Kicks!!! How many of what kind are needed for self defense.

[RTKDCMB]

However, the only really training you'd need is to practice crushing cans with a stomp as that would be the most effective way to kick someone who is actively attacking you.

Make sure you wear shoes when stomping on cans as they can have sharp points sticking up and don't forget to recycle. And what part of the attacker would you be stomping on with this can stomping action - the feet? Have you ever tried stomping on someones feet when they are moving around rapidly? It's not easy therefore if you are going to use kicking then you will need a bit more variety in the methods of training for kicks.

 

[Cyriacus]

Make sure you wear shoes when stomping on cans as they can have sharp points sticking up and don't forget to recycle. And what part of the attacker would you be stomping on with this can stomping action - the feet? Have you ever tried stomping on someones feet when they are moving around rapidly? It's not easy therefore if you are going to use kicking then you will need a bit more variety in the methods of training for kicks.

I assume the target would be their torso. Functionally, stomp kicks dont change much based on where you aim them.

 

[jks9199]

Hmm... so the advice is to hit to softer targets (not the head) with the most structurally sound, largest, and strongest (most resistive to being broken) knuckles, but when hitting to the head, to move down to the most commonly broken in a "boxer's fracture", which happens when they hit someone in the head with that knuckle? Interesting.

Makes me rather suspect that they don't hit to the head very much...

 

[Cyriacus]

Makes me rather suspect that they don't hit to the head very much...

Its about 60/40 in favor of hitting to the head. But, thats at the expense of only half contact being involved when practicing those sorts of things.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I'm less convinced of the "can't close their hands properly" reasoning... but I'll come to that in a moment. I would agree with the idea of punching the head being a major cause, though... in very simple terms, it's big (thick, hard) bones (forehead) versus little bones... big bones win. The only viable targets for a closed fist on the head I'd aim for are the jaw (which moves) and the nose (which moves... when it breaks). Spraining happens if the wrist is taken past it's flexibility point... so that's more an indication that the point of impact is closer to the fingers than the base of the palm, rather than being a flaw of the palm strike itself. Breaking your wrist is more about a poor alignment (which is why wrists get broken in falls).

Clenching the fists properly involves closing them as tight as you can, squeezing out all of the air and making them as compact as possible and have your fingers completely flat at the front (back of the wrist and front of the fist at a 90 degree angle), you just can't do that with a piece of padded material inside your fist, try doing knuckle pushups on a wooden floor when clenching some in your fist. I agree with the rest of the paragraph but I will add that the head does move when you hit it in the temple.

I'd also seriously question the idea that boxers don't condition their hands to strike... it's one of the main reasons for bag work!

Bag work is a great conditioning tool but you need much more than that to condition the hands effectively. Some of the things that I do personally are: Knuckle pushups on thw wooden training floor, bitumen and concrete, jumping Knuckle pushups, twisting Knuckle pushups, finger pushups board and tile breaking, bag work and punching hard but flexible objects.

When it comes to the classic "boxer's fracture", it is a break of, as you said, the fourth or fifth metacarpal (the ring and little fingers, respectively). The improper alignment there isn't really about the wrist, it's that you hit "late", and the force is applied to the later part of your hand (leading with the index or middle finger knuckles). It is more common to break your hand that way by slightly missing with the lead knuckles, and "clipping" (with some force!) the latter knuckles. The facts that these metacarpals aren't as supported, are thinner, and don't allow the force to continue to travel down the forearm, all combine to result in a broken hand. And, really, the most common cause is striking something hard (such as the head/skull) with those later knuckles.

Other injuries can include breaking the fingers by accidentally hitting with the lower knuckles and spraining the thumb by hitting slightly off angle, this is why I rarely use a hook punch on a round punching bag, I sprained my right thumb by punching slightly too far forward and hitting the back of the bag. Since then I have sprained my thumb about 20 times getting my hand kicked during sparring, one thing I ahve notice is that twisting the wrist at the last moment during a straight punch protects then thumb from getting sprained from the opponents blocks.

My most common target, also, is the jaw line... as it's a very good chance for a knockout. My personal targeting is to strike by positioning the opponents ear between my thumb and forefinger... this means my palm impacts about halfway along the jawline. Using a direct angle straight in (90 degrees to the jaw), it is an incredibly powerful strike... as well as being a large target, making it very simple to use in a "gross motor" fashion, making it usable in an adrenalized state (as a fight/self defence situation is).

Since you put so much faith in "gross motor" skills I will point out that punching with a clenched fist is a much more natural and instinctive action than hitting with the palm, that is why in just about every fight between unskilled non-martial art people that involved striking, punches are thrown and not palm strikes.

Speed wise, against a punch, well, it's basically the same action, so yeah, they're the same. Power wise, the difference is primarily psychological... due to the reduced risk of injuring yourself, it's common to put more behind a palm strike than a punch. To test that, go up to a brick wall, and punch it as hard as you dare... then strike with your palm as hard as you dare. I guarantee that you'll let yourself hit a lot harder with the palm... As far as the angle, again, they can be identical... but I find the palm can be slightly tighter, due to the larger impact point. The focus of the fist means that you need to get the angle that much more correct, so your approach is a little more limited.

It would be pretty stupid to punch and/or palm strike a brick wall as hard as you can, that being said if you place your hand on a brick wall with the bottom of the wrist facing down the palm strike is more suitable for higher angles and the punch more suitable to the lower angles although the further you go down the more you contact with the back of the knuckles but the palm strike retains the same contact. Personally I would use palm strikes in addition to rather than instead of punching.



You're better off rotating your hand, rather than bending the elbow away from 90 degrees... you're sacrificing power, as well as alignment, for convenience.



You want to hit with the base of the palm, not the center of it. That's where the support is, that's where the stability is, that's where the transfer of power is... further up (towards the fingers) is less stable, less powerful, less safe.



Hit towards, not across... makes a world of difference.



Cool.



For practicing such stomps, make sure you exaggerate the action as much as you can....[/QUOTE]

 

[Aiki Lee]

Make sure you wear shoes when stomping on cans as they can have sharp points sticking up and don't forget to recycle. And what part of the attacker would you be stomping on with this can stomping action - the feet? Have you ever tried stomping on someones feet when they are moving around rapidly? It's not easy therefore if you are going to use kicking then you will need a bit more variety in the methods of training for kicks.

The side of the knees actually, or the head or ribs. I wouldn't kick someone unless they were in a compromised position already. I might throw a snap kick to the shins as a set up but stomping kicks are done when someone is off balance or already off the ground.

 

[Cyriacus]

or already off the ground.

So, you only kick a person if theyre flying through the air?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Hmm had not seen this thread somehow. Well, I would post my own opinion on the subject, but just read the entire thread, and every response I thought of was said by chris or himura in a much better way then I would have said it...so just commenting to voice my support for their SD methods.

 

[Chris Parker]

Clenching the fists properly involves closing them as tight as you can, squeezing out all of the air and making them as compact as possible and have your fingers completely flat at the front (back of the wrist and front of the fist at a 90 degree angle), you just can't do that with a piece of padded material inside your fist, try doing knuckle pushups on a wooden floor when clenching some in your fist.

There are different ways to form a fist, you realize... but, for the record, the most important part of forming a fist is in the wrist... the fingers won't always be at 90 degrees. In fact, the fingers will typically not be at 90 degrees, but a bit less... which allows the knuckles themselves to protrude beyond them. That's kinda essential, really, as the fingers don't impact (if they do, there's a good chance of injuring them pretty badly), the knuckles do. That requires them to lead.... Besides which, I wasn't saying that the gloves don't allow you to form a tight fist, I was saying that that wasn't the only way boxers practice, they also practice with just wraps, which do allow a "proper" fist to be formed. So, uh, missed the point there.

I agree with the rest of the paragraph but I will add that the head does move when you hit it in the temple.

The head does, the bones don't. The jaw bone does. The nose does (when it breaks). The skull doesn't. And your hand breaks.

Bag work is a great conditioning tool but you need much more than that to condition the hands effectively. Some of the things that I do personally are: Knuckle pushups on thw wooden training floor, bitumen and concrete, jumping Knuckle pushups, twisting Knuckle pushups, finger pushups board and tile breaking, bag work and punching hard but flexible objects.

Yeah... look, to be blunt, knuckle push-ups are really useless for hand conditioning (as related to striking), finger push-ups are really only to help strengthen your fingers, not condition them for striking, and so on. Board and tile breaking, same, really. That's good for focus, but not so much for conditioning. Actual hand conditioning is closer to bag work, when all's said and done. Only the last two things you mention are related to (or applicable for) hand conditioning.

Other injuries can include breaking the fingers by accidentally hitting with the lower knuckles and spraining the thumb by hitting slightly off angle, this is why I rarely use a hook punch on a round punching bag, I sprained my right thumb by punching slightly too far forward and hitting the back of the bag. Since then I have sprained my thumb about 20 times getting my hand kicked during sparring, one thing I ahve notice is that twisting the wrist at the last moment during a straight punch protects then thumb from getting sprained from the opponents blocks.

Yeah... not sure what relevance this really has... other than you need more training in striking properly...

Since you put so much faith in "gross motor" skills I will point out that punching with a clenched fist is a much more natural and instinctive action than hitting with the palm, that is why in just about every fight between unskilled non-martial art people that involved striking, punches are thrown and not palm strikes.

Instinctual and gross motor, believe it or not, aren't actually the same thing. Our hands are not designed to hit things with at all, they're designed to pick things up (to hit things) with... but, for the record, there are a range of reasons that fists are more commonly seen... and most of it has to do with perceptions rather than reality.

It would be pretty stupid to punch and/or palm strike a brick wall as hard as you can, that being said if you place your hand on a brick wall with the bottom of the wrist facing down the palm strike is more suitable for higher angles and the punch more suitable to the lower angles although the further you go down the more you contact with the back of the knuckles but the palm strike retains the same contact. Personally I would use palm strikes in addition to rather than instead of punching.

Yeah... you might note the careful use of words there.... I didn't say "hit as hard as you can", I said "hit as hard as you dare"... subtle, perhaps, but important... and, well, kinda integral to the point I was making (you seem to have missed that one as well). Oh, and your knowledge of striking still needs work.

The side of the knees actually, or the head or ribs. I wouldn't kick someone unless they were in a compromised position already. I might throw a snap kick to the shins as a set up but stomping kicks are done when someone is off balance or already off the ground.

I wouldn't advise the head, mainly for legal reasons. The body, knees, joints, all good. I like stomping to wrists and elbows as a finish to knife defence, if the target presents itself (ankles as well), as it makes it rather difficult for the attacker to get back up again. Against an unarmed assault, I would caution avoiding such extreme responses.

 

[RTKDCMB]

There are different ways to form a fist, you realize... but, for the record, the most important part of forming a fist is in the wrist... the fingers won't always be at 90 degrees. In fact, the fingers will typically not be at 90 degrees, but a bit less... which allows the knuckles themselves to protrude beyond them. That's kinda essential, really, as the fingers don't impact (if they do, there's a good chance of injuring them pretty badly), the knuckles do. That requires them to lead.... Besides which, I wasn't saying that the gloves don't allow you to form a tight fist, I was saying that that wasn't the only way boxers practice, they also practice with just wraps, which do allow a "proper" fist to be formed. So, uh, missed the point there.

Plus or minus a few degrees, not much of a stretch really. Oh and the fingers always make some contact, we human beings compress and deform a bit when we get hit.

Yeah... look, to be blunt, knuckle push-ups are really useless for hand conditioning (as related to striking), finger push-ups are really only to help strengthen your fingers, not condition them for striking, and so on. Board and tile breaking, same, really. That's good for focus, but not so much for conditioning. Actual hand conditioning is closer to bag work, when all's said and done. Only the last two things you mention are related to (or applicable for) hand conditioning.

Any reasonable amount of stress on the bones will strengthen them (Wolfe's law, cortical remodeling), a single punch through 2 or 3 boards will do more to condition the hands than a single punch on a punching bag. Stronger fingers mean that you can clench the fist tighter.

Yeah... not sure what relevance this really has... other than you need more training in striking properly...

You're right I did need more training 20 years ago.

Oh, and your knowledge of striking still needs work.

You seem to believe that people's heads are immovable objects that people can't punch without breaking their hands, palm strikes can not injure the striker, people are powerless against the influence of adrenaline and people always go on "unconscious autopilot" when attacked and you say my knowledge of striking needs work.

I wouldn't advise the head, mainly for legal reasons. The body, knees, joints, all good. I like stomping to wrists and elbows as a finish to knife defence, if the target presents itself (ankles as well), as it makes it rather difficult for the attacker to get back up again. Against an unarmed assault, I would caution avoiding such extreme responses.

This part I agree with you - I can think of no good reason to stomp on someones head. One question though - how do you normally stomp on the wrists of the knife holder, is it after the knife has been removed or while they are still holding it? Just curious.

 

[Cyriacus]

You seem to believe that people's heads are immovable objects that people can't punch without breaking their hands, palm strikes can not injure the striker, people are powerless against the influence of adrenaline and people always go on "unconscious autopilot" when attacked and you say my knowledge of striking needs work.

Unconscious autopilot is an understatement.

 

[K-man]

Clenching the fists properly involves closing them as tight as you can, squeezing out all of the air and making them as compact as possible and have your fingers completely flat at the front (back of the wrist and front of the fist at a 90 degree angle), you just can't do that with a piece of padded material inside your fist, try doing knuckle pushups on a wooden floor when clenching some in your fist. I agree with the rest of the paragraph but I will add that the head does move when you hit it in the temple.

Bag work is a great conditioning tool but you need much more than that to condition the hands effectively. Some of the things that I do personally are: Knuckle pushups on thw wooden training floor, bitumen and concrete, jumping Knuckle pushups, twisting Knuckle pushups, finger pushups board and tile breaking, bag work and punching hard but flexible objects.

As Chris said, there are many ways of making a fist. I teach one from the CMAs called 'Cotton Fist' where the hand is not clenched and another where you can strike even if your index finger or thumb was damaged in a way that prevented you from clenching the fist.

For conditioning, it's hard to go past the makiwara.

But I'm confused. How come we're discussing punching, at such length, in a kicking thread?
:asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

As Chris said, there are many ways of making a fist. I teach one from the CMAs called 'Cotton Fist' where the hand is not clenched and another where you can strike even if your index finger or thumb was damaged in a way that prevented you from clenching the fist.

And lets not forget the Phoenix eye fist, the middle knuckle fist (from my art as well) and the Wing Chun version for punching with the middle and smaller knuckles

For conditioning, it's hard to go past the makiwara.

A hard but flexible object So I Totally agree

But I'm confused. How come we're discussing punching, at such length, in a kicking thread?

I was wondering that myself, threads seem to evolve from one topic to the next, much like a conversation.

And now back to kicking.

 

[Chris Parker]

Plus or minus a few degrees, not much of a stretch really. Oh and the fingers always make some contact, we human beings compress and deform a bit when we get hit.

Actually, it does make a difference... 90 degrees means that, as the knuckles impact, so will the front of the fingers, which can force them back, and damage them. Less than 90 degrees, and the impact is with the fore-knuckles, which take the brunt of the force. Yes, the fingers will still contact, but they don't "impact" (take the major force of the strike). Again, the words are important.

Naturally, I am only talking about "regular" fists here, rather than any specialized ones... if I was, I'd talk about many, many different forms, ranging from striking with the first knuckles of the fingers (a "panther fist", or, in my systems, shikan ken), a single extended first-knuckle strike, a strike with the thumb, the first knuckle of the thumb, even up to a fist found in Yagyu Shingan Ryu, where the hand is held by keeping the tips of the fingers and thumb together, holding the hand "as if holding an egg", meaning that the fist is never closed... and the striking method used in this form is to swing the arms in large movements. After a few years of training like that, you should be able to break rocks with this "unclenched" fist. But, as I said, I'm only referring to a regular fist at the moment...

Any reasonable amount of stress on the bones will strengthen them (Wolfe's law, cortical remodeling), a single punch through 2 or 3 boards will do more to condition the hands than a single punch on a punching bag. Stronger fingers mean that you can clench the fist tighter.

No.

Cortical remodeling, which is part of Wolff's Law, refers to the effect of striking an object over and over... such as makiwara or bag work. Knuckle push-ups don't have the same effect, as they don't give the same stimulus. They'll help toughen up the skin on your knuckles more than anything else. Oh, and Wolff's Law really deals more with the effect on bone mass that muscular stress (loading) has. By building up the muscular groups attached to the bones, it forces them to become denser, or grow. Knuckle push-ups don't provide that stimulus. Striking through boards doesn't actually do it either, as you're not generating impact to create the effect of cortical remodeling, unless the boards don't break. Really, bag work and makiwara (the same thing, really, just using different equipment) is the way to employ the effects of Wolff's Law, as well as condition your hands for striking. The rest you suggested isn't.

You're right I did need more training 20 years ago.

You're kidding? You spoke about "other injuries" by citing ones you've sustained, which all showed that you were striking incorrectly (missing the bag, striking with the wrong part of your hand etc), and when called on the fact that your story didn't show an issue with the striking ideas, but with your execution of it, you come back with "you're right, I did need more training 20 years ago"? Really? You injured yourself as a beginner two decades ago, and think that's relevant to whether or not the strike is dangerous?

If you strike badly, whether due to inexperience or poor technique, you can injure yourself. That's really all you showed. Nothing about whether or not the actual method is flawed.

You seem to believe that people's heads are immovable objects that people can't punch without breaking their hands, palm strikes can not injure the striker, people are powerless against the influence of adrenaline and people always go on "unconscious autopilot" when attacked and you say my knowledge of striking needs work.

You really seem to have missed, not only what I've been saying, but, well, reality on a number of levels here. Badly.

This part I agree with you - I can think of no good reason to stomp on someones head. One question though - how do you normally stomp on the wrists of the knife holder, is it after the knife has been removed or while they are still holding it? Just curious.

That depends entirely on the situation. But it does rely on them being taken down already, and I wouldn't suggest stomping a wrist that is holding a knife... there, I'd pick another target.

 

[Aiki Lee]

So, you only kick a person if theyre flying through the air?

Lol. I meant onthe ground. You all should know by now I can't type worth a damn.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I wouldn't advise the head, mainly for legal reasons. The body, knees, joints, all good. I like stomping to wrists and elbows as a finish to knife defence, if the target presents itself (ankles as well), as it makes it rather difficult for the attacker to get back up again. Against an unarmed assault, I would caution avoiding such extreme responses.

Well yes, the head would be for only the most dire and extreme cases. Each threat must be dealt with appropriately, and deadly force is not dealt willy nilly.
Ankles I'm used to targeting, but not so much the arms and wrists. Hmmm, i think I will purposefully target them next class just because I haven't done so in recent memory.

 

[Aiki Lee]

This part I agree with you - I can think of no good reason to stomp on someones head.

I bet you could if you put some more serious thought into it. It all depends on whether or not you are willing to kill the person, which obviously is very rare and a very serious thing to consider.

 

[Kframe]

Sorry I have not posted much, I have been reading the back and forth about punching and enjoying it. Looking at my father, he does infact have a default kick he uses. I noticed when I turn a corner in his home, or some how unexpectedly run into him some where, his startle response involves a front snap kick. He will go into what I can only guess is the TKD back stance, with all his weight on his rear leg, his arms come up into what looks like a Karate X block in front of his chest and his lead leg comes up and into position for the front snap kick. Its almost like he brings his front leg up to the chamber position of the kick.

I have pretty much ruled out any kicks that involve jumping, no need for that kind of risk, not that I could do them anyways. That leaves all the terrestrial kicks, the basic ones mentioned the front(both flavors) the side and round. All of which I have in my arsenal and can use proficiently in low line kicks. That leaves the other 2 kicks, the back kick and the hook kick. Are these of any consideration? I have seen a lot of people hook kick and fall over when impacting, which is bad for self defense usage. The back kick, seems like a less risky kick, tho it does turn your back to the enemy, but it hits like a brick.

 

[Chris Parker]

Er... right. Not going near the "startle" responce of your dad there... but what should be realized is that there really isn't a single form of kicking that is found across all martial arts. The forms of kicks found in TKD (and karate) are very different to those found in my systems, for example... or those found in Wing Chun... so when you talk about "the back kick", or "the hook kick", different arts, even if they have them, what is meant by the term could be quite different.

 

[Cyriacus]

Sorry I have not posted much, I have been reading the back and forth about punching and enjoying it. Looking at my father, he does infact have a default kick he uses. I noticed when I turn a corner in his home, or some how unexpectedly run into him some where, his startle response involves a front snap kick. He will go into what I can only guess is the TKD back stance, with all his weight on his rear leg, his arms come up into what looks like a Karate X block in front of his chest and his lead leg comes up and into position for the front snap kick. Its almost like he brings his front leg up to the chamber position of the kick.

I have pretty much ruled out any kicks that involve jumping, no need for that kind of risk, not that I could do them anyways. That leaves all the terrestrial kicks, the basic ones mentioned the front(both flavors) the side and round. All of which I have in my arsenal and can use proficiently in low line kicks. That leaves the other 2 kicks, the back kick and the hook kick. Are these of any consideration? I have seen a lot of people hook kick and fall over when impacting, which is bad for self defense usage. The back kick, seems like a less risky kick, tho it does turn your back to the enemy, but it hits like a brick.

Back kicks and hook kicks, in a TKD and Karate, both have a period in which you are totally vulnerable. With that being said, there are some other ways you can use the hook kick motion, which is found in, from what ive seen, mostly Japanese MA as a low line movement.
From my perspective, rather than asking if theres any consideration for them, just ask yourself what youd be using them for, then ask yourself if you have something that already does the same thing. Depending on what you want a hook kick for, the answer will change.