Master have right to fail everyone at BB Test?

[KenpoMaster805]

Well here's the deal yes any Martial Arts Instructor can Fail their students if there not ready when a instructor tells you you gonna test you have to be ready you got your techniques ready your kata ready and even your question ready if they have questions for you and what ever your requirement for your karate or BJJ or TKD test you have to know it already if you don't know it you will not pass the test like in my system we have a pretest before you test to know if your ready or not the instructor will tell you if you fail or pass if you pass your pretest then your ready for the real test well me im getting ready for my pretest for my Black belt on the 27 of July and i got my basic technique katas and question done even my thesis done so im ready i memorized them all so if your gonna test you have to be ready at already at all times

 

[Hot Lunch]

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I'd find this completely acceptable under two conditions:

1. This is completely normal, and the examinees are fully aware of the pass/fail rate beforehand, AND

2. It's not elimination-based. In other words, out of x amount of people, only y number of people can pass and z have to fail.

 

[MuayJitsu]

I mean they can but end of the day if your running a belt test and everyone ends up failing then you’ve failed as a instructor

 

[drop bear]

I think there's a big difference between a test being open to everyone and being compulsory. Although s you said, the instructor can set the narrative. If it's as simple as "if you don't pass, just wait for the next one" then no biggie. But it sounds like these folks were expecting to pass.

Similarly, if it's open to everyone, and most people fail, then I go back to my point that expectations were not properly set. If one or two people in a blue moon test prematurely, that's on them. If an entire group fails because they tested too soon, that's a bigger issue.

When I got into high school, the path was Algebra 1/2 -> Geometry 1/2 -> Algebra 3/4 -> Pre-Calculus -> Calculus. I and many others had already done Algebra 1/2 in middle school, and so started with Geometry. Our Geometry program was self-paced. I and a few others completed the entire year in the first semester (I did it in the first quarter). So the second semester I did Algebra 4. Pre-calculus was expected for juniors and seniors, I took it as a sophomore.

Math tests can be self-paced, just like martial arts tests.

The original ninja warrior courses were not ment to be passed.

The show was designed just to see if it was doable.

And then people just worked it out.

Which is a fun way of looking at it. I think.

 

[Gyakuto]

I'd find this completely acceptable under two conditions:

1. This is completely normal, and the examinees are fully aware of the pass/fail rate beforehand, AND

2. It's not elimination-based. In other words, out of x amount of people, only y number of people can pass and z have to fail.

I think the many decades of this kind of data means the outcomes are well-know.

 

[Gyakuto]

I mean they can but end of the day if your running a belt test and everyone ends up failing then you’ve failed as a instructor

I think that a negates the accountability held by the student and might be ones first reaction on hearing one has failed an examination.

 

[Gyakuto]

The original ninja warrior courses were not ment to be passed.

Well it’s a big assumption that ninja were real and they took corporate-style courses. .

 

[HighKick]

I think there's a big difference between a test being open to everyone and being compulsory. Although s you said, the instructor can set the narrative. If it's as simple as "if you don't pass, just wait for the next one" then no biggie. But it sounds like these folks were expecting to pass.

Similarly, if it's open to everyone, and most people fail, then I go back to my point that expectations were not properly set. If one or two people in a blue moon test prematurely, that's on them. If an entire group fails because they tested too soon, that's a bigger issue.

When I got into high school, the path was Algebra 1/2 -> Geometry 1/2 -> Algebra 3/4 -> Pre-Calculus -> Calculus. I and many others had already done Algebra 1/2 in middle school, and so started with Geometry. Our Geometry program was self-paced. I and a few others completed the entire year in the first semester (I did it in the first quarter). So the second semester I did Algebra 4. Pre-calculus was expected for juniors and seniors, I took it as a sophomore.

Math tests can be self-paced, just like martial arts tests.

Speaking from experience as a tech/trade school teacher and SI company owner, I cannot count the people I see who know advanced math exceptionally well in a classroom setting but completely lack the ability to apply the math in a real world setting. For most, it takes time to reconcile the static classroom to the dynamic real world. Knowing what math to use when is more than half the battle.
I fully believe the same thing happens when teaching/learning a martial art. Using a form as the example, I imagine we have all seen people quickly learn the gross Moves of a pattern, but they are far from knowing how to do the form. Or a movement from clinch where leverage if very important. The angles/variables are near endless, so knowing the gross movement does Not make the skill work.

We do not invite people to testing if we do not expect them to pass. That said, failures do occur, usually when people psych/stress themselves out or simply gas out Way too soon. Always, always we try our best to preempt this, making sure everyone knows it can and does happen. I don't know how it could ever be called a 'test' if there is no possibility of failure. I say this with the best of intentions, where is the fun in a training environment without it?

 

[_Simon_]

Well here's the deal yes any Martial Arts Instructor can Fail their students if there not ready when a instructor tells you you gonna test you have to be ready you got your techniques ready your kata ready and even your question ready if they have questions for you and what ever your requirement for your karate or BJJ or TKD test you have to know it already if you don't know it you will not pass the test like in my system we have a pretest before you test to know if your ready or not the instructor will tell you if you fail or pass if you pass your pretest then your ready for the real test well me im getting ready for my pretest for my Black belt on the 27 of July and i got my basic technique katas and question done even my thesis done so im ready i memorized them all so if your gonna test you have to be ready at already at all times

Just wanna say best of luck for your pretest and test mate. Hope all goes well and enjoy it, and let us know how it goes. I know how much you love your training

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Just wanna say best of luck for your pretest and test mate. Hope all goes well and enjoy it, and let us know how it goes. I know how much you love your training

will do

 

[PhotonGuy]

This question was posed yesterday by the Master 5th Dan at a Recommmend BB test of five men and women. At the end he stated he was disappointed in the ability of their jumping kicks and height. Mostly everyone broke boards really well and I didn't see redo's in form. He said another master had failed all his students at a BB test in another city.
He said he COULD fail all testing before him. He posed a question to us -
Does he have the right to FAIL everyone-no explanation?

In answering the question, we all said he has the blanket RIGHT... The would be BB's said they would want to know why. The BB's sitting at the table, said it wouldn't be right and that the students have rights too. Any comments?

If the students who were testing didn't meet the standards to pass then yes, the master should fail them and that includes all of them if all of them didn't perform well enough. If the master fails students who don't perform well enough he is doing his job and he is doing his job properly. If he passes students who don't perform well enough he is not being honest and I certainly would not want an instructor so he is doing a good job when he fails students who don't perform well enough.

However, when he does fail students, students who fail have every right to know why they failed and they have every right to know what they need to work on so they can pass the next time around.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I think we're using the word "right" too loosely.

If the instructor does not have the right to fail all students, that would mean that there would be criminal or civil penalties if the instructor did it.

Students having the "right" to know why they failed implies that there can be criminal or civil penalties for the instructor for withholding that information.

We know that neither are the case. Yes, the instructor has the right to fail all students and no, the students do not have the right to know why they failed. Is failing all students and adding insult to injury by not disclosing why they failed a sound idea if you want your school and the practices therein to be perceived as transparent and ethical? Absolutely not. It's not a crime to suck at running your school. But the free market economy will ensure that there are ramifications for sucking.

 

[geezer]

I think we're using the word "right" too loosely.

If the instructor does not have the right to fail all students, that would mean that there would be criminal or civil penalties if the instructor did it.
Students having the "right" to know why they failed implies that there can be criminal or civil penalties for the instructor for withholding that information.

I agree that we are using the word right in the general, conversational sense, rather than a strict legal sense, and that's fine as long as everybody understands each other. I mean, I'm here to casually converse. I never even took the bar exam!

Now if we're talking about "best practices" to use a buzzword of our times, I'd have to agree that informing a failing student of their deficiencies is important if you want them to improve and succeed the next time they test. That's just basic teaching. So if your students are paying you for quality instruction, IMO you really do owe them that. Beyond that, it's on them to do the work and build the skills.

Of course, in a free market economy, you can provide less than good quality instruction, and yes, you may suffer economically as students go elsewhere for a better product. Personally, I wasn't motivated to teach strictly for making money. Good thing too, since I never made much!

 

[MadMartigan]

The answer is simple at first. Yes. The master has the right to fail anyone they choose. That right comes with a responsibility, however.

Many years back when I was a green belt, the 'master' in charge of our school would only visit our area once per year to grade every student green belt or above. By our area, I mean a city 3 hours drive away.

After training at green belt for about 1/2 a year, the test for blue stipe finally arrived. 6 of us (teens like me or young adults) made the trip. After years of practice, teaching, and presiding over my own gradings, I can confidently say that at least most of us should have passed. Instead, all 6 failed without reason given and would have to wait abother year to attempt again. (This story informs the primary reason my instructor went independent shortly afterward so that he didn't lose all his students because of that master).

Of course there were things for me to work on. I was only a green belt. I can say confidently in hindsight that there was nothing that glaring though.

Yes that 'master' had the right to fail us all. But he neglected his responsibility as an instructor to develop students. In the end, we also had the right not to subject ourselves to his 'leadership'.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Of course there were things for me to work on. I was only a green belt. I can say confidently in hindsight that there was nothing that glaring though.

Yes that 'master' had the right to fail us all. But he neglected his responsibility as an instructor to develop students. In the end, we also had the right not to subject ourselves to his 'leadership'.

Sounds like it was purely a power flex for no reason.

 

[skribs]

After training at green belt for about 1/2 a year, the test for blue stipe finally arrived. 6 of us (teens like me or young adults) made the trip. After years of practice, teaching, and presiding over my own gradings, I can confidently say that at least most of us should have passed. Instead, all 6 failed without reason given and would have to wait abother year to attempt again. (This story informs the primary reason my instructor went independent shortly afterward so that he didn't lose all his students because of that master).

There were a few instances of this at my old school. We had a system where you could Fail, Pass, or Outstanding a test. If you got Outstanding on any color belt test, you got a chevron to sew onto your arm. Blue and red belts that had arms dripping in chevrons were usually top-notch students.

I remember one grading. It was kids intermediate. Me, the other judges, and all of the parents thought all of the kids did an excellent job. They remembered everything, had good power, good energy, the test ran pretty quick. Sometimes there's students who have to redo something over and over because they keep messing up or don't put in a good performance, and those tests take forever. We all thought that every kid was going to get an outstanding. Not a single one did. I guess the Master was in a mood when he was grading.

Similarly, I've posted in the past about my frustrations with my own grading. The one time (out of 23 tests) that I got a Pass instead of Outstanding, the comments he made did not line up with my recollection of the test. I feel he was docking me points for mistakes my friend was making. Then there was my Hapkido black belt test that I struggled to apply techniques against a 2nd degree black belt who is bigger, stronger, more experienced, had been specifically training the counters to the moves I was doing in the test, and had been told to use those in my test. These two tests were after I had told him I planned on moving, and he has recently admitted that he had mistreated me and my family when we told him we were moving.

Overall it was usually fair. Most of the students I thought did well got Outstanding. Most of the students that I thought did mediocre got Pass. Very few failed, and those that did definitely deserved it. (I've spoken about that earlier in the thread).

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think we're using the word "right" too loosely.

If the instructor does not have the right to fail all students, that would mean that there would be criminal or civil penalties if the instructor did it.

Students having the "right" to know why they failed implies that there can be criminal or civil penalties for the instructor for withholding that information.

We know that neither are the case. Yes, the instructor has the right to fail all students and no, the students do not have the right to know why they failed. Is failing all students and adding insult to injury by not disclosing why they failed a sound idea if you want your school and the practices therein to be perceived as transparent and ethical? Absolutely not. It's not a crime to suck at running your school. But the free market economy will ensure that there are ramifications for sucking.

Well if I did fail I would ask why I failed so I can know what I have to work on so I can pass the next time around.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Well if I did fail I would ask why I failed so I can know what I have to work on so I can pass the next time around.

Right, but in the scenarios being discussed, the instructor is refusing to disclose that. So now what?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Business or not, you don't put people into the test if they aren't ready, unless there's a good lesson they can learn from it. That lesson is that they aren't as good as they think they are, and they need to be taken down a peg.

True enough, but I can imagine circumstances which might induce me to fail everyone. Say, they went out as a group and did something that seriously violates the rules. Like, they went out and beat someone to a pulp with no justification.

 

[skribs]

True enough, but I can imagine circumstances which might induce me to fail everyone. Say, they went out as a group and did something that seriously violates the rules. Like, they went out and beat someone to a pulp with no justification.

In that case I would kick them out, failing wouldn't be the primary concern.