Master have right to fail everyone at BB Test?

[elcajon555]

It is a common reuirement in our school, for degree tests, to jump and kick above your head. Now there are not a lot of practical applications to that, because all targets would be much lower, infact in street fights I would sooner kick low, to the knee and whatnot, then high. However jumping and kicking does test flexibilty, stamina, agility, which are all important.

 

[MJS]

It is a common reuirement in our school, for degree tests, to jump and kick above your head. Now there are not a lot of practical applications to that, because all targets would be much lower, infact in street fights I would sooner kick low, to the knee and whatnot, then high. However jumping and kicking does test flexibilty, stamina, agility, which are all important.

True, but you can't expect everybody to be the same. Everybody is built differently. What might be easy for a 110 lb, 5'6 female, may be hard for a 6'5, 225lb male. Exceptions need to be made.

As for kicking head height...I can do that without a problem, and I dont have to jump into the air to do it.

Mike

 

[elcajon555]

True, but you can't expect everybody to be the same. Everybody is built differently. What might be easy for a 110 lb, 5'6 female, may be hard for a 6'5, 225lb male. Exceptions need to be made.

As for kicking head height...I can do that without a problem, and I dont have to jump into the air to do it.

Mike

I really don;t think exceptions need to be made. It is true that everyone is different and built differently. However since there is a whole spectrum in the martial arts it is egual. IE it is easier for women to do splits but men need them, and it is easier for men to do pushups but women also need them. And what is hard for one will usually be easier for another, meaning that throughtout a program everyone will have both things that are easy for them and hard for them and need to work on what is harder for them, because what is being asked of them is not impossible, therefor why make exceptions, particulary for people going for the same belt.

 

[MJS]

I really don;t think exceptions need to be made. It is true that everyone is different and built differently. However since there is a whole spectrum in the martial arts it is egual. IE it is easier for women to do splits but men need them, and it is easier for men to do pushups but women also need them. And what is hard for one will usually be easier for another, meaning that throughtout a program everyone will have both things that are easy for them and hard for them and need to work on what is harder for them, because what is being asked of them is not impossible, therefor why make exceptions, particulary for people going for the same belt.

Let me clarify exception. You can't expect a small woman to execute an armbar on a large man, without her having to make an adjustment. If someone is more flexible, has longer/shorter arms, etc. adjustments will need to be made. You need to take size, strength, etc. into consideration. Again, just because that 225 lb male does not jump as high as that 110 lb woman, does that mean that his kick is any less effective? As for the splits. Again, you're talking about 2 very different body types. Some people, no matter how hard they try, are just not going to be able to do it. Just because the woman goes all the way to the ground, but the man is 5 in. higher, should he be punished for it?

The fact remains, that if the student was NOT ready for the BB test, then the inst. should NOT have put them on the test. If they cant jump 7ft in the air, then I guess they'll just have to stay back until that is possible.

Mike

 

[c2kenpo]

I think that what you have is a normal part of the testing procedure. But if I read correctly the Master at your test gave an explanation for failing a student.

Personaly I agree with some here that you do not "test" someone who you would not pass already.
I like the idea of the "test" to be a challenge that they have not had before in normal classes. Rearrange the technique list or tell them to do their form facing the audience, something out of the ordinary to TEST them.
An instructor or Master should know before the test that the student knows and understands the material they need for it. I dont believe that a student should fail because they did a technique slightly differently (Kenpiosts bear with me lol) or adjusted something. I like to think that you took them out of thier comfort zone and made them uncomfortable and how did they peform under those condidtions. The idea chould be to CHALLENGE our students not GRADE them.

Fail someone and not tell them why. NO. You can't ask a flower to stay alive and not give it water.

David Gunzburg

 

[MJS]

I think that what you have is a normal part of the testing procedure. But if I read correctly the Master at your test gave an explanation for failing a student.

Personaly I agree with some here that you do not "test" someone who you would not pass already.
I like the idea of the "test" to be a challenge that they have not had before in normal classes. Rearrange the technique list or tell them to do their form facing the audience, something out of the ordinary to TEST them.
An instructor or Master should know before the test that the student knows and understands the material they need for it. I dont believe that a student should fail because they did a technique slightly differently (Kenpiosts bear with me lol) or adjusted something. I like to think that you took them out of thier comfort zone and made them uncomfortable and how did they peform under those condidtions. The idea chould be to CHALLENGE our students not GRADE them.

Fail someone and not tell them why. NO. You can't ask a flower to stay alive and not give it water.

David Gunzburg

Very good points here sir. I agree that the BB test should be the most physical test and also a challenge to the students. I know that my 1st degree test was an expereince that I'll never forget! As I've also said before and like you've just mentioned here, I dont think that the inst. should put the students on the BB test, or ANY test for that matterm until HE feels that they are ready. As a fellow Kenpoist, I hear ya when it comes to making an adjustment!!LOL!

Mike

 

[c2kenpo]

Very good points here sir. I agree that the BB test should be the most physical test and also a challenge to the students. I know that my 1st degree test was an expereince that I'll never forget! As I've also said before and like you've just mentioned here, I dont think that the inst. should put the students on the BB test, or ANY test for that matterm until HE feels that they are ready. As a fellow Kenpoist, I hear ya when it comes to making an adjustment!!LOL!

Mike

Any test sir. I remember my Purple Belt test my instructors tested me by having me start with Block Set 1 then Short 2 then He stopped me halfway through and said okay now from there Begin on Long 1 on the left side.

Blue the challenge was to develope my own personal form with a theme and submit it. 10-12 techs from anything in my knowledge base. Then 1 week before the test looked at it said how proud they were at the work I put in. Now for the test I have to use just the techniques in the Blue belt rank! *LOL* Talk about pressure!!

These are the challenges that make a test. If I choose not to kick my opponent in Delayed Sword they wont fail me. And if I dont get the form JUST RIGHT. The question once asked me was
"Are you happy with that sir?"
I replied "No I wasn't sir."
Later I learned the lesson that he wanted to teach.

He asked me the next time.
"Are You happy with that sir?"
I replied "I have to be, if it was what I did sir."
The board just smiled.

David Gunzburg

 

[MJS]

Any test sir. I remember my Purple Belt test my instructors tested me by having me start with Block Set 1 then Short 2 then He stopped me halfway through and said okay now from there Begin on Long 1 on the left side.

Blue the challenge was to develope my own personal form with a theme and submit it. 10-12 techs from anything in my knowledge base. Then 1 week before the test looked at it said how proud they were at the work I put in. Now for the test I have to use just the techniques in the Blue belt rank! *LOL* Talk about pressure!!

These are the challenges that make a test. If I choose not to kick my opponent in Delayed Sword they wont fail me. And if I dont get the form JUST RIGHT. The question once asked me was
"Are you happy with that sir?"
I replied "No I wasn't sir."
Later I learned the lesson that he wanted to teach.

He asked me the next time.
"Are You happy with that sir?"
I replied "I have to be, if it was what I did sir."
The board just smiled.

David Gunzburg

Sounds like you've had some very interesting tests. As with any test, that IMO, is the whole idea behind it....to put as much pressure on you as they can. Its really amazing because when not under any pressure, you know this much (-------------------------) Under some stress its this much (--) and that is the idea. They want to see how wel you can preform, and it appears to me, that you did well on the tests that you mentioned above.

Good luck on the rest of your journey! :asian:

Mike

 

[TigerWoman]

Our master says, by failing all, is to teach humility. It IS his right as a testor to fail those who do not pass a test. It IS his right to judge that the students testing do not have humility. BUT does he really think all those who he approved to go to a test before, now at the test suddenly have no or not enough humility? Did something, words or action of ALL the students during the test cause him to change his mind that they now had no humility? Or is it that the master, who is their instructor, who has sent them to test, wants to have an opportunity to squash them down? Did this need to be done at a test instead of just saying no you're not ready and stay at high red or brown? Is the problem the lack of humility in the students or is it the lack of humility in the master instructor?

Our master sides with the OTHER master in that he thinks all should be failed to teach them humility. It doesn't matter if they didn't jump high enough. He lets them come back and retest for just that part. But the dilemma posed is that he fails everyone whether they did well or not, just to make his students have humility. We have all agreed pretty much that it is his right as testor and master. But having the the right doesn't necessary teach them. It would show that he wanted to put his students down or in their place as if they don't know that already that they are only students, and that humiliating his students, failing them, would be a reminder who was in control. In our class, "no, sir" is not a response - why is such a reminder necessary?

 

[c2kenpo]

Our master says, by failing all, is to teach humility. It IS his right as a testor to fail those who do not pass a test. It IS his right to judge that the students testing do not have humility. BUT does he really think all those who he approved to go to a test before, now at the test suddenly have no or not enough humility? Did something, words or action of ALL the students during the test cause him to change his mind that they now had no humility? Or is it that the master, who is their instructor, who has sent them to test, wants to have an opportunity to squash them down? Did this need to be done at a test instead of just saying no you're not ready and stay at high red or brown? Is the problem the lack of humility in the students or is it the lack of humility in the master instructor?

Our master sides with the OTHER master in that he thinks all should be failed to teach them humility. It doesn't matter if they didn't jump high enough. He lets them come back and retest for just that part. But the dilemma posed is that he fails everyone whether they did well or not, just to make his students have humility. We have all agreed pretty much that it is his right as testor and master. But having the the right doesn't necessary teach them. It would show that he wanted to put his students down or in their place as if they don't know that already that they are only students, and that humiliating his students, failing them, would be a reminder who was in control. In our class, "no, sir" is not a response - why is such a reminder necessary?

Why? There is one reason only for someone like that.

EGO.

Dave Gunzburg

 

[elcajon555]

One of my "favorite" parts of my test were when the master asked us all if we felt we had meet the standards for a second degree and we all said yes, because we are taught to have confidence in whatever we do. The master then replied we had much lower standards then him(a real confidence booster)) and that was five minutes into the test

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Sorry for the long post in advance. I've been reading this, and some other threads about what a black belt is, etc., and for better or worse, I gotta weigh in.

I like what Mike said about the test being a challenge, as well as not placing the student in a test without foreknowledge of their skill. In my own schools, I have never allowed a student to sit for a test for which I did not already believe they were ready, either physically, emotionally, or technically. I have always appreciated the test as a "crisis and observation" piece for assessment of character. Technique will come with practice, but character is something each student must search for within their own hearts, finding the strength to choose - through force of will - to press on even after the body has tried to fail; To reach a point of total fatigue, and find a second wind that is mind moving muscle through intent, not conditioning.

By the time I let them test, I've watched my students train and know their technical capability. I know they already possess adequate knowledge of techniques, forms, kata, etc. I still opt to put them through the crucible. Belt, after belt, after belt. At each level, the bar is raised a little higher. I had one student with excellent form, huge ego/attitude problem, and no grit: The test would start to get challenging, he would start to breathe hard and muss his hair, and insist that he just couldn't go on. Never made it past Green, even after 8 years of dilligent training (3-4x/week, 2 hrs+ per pop). Left my school to train with another guy who gave him a BB in the second week of attendence (read: Once the check cleared).

In contrast, I had a lummox of a student, blind in one eye since birth, and suffering with a number of neurological balance and coordination issues that affected the prettiness of his executions; always moved like a bull in a china shop, and finesse was nowhere in his physical vocabulary. He had trained with me for about 6 years with intermittent breaks for school in another state; while in town, he attended all the classes he could, including the black belt classes (yep, he was more then welcome), so he knew all the material he needed to, and more. And he was good at it. For his Green-to-Brown test, one of the first guys I promoted to BB came out of the woodwork to rake this kid over the coals, while the panel looked on. From full strength throws on a thin carpet to assess breakfalls, to weapons retention sparring (here...you hold this baton and try to hit me with it, and don't let me take it away no matter what, or you fail); weapons disarms (I'm gonna start hitting you with this staff. Your job is to take it away from me however you can, and do not stop until you have done so, or you fail); to freestyle (full-contact, bare-knuckle, head and face OK along with knees and elbows to body and extremities; take-downs and throws followed by blows to the grounded opponent expected...mouthpiece [ only got one set of teeth] and no cup [been studying blocks since day one; should be able to use them under fire]). Richard put this kid through the ringer backwards and forwards, until all of us thought it was overkill...it was for a brown belt, for petes sake. The kid absolutely refused to stop, no matter how beaten, bloody and bruised he got (when I say kid, 22 years old, training with me since 16). After about 20 minutes of straight sparring, the wild man kicked Tom in the gut so hard, it sent him easily a dozen feet back accross the room and into a crumpled heap. Tom lost his lunch, cleaned himself up, straightened out his kimono and belt, then turned right around and came back for another. I stopped the test right there and gave the him his black belt; we didn't have one ready for him, so Richard took his weathered and frayed belt off and gave it to Tom with a deep bow of respect, eyes down. Probably the most well-earned promotion I've ever had the honor to be a part of.

That strength of spirit - never to quit, no matter how ugly the odds or brutal the beating - is the rarest and truest of warrior virtues, and - to me - defines the very essence of what seperates the real black belt from the masses of commercialized yudansha. Anybody can rote-memorize a cirriculum, and develop the athletic capabilities necessary to recite the body of knowledge impressively. Hell, cross-training and sports nutrition are at such an all time high as a technology that there isn't really an excuse for an active, committed student to be anything other than in top notch shape (sez the out of shape goo-bear eating Oreo's while playing on the computer). Not jumping high enough, etc.,...don't even schedule them for the test until you know they can. If, as they do, they demonstrate character flaws unbecoming an officer and a gentleman (a black belt), then flunk them as hard and as fast as you can, tell them why with a suggested course of corrective training (study philosophical classics, meditate, whatever), and mentor their progress with an eye towards shaping the type of character you expect them to possess. If they show the strength of heart for that 1 in 100,000, then slap that snippet of cloth around their waist and belly-kick them into the nearest wall!

If the whole class lacks the strength of heart to press on through the crucible, then by all means, flunk the whole class. I don't charge testing fees, and think they're kinda a rip-off. Most senior students have already continued paying their dues for years, and are often put to work doing the slave labor of kids classes, warm-ups, and the like (I can't stand teaching kids classes). The blood stains on their gi should attest to the fees they paid for the right to test for black belt.

It's called a "1 in 100,000" for a demonstrative reason: 100,000 people will sign up for lessons. 10,000 will make it past the first three months. Of that 10,000, 1000 will become "serious" students. Of that 1000, 100 will stick it out to Brown Belt. Of the 100, 10 will strive to prepare for black. And of those 10, only 1 will show the strength of heart to succeed.

To be that One, perservering through time and challenge to arrive at a finishing line intentionally set far out of reach, leads to a black belt one can be proud of. At that point, it is more than an item of clothing to hold up your pants; it is an accomplishment distinguishing a man or woman of mention from the uncivilized hordes of people who quit at the first or second sign of resistance. It is an insignia worn by a trained mensch, indicating that the person wearing it can and will go the extra mile to accomplish what needs to be accomplished, even though it cost them dearly. Belts made from this cloth can not be bought over the internet, attained through a TV screen, or earned in a happy family atmosphere where everybody gets thier promotions just for showing up and demonstrating positive citizenship by giving a good effort.

Does an instructor have the right to flunk a whole class? Sure. And he should strip himself of his own rank for being such a poor judge of readiness as to put that particular collection of candidates up for examination. Clearly, a senior instructor who would place himself and several of his top students in this position has NOT demonstrated the insight or character required to attain his lofty rank, and would best serve his school, system, and students by recusing himself from any leadership positions in the dojo. Hand the mantle to somebody else, dude. You're not worthy.

Climbing off the soapbox,

Dr. Dave

 

[Phoenix44]

Fail EVERYONE??? Then in my opinion, the Master failed.

 

[Ceicei]

I have never allowed a student to sit for a test for which I did not already believe they were ready, either physically, emotionally, or technically. I have always appreciated the test as a "crisis and observation" piece for assessment of character. Technique will come with practice, but character is something each student must search for within their own hearts, finding the strength to choose - through force of will - to press on even after the body has tried to fail; To reach a point of total fatigue, and find a second wind that is mind moving muscle through intent, not conditioning.

That strength of spirit - never to quit, no matter how ugly the odds or brutal the beating - is the rarest and truest of warrior virtues, and - to me - defines the very essence of what seperates the real black belt from the masses of commercialized yudansha.

It's called a "1 in 100,000" for a demonstrative reason: 100,000 people will sign up for lessons. 10,000 will make it past the first three months. Of that 10,000, 1000 will become "serious" students. Of that 1000, 100 will stick it out to Brown Belt. Of the 100, 10 will strive to prepare for black. And of those 10, only 1 will show the strength of heart to succeed.

Dr. Dave

Your Tom demonstrates warrior spirit. There is no doubt that if pressed into a corner with no way out, he knows how to defend himself, not just physically but mentally, psychologically, and spiritually.

- Ceicei

 

[TKD Jonsey]

Why was he testing them if they weren’t ready? IMHO a person taking a black belt treat should have been prepared and evaluated by the instructor and only if they were truly ready should they be subjected to the test.

 

[drop bear]

Interesting concept.

In combat sports you have fights. And those everyone can fail with no explanation given.

And it changes the attitude towards them.

 

[skribs]

Why was he testing them if they weren’t ready? IMHO a person taking a black belt treat should have been prepared and evaluated by the instructor and only if they were truly ready should they be subjected to the test.

This is a 20-year-old thread and I don't recognize most of the names in it, so they probably won't be around to offer much in the way of discussion on it.

However, the only reason I can think of for a Master failing everyone at the test is if the Master is a guest. For example, if Alan decides his students are ready to test for black belt, but Alan isn't eligible to promote them or if he wants his Master (Brian) to come visit and see what his students can do. Brian comes to visit and sees that Alan has done a very poor job training them. Then Brian could fail them and pass his critique onto Alan, who can get them ready.

There are a few reasons I've seen individuals fail:

• Adults that rarely showed up but thought they knew everything and demanded to test. Turns out they didn't.
• Young kids that never listen or follow directions and had been stuck at their belt for months, failing their test was motivation to do better. (Out of thousands of kids we taught this only happened half a dozen times).
• Kids that freeze in the middle of the test (nerves or whatever) and refuse to complete it.

I have seen people fail because as soon as you learn your form (or appear to have learned it) you would get your stripe, and if you have your form stripe you basically weren't allowed to practice your form in class anymore. Surprise surprise when they get to the testing day and didn't know their form anymore. This was a school I left after 3 months because of a number of issues.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Short answer is "yes." But if this happens, the students are more likely to assume that the problem is with the instructor and not them. Whether the students are right or wrong, perception is reality and the ramifications are gonna be there.

 

[Hot Lunch]

It's called a "1 in 100,000" for a demonstrative reason: 100,000 people will sign up for lessons. 10,000 will make it past the first three months. Of that 10,000, 1000 will become "serious" students. Of that 1000, 100 will stick it out to Brown Belt. Of the 100, 10 will strive to prepare for black. And of those 10, only 1 will show the strength of heart to succeed.

I remember hearing about how things go in Navy SEAL training. For example, 10 trainees will be instructed to stand in a pond with freezing temperatures, and it's past midnight.

The instructor will yell "I need three of you to quit right now. None of you will be leaving that pond until I get three quitters. The bell is right over there. All you have to do is walk over and ring it. We'll put you in a nice warm rack for the night, and send you on your way."

Far be it from me to say how things should or shouldn't be in the Navy SEALs, but I can't say that I'd be fond of such a practice in martial arts.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Short answer is "yes." But if this happens, the students are more likely to assume that the problem is with the instructor and not them. Whether the students are right or wrong, perception is reality and the ramifications are gonna be there.

Yup. Same as if everyone fails a math class in school - either A) all 30 students didn't learn properly, B) they were taught badly, or C) the test wasn't a good assessment of their skills. B and C are much more likely than A.