Master have right to fail everyone at BB Test?

[Hot Lunch]

That depends on whatever system your dojo has in place concerning tests and how much time is in between tests but even if your dojo does have regularly scheduled tests, that doesn't mean that every student will be testing whenever they schedule one so in that case it might make sense to ask (if you do want to work on earning belts.)

That depends. If there's a time in grade or training hours requirement needed to participate in the next test, the student will know where they stand. Hence, no need to ask the question.

From my experience you're usually taught your next kata right after you get you're next rank, if you pass a rank test and get promoted than usually by the next class or so you're taught the next kata. That's just my experience.

My last dojo wasn't like that. One of the (many) reasons I left. At one particular kyu grade, I needed both Naihanchi Nidan and Naihanchi Sandan for the next test. I already had about two-thirds of the hours needed, and I hadn't even started Naihanchi Nidan yet. The test was in less than a month. To add further context:

Each class at that particular dojo had a specific focus. I.e., a class might be dedicated to kata, another might be dedicated to sparring, another might be dedicated pairing up and practicing ippon kumites, etc.

And you didn't know ahead of time what it was going to be. There was no "Monday is kata, Tuesday is this, Wednesday is that" - and it was like that by design. They didn't want people only showing up for the days they need.

Furthermore, even on kata day, everyone does the lowest kata together and goes up to the next. And depending on how much time is spent on katas lower than the ones you need, the class may not get to the one you need in time before class ends.

So there were plenty of classes where you went home pissed off.

And even if you begin the kata, they only teach about three steps at a time.

Look up the katas on YouTube? Don't let them find out you're doing that.

Back to that particular kyu grade - eventually lost patience and asked one of the instructors, but one that I was particularly cool with (there's only one other black belt I would have asked, and none of the others). And he obliged.

Unfortunately, even though I had the hours for the next test... I wasn't able to get all of Naihanchi Sandan in time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That depends. If there's a time in grade or training hours requirement needed to participate in the next test, the student will know where they stand. Hence, no need to ask the question.

Unless Im'm missi og your point, this seems to assume time-in-grade is the only thing that matters. If you've been x-belt long enough, you're able to test for y-belt. That seems like a rather weak approach - taking no consideration of different people's abilities, desire for perfection, confidence, etc.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Unless Im'm missi og your point, this seems to assume time-in-grade is the only thing that matters. If you've been x-belt long enough, you're able to test for y-belt. That seems like a rather weak approach - taking no consideration of different people's abilities, desire for perfection, confidence, etc.

Well, I did say "or training hours requirement" in the very thing you quoted. If someone wants to know when they're eligible to test, reviewing the time in grade requirements should be the first thing they do. Now, if they're lacking in something that could prevent them from being able to test, then I would certainly hope that the instructor initiates that conversation rather than waiting on the student to inquire about testing eligibility.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, I did say "or training hours requirement" in the very thing you quoted. If someone wants to know when they're eligible to test, reviewing the time in grade requirements should be the first thing they do. Now, if they're lacking in something that could prevent them from being able to test, then I would certainly hope that the instructor initiates that conversation rather than waiting on the student to inquire about testing eligibility.

Training hours is only marginally better than calendar time as a guide. If that's all it takes to be able to test someplace, then there should never be a need to ask - it'd just be a matter of telling the instructor to put you on the list for the next test. That seems like a waste of time for the instructor and student in many cases, as you'd either end up testing a bunch of folks who aren't ready, or making a bunch of folks wait longer than necessary to test.

That might be a necessary evil in a large school, though. I always testing in relatively small schools (maybe 100 total students spread over 15-20 classes per week), so it was easier to test students when each student was ready.

 

[Buka]

I’m trying to imagine a student in a Martial Arts school deciding the school’s procedure and etiquette do not apply to them.

“I’m trying real hard, Ringo.”

It ain’t working, I can’t imagine it.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Training hours is only marginally better than calendar time as a guide. If that's all it takes to be able to test someplace, then there should never be a need to ask - it'd just be a matter of telling the instructor to put you on the list for the next test. That seems like a waste of time for the instructor and student in many cases, as you'd either end up testing a bunch of folks who aren't ready, or making a bunch of folks wait longer than necessary to test.

That might be a necessary evil in a large school, though. I always testing in relatively small schools (maybe 100 total students spread over 15-20 classes per week), so it was easier to test students when each student was ready.

Are you saying that testing at your school is on a rolling basis? And that it's weird for testing in other schools not to be?

I don't know of any schools in my local area where testing is on a rolling basis. I imagine, in this case, "when can I test" becomes a legitimate question.

But whether that's good for instructors or students... eh. By not testing at scheduled intervals, the instructor sets themselves up to bugged by students everyday with that question. At the same time, if students are afraid to ask, but that question is eating away at them... they might just seek out a dojo that tests at scheduled intervals so that they won't have to ask.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Are you saying that testing at your school is on a rolling basis? And that it's weird for testing in other schools not to be?

I'm not sure what you mean by "rolling basis", so I can't really answer your question. But I thought I was clear that there are things that are probably necessary in larger schools that would feel off to me, because my experience is entirely in smaller schools.

I don't know of any schools in my local area where testing is on a rolling basis. I imagine, in this case, "when can I test" becomes a legitimate question.

But whether that's good for instructors or students... eh. By not testing at scheduled intervals, the instructor sets themselves up to bugged by students everyday with that question. At the same time, if students are afraid to ask, but that question is eating away at them... they might just seek out a dojo that tests at scheduled intervals so that they won't have to ask.

Ah! I think I understand what you mean - testing as each student is ready. Again, you have to remember this is coming from a school with fewer than 100 students. Given the times between testing (minimum 6 weeks to first testing - usually closer to 3 months, and it scales up with each rank), instructors never got overwhelmed with testing. By the time the school had any classes with more than 20 students, it also had associate instructors and student instructors who could teach classes while testing was done.

The two biggest advantages of this were that nobody had to set aside extra time for tests (until testing for higher levels, but that was rare enough to be a non-issue), and it allowed full focus on one or two students at a time (the maximum who could test together) for testing and feedback.

 

[skribs]

I’m trying to imagine a student in a Martial Arts school deciding the school’s procedure and etiquette do not apply to them.

“I’m trying real hard, Ringo.”

It ain’t working, I can’t imagine it.

I see it sometimes. We have this 1-stripe white belt in my BJJ class that thinks he's a coach.

Pulled all the brand newbies aside after class the other day and tried to run a second class for them.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The two biggest advantages of this were that nobody had to set aside extra time for tests (until testing for higher levels, but that was rare enough to be a non-issue), and it allowed full focus on one or two students at a time (the maximum who could test together) for testing and feedback.

The only issue I'd take with rolling tests is that any student trying to stay on top of their progress and wants to know when they can test has to ask their instructor.

In and of itself, I wouldn't mind this as long as:

1. Students are not discouraged from asking, and
2. they're given an answer that's clear, quantifiable, non-cryptic, and straight to the point (i.e., not some Miyagi-esque response).

 

[drop bear]

So as this is a thread about black belt tests I want to bring this up here. On this forum somebody once said that out of respect they would never ask their instructor when they were going to test for their next belt but especially not the black belt. As to who said that I don't remember offhand and even if I did I don't want to mention any names as that's gotten me in trouble on this forum before. Anyway, they said they would never ask when they were going to test but they would especially never ask when they would test for the black belt, out of respect.

So what I want to know is this? Why would it be especially disrespectful to ask when you're going to test for the black belt? Why would asking when you're going to test for the black belt be more disrespectful than asking when you're going to test for other belts? As people on this forum have said before black belts can be purchased at martial arts stores. I know that. I am well aware that black belts can be purchased at martial arts stores, they go for about five dollars and they will sell to anybody. That being the case why is it so disrespectful to ask about it? Why is it so disrespectful to ask about a five dollar piece of cloth?

Because of that same dichotomy where you are supposed to pretend you don't want it.

It would be more honest to ask. Get 6 months prep, do a fight camp and test with the best chance of success you can generate.

Not only from a black belt perspective. But as a development perspective. Where you dedicated real time and effort to achieve a thing.

 

[drop bear]

I’m trying to imagine a student in a Martial Arts school deciding the school’s procedure and etiquette do not apply to them.

“I’m trying real hard, Ringo.”

It ain’t working, I can’t imagine it.

I would probably hop schools.

So it would still factor. Just in a different way.

But would also be important feedback for that school.

 

[drop bear]

The only issue I'd take with rolling tests is that any student trying to stay on top of their progress and wants to know when they can test has to ask their instructor.

In and of itself, I wouldn't mind this as long as:

1. Students are not discouraged from asking, and
2. they're given an answer that's clear, quantifiable, non-cryptic, and straight to the point (i.e., not some Miyagi-esque response).

We do rolling tests with no warning. But we also do competition. Which fills all those boxes of prior warning and dedicated training.

I do know a club that has separate ranks for successful competitors.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The only issue I'd take with rolling tests is that any student trying to stay on top of their progress and wants to know when they can test has to ask their instructor.

In and of itself, I wouldn't mind this as long as:

1. Students are not discouraged from asking, and
2. they're given an answer that's clear, quantifiable, non-cryptic, and straight to the point (i.e., not some Miyagi-esque response).

As I said before, students never had to ask when they can test - they just have to ask to schedule it (since the instructor might not have time in a given class, or may already be testing someone else). If a student has all the techniques for the next test (listed in the student manual, or they could ask any instructor), they were able to test.

 

[PhotonGuy]

We have been through all this multiple times by multiple people. Quit beating a dead horse.

But still, even now, not everybody has gotten the point apparently.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Only for the misers. $150 Japanese silk. Go big or home.

You don't have to pay $150 to buy a black belt, only if you want one made out of Japanese silk. A standard black belt that you buy at a MA store, and that's used at some dojos, goes for about $5.00.

 

[Hot Lunch]

You don't have to pay $150 to buy a black belt, only if you want one made out of Japanese silk. A standard black belt that you buy at a MA store, and that's used at some dojos, goes for about $5.00.

...please tell me what part of what I said indicated that I'm not aware of this. Did I not say that a particular option was specifically for the misers, and that other was for those who wanted to go big?

IMO, if you spent years busting your butt, I'd think you'd want something more than a $5 belt to show for it. Even it's not $150 Japanese Silk (and $150 is not a lot of money. It's a cheap dinner date at a chain restaurant).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

...please tell me what part of what I said indicated that I'm not aware of this. Did I not say that a particular option was specifically for the misers, and that other was for those who wanted to go big?

IMO, if you spent years busting your butt, I'd think you'd want something more than a $5 belt to show for it. Even it's not $150 Japanese Silk (and $150 is not a lot of money. It's a cheap dinner date at a chain restaurant).

While I spent a little extra on mine ($40, 23 years ago), that was for durability. I don’t really see any reason to spend more just because you worked harder for the rank. You spend more to get what you want, unless the cheaper on does what you want.

 

[PhotonGuy]

...please tell me what part of what I said indicated that I'm not aware of this.

You didn't.

Did I not say that a particular option was specifically for the misers, and that other was for those who wanted to go big?

I suppose, although I don't really care much for breaking the bank on belts, but that's just me.

IMO, if you spent years busting your butt, I'd think you'd want something more than a $5 belt to show for it. Even it's not $150 Japanese Silk (and $150 is not a lot of money. It's a cheap dinner date at a chain restaurant).

The important thing for me is knowing I earned it, not having an expensive belt to show off, but again that's just me.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I suppose, although I don't really care much for breaking the bank on belts, but that's just me.

The important thing for me is knowing I earned it, not having an expensive belt to show off, but again that's just me.

I wouldn't call it "showing off." To those who know what they're looking at, if you're wearing a Japanese silk belt, you're not the first person they've seen wearing one and you won't be the last. Once again, it's simply about having a nicer version of something you worked hard for.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I wouldn't call it "showing off." To those who know what they're looking at, if you're wearing a Japanese silk belt, you're not the first person they've seen wearing one and you won't be the last. Once again, it's simply about having a nicer version of something you worked hard for.

The point is that a black belt is just a piece of cloth that anybody with enough money can buy and that has been mentioned multiple times in this forum. That being the case, it's also been mentioned in this forum that it's disrespectful to ask your instructor about testing for said piece of cloth. If it's just a piece of cloth that any bozo with enough money can buy than why is it disrespectful to ask about it? That's silly and contradictory if you ask me.