rank you're testing for only.

Either way, you know ahead of time.

Some dojos give you a refund if you fail, and some dojos don't even charge a testing fee.

Sure, of all the dojos that exist, there has to be at least one that refunds to the fees to those who fail. Do I think they're numerous enough to be worth mentioning? Hardly.

As for the ones that don't charge a testing fee, the level of integrity that's often boasted to be behind free tests isn't very congruent with allowing students to test who aren't ready.

 

[skribs]

Agree. A little off topic from the OP, but especially at the BB level, the person should be reasonably vetted before testing. But the testing environment can rattle some people enough to still fail or at least do poorly. This in itself has good value if approached the right way.
To the OP, does an instructor have the 'right' to fail everyone? I suppose, but much, much more would have to be known/explained to support such a move. More often statements like that are just posturing.

Yeah, but by black belt you should also have enough tests to be desensitized to those nerves, or at least know how to push through it.

 

[HighKick]

Yeah, but by black belt you should also have enough tests to be desensitized to those nerves, or at least know how to push through it.

Yes, but it still happens. Some people have really, really bad stage fright in certain conditions.
I am weird about it. In a competition environment, I seldom get rattled. Talking to a room full of engineering nerds I am completely comfortable. Put me in front of a bunch and Master instructors and GM's and I still get a little nervous.

 

[Stu Young]

Yes, but it still happens. Some people have really, really bad stage fright in certain conditions.
I am weird about it. In a competition environment, I seldom get rattled. Talking to a room full of engineering nerds I am completely comfortable. Put me in front of a bunch and Master instructors and GM's and I still get a little nervous.

I understand this well. One thing I do when I am either speaking or performing in front of a group of people is to completely block them out. I go into my zone, focus and do what I have to do. The room around me gets darker and I forget people are with me.

 

[Simfers]

Whenever I tested for a belt, I always imagined that instead of being there to evaluate me, the examiners were attending a seminar I was giving. They were there to LEARN from ME. Put me in a position of confidence right away, and once I got started, momentum carried me through to the end. It's worked pretty well!

 

[Hot Lunch]

I see tests as just another training day at the dojo. Test or not, the instructor is still watching the students.

 

[skribs]

Yes, but it still happens. Some people have really, really bad stage fright in certain conditions.
I am weird about it. In a competition environment, I seldom get rattled. Talking to a room full of engineering nerds I am completely comfortable. Put me in front of a bunch and Master instructors and GM's and I still get a little nervous.

Do you at least know how to push through it?

 

[skribs]

Whenever I tested for a belt, I always imagined that instead of being there to evaluate me, the examiners were attending a seminar I was giving. They were there to LEARN from ME. Put me in a position of confidence right away, and once I got started, momentum carried me through to the end. It's worked pretty well!

That's an interesting take.

I think it's actually kind of how the upper belt crucibles go for Roy Dean.