Kicks!!! How many of what kind are needed for self defense.

[Mister Owl]

I know I haven't introduced myself in the forum, but I excuse myself by saying that I am not worth introducing. However, I ask why no one has cited the Bruce Lee quote relative to this topic in this thread? Is the quote worthless?

 

[Chris Parker]

Thanks for the advice guys. I will stick to what I know and what my coach teaches. It seams that the popular opinion is I don't need any, and if I do keep them low. Well that is ok with me because, low kicks are the only ones I can do consistently. I will admit that I kinda do have a fantasy of being able to do spin kicks, but I don't think I want to waste any time on it.

So lets talk about low kicks. Im assuming the knee and groin are the obvious targets. Which side of the knee is the most vulnerable? I know from personal experience that a hyper extended knee stinks for months... What about hits to the side of the knee or back of the knee? What about the area I targeted in sparring the upper thigh?

Primary targets will be (as I said earlier), the knees (the sides, either inside or outside, as the knee just doesn't bend that way... the front can work with a jamming kick, but that's best used as a "stopping" action) with a stomp, rather than a side-kick (more power, simpler, better balance etc), the groin (knees, shin kick) and inner and outer thighs (particularly the outer, aiming for the ITB, with knees primarily). Stomps can also work well against feet and ankles, but big, heavy boots (worn by the attacker) can negate a lot of the effect.

I beg to differ, good sir. I cant use my right hands knuckles, and i still think punching is better than palming or elbowing

Hmm, I don't know about that... I'd go for a palm over a fist in a heartbeat. And elbows are dictated by the range, rather than anything else... if you're in range for an elbow, you're probably too close for most other things.

It's important to remember that peoples attitudes will be influenced (even controlled) by their own training and experience. If your training is with guns, you will recommend a gun. If your training is with hand techniques, you will recommend hand techniques. If you're a kicker, you will recommend kicks.

Any technique, even the most complicated, can be effective under the right circumstances. And any technique, even the most simple, can be ineffective under the wrong circumstances.

Train in as many techniques as possible. Start with the simple and add more difficult techniques as your skills improve. No, that tornado kick is not appropriate for all circumstances. But it certainly can be appropriate. I've personally used kicks (and kicks aimed at targets higher than some people will ever accept as being useful) in self defense situations. I've also used low kicks. And punches. And open hand techniques. And grabs. And joint locks. And throws. And pressure points.

The more you know and can apply effectively the better off you will be.

While I don't disagree that there might be a place for anything under certain circumstances, or that the attitude/opinions will be coloured by the persons experience, I just can't agree with this advice. For the record, my background includes a number of years in TKD, where I was quite good at kicking methods, fast, powerful, accurate... but, when it all comes down to it, what influences my comments on what should be trained for self defence is more to do with what the needs for self defence are, what the effects of adrenaline are, what the legal situation is, what the realities of modern assaults are, and so on. Add to all of that understanding of the effectiveness of various training methods, and the advice of "train as many techniques as possible" just doesn't ring true. I mean, we could go to the standard quote of "I do not fear the man who has practiced 1,000 kicks, I fear the man who has practiced 1 kick 1,000 times", yeah? 1 or 2 powerful, versatile kicks trained solidly, is a far, far better approach to training for self defence than the alternative. It should be remembered that, for self defence, what is truly desired (talking only of the physical skill sets here, rather than the "soft skills") are a small number of high-return, low-risk methods, rather than a large number you can "choose" from... mainly as you often won't get an opportunity to "choose", as you'll be going on unconscious autopilot, with the unconscious only selecting what it feels (believes) is the most powerful option, with all else being left aside. If you only train a few methods, and ensure that they are all powerful, you're fine... if you train a whole mess of them, who knows what will come out.... if anything?

I just read to forget spin kicks for self defense. I do not agree because honestly if you have good balance and footwork a spin kick may be good for YOU. for example I just finished sparring tonight.....and I threw some effective spin kicks and high rounds to my opponent. these kicks can also be used to intimidate and back someone off. the key is with spin kicks to finish the 360 degree rotation so you come full circle to not give up your back or limb so much. the key to effective sparring and fighting is being able to problem solve quickly!

I have to ask, though, how do you make that assessment? You list yourself as "karate, boxer white belt" in your profile, and using something in sparring is vastly different to using it in self defence, on almost every level. They really shouldn't be mistaken as being the same thing, or the tactics for one being useful for the other.

 

[Cyriacus]

Ok, I'll bite! What is your reasoning? I like palm strikes better than punches for very specific reasons that I believe to be universally applicable. But not always the same part of the palm. For starters using that little bony bit on the bottom opposite thumb side (I believe it's called the pisiform bone), can put more force per square inch into the target and do more damage than a fist, with much less risk of injury to ones self.

An inquisitive nature! I like it.
This may be a bit winded, but im going to start with a very broad statement, then ill explain myself a bit. Knuckles are hard things, parts of the head and neck dont like being battered, and at close range blocking is impossible (with my definition of close range being body to body). At that same range, straight line punches are practically impossible as well. There are layers of redundancy - Knuckles miss, forearm hits. Theres a long winded version of that, but ill save it for later. Basically, your knuckles can be used to hit at angles the rest of your arm really cant, and have alot of incidental failsafes. Your knuckles protrude slightly from your fist, meaning that you need to actually miss with your knuckles in order to smack in your fingers. With an open hand of any sort, lets take a palm heel, if you miss, you can sprain your wrist by forcing it back, you can smack in the underside of your metacarpals, you can smack in your fingers if you have them bent, you can smack in your fingers if you have them extended, you can take your own thumb out, and you can end up with more of a push than a strike if youre too weak to do it 'properly'. Knuckles are hard things, and dont need as much effort, even if for some people they get more force out of a well done palm heel. If you have a desk, slowly (without accelerating. just a steady slow pace) stand up and hit it with your palm. With the exact same effort and speed, hit it with your knuckles. You get the result easier, and you dont need to unlearn the idea of relying on punches to do it. So, im not arguing potential power. Im bringing up how much power you can generate consistently.

Now, ive said palm heel, as in a straight thrust, compared with a straight line punch. Now, if we switch to a hooking shape. With your knuckles, you just bend your arm and punch. With a palm heel, there are, off the top of my head, three different ways you can position your hand, and each one will be better suited to a different range. With a punch, you just bend your arm as needed to get the right range. With a palm heel, you cant do a palm hook fingertips facing up or out at body to body range, but you can with your fingers facing toward you. Try it yourself! Just aim for something about 10cm in front of your face. Now, the fingers vertical tends to be ok if theres no obstacles between you and the target. The fingers outward is the most instinctive, but it only works at medium range. So, you basically have three different palm hooks for three different ranges, as opposed to one punch. With the straight line strike, that issue isnt as present. Now with uppercuts, the knuckles can uppercut in about three different ways (bolo, straight up, or a kind up palm vertical straight punch). The palm can hit straight up, or it wont really do anything. At first you seem to have the reverse problem, except that it isnt three punches. Its the same punch done from three different angles. With the palm heel, if you mess up the angle its a waste. With the punch, it just gets a different label stuck on it.
Ridgehands, axe hands, and fingertips all work, but they work with alot more caveats. With punching, its hard to mess up. Even if you break your knuckles, you could just as easily break your wrist, break your fingers, smack in the underside of your metacarpals, or not have enough speed for the surface to become hard enough to generate power.

I guess my point is that punching is more dependable, despite all of the things that can go wrong with it. If you make a mistake, the mistake just becomes a different way of doing the same thing. Throw a hook punch up close, go too far, and its a headlock. Throw a hook palm up close, go too far and you can grab their ear because your fingers stick out of your hand, or perhaps a handfull of their hair. Throw an uppercut and throw it wrong, and as long as it hits itll still do something. Swing a palm up and throw it wrong, and it wont do very much unless youre after a push.

Lastly, with a punch, all that changes is the angle you throw it. With open hands, youve got a plethora of hand formations and strike archetypes to go through.

Now ill praise palms briefly, so i dont sound like a complete douche, because im not putting them down. This is a praise of closed fists, not a critique of open hands. Forceful pushes can be a good thing, less range on your strikes can be a good thing, and theres nothing wrong with open hand work.

I agree with this for sure. It's refreshing to see a TKD guy say this! I would echo that there are objectively better ways to approach things regardless of ones personal attributes. Unless you have mastered everything else, kicking above the waste should not be bothered with. (unless its for fun / tournaments of course).

G

Aye.

Edited in PS: If im wrong about something here, tell me. I want to know. Of course its only my opinion that fists have benefits over open hands, im not trying to make it 'fact' or a 'single truth' or something silly like that. I explained my reasons specifically so that whether im right or wrong in that reasoning i can know why, not so i can defend the claim against all odds. You dont have to agree with the conclusion.

Edit 2: Case study. Hit the underside of your metacarpals into a solid wall at about 50% power.

 

[Cyriacus]

Hmm, I don't know about that... I'd go for a palm over a fist in a heartbeat. And elbows are dictated by the range, rather than anything else... if you're in range for an elbow, you're probably too close for most other things.

Personally, i can hook punch from elbowing range comfortably. But, im not posing my word as law. I can sing the praises of open hand work as well

 

[Chris Parker]

An inquisitive nature! I like it.
This may be a bit winded, but im going to start with a very broad statement, then ill explain myself a bit. Knuckles are hard things, parts of the head and neck dont like being battered, and at close range blocking is impossible (with my definition of close range being body to body). At that same range, straight line punches are practically impossible as well. There are layers of redundancy - Knuckles miss, forearm hits. Theres a long winded version of that, but ill save it for later. Basically, your knuckles can be used to hit at angles the rest of your arm really cant, and have alot of incidental failsafes. Your knuckles protrude slightly from your fist, meaning that you need to actually miss with your knuckles in order to smack in your fingers. With an open hand of any sort, lets take a palm heel, if you miss, you can sprain your wrist by forcing it back, you can smack in the underside of your metacarpals, you can smack in your fingers if you have them bent, you can smack in your fingers if you have them extended, you can take your own thumb out, and you can end up with more of a push than a strike if youre too weak to do it 'properly'. Knuckles are hard things, and dont need as much effort, even if for some people they get more force out of a well done palm heel. If you have a desk, slowly (without accelerating. just a steady slow pace) stand up and hit it with your palm. With the exact same effort and speed, hit it with your knuckles. You get the result easier, and you dont need to unlearn the idea of relying on punches to do it. So, im not arguing potential power. Im bringing up how much power you can generate consistently.

Now, ive said palm heel, as in a straight thrust, compared with a straight line punch. Now, if we switch to a hooking shape. With your knuckles, you just bend your arm and punch. With a palm heel, there are, off the top of my head, three different ways you can position your hand, and each one will be better suited to a different range. With a punch, you just bend your arm as needed to get the right range. With a palm heel, you cant do a palm hook fingertips facing up or out at body to body range, but you can with your fingers facing toward you. Try it yourself! Just aim for something about 10cm in front of your face. Now, the fingers vertical tends to be ok if theres no obstacles between you and the target. The fingers outward is the most instinctive, but it only works at medium range. So, you basically have three different palm hooks for three different ranges, as opposed to one punch. With the straight line strike, that issue isnt as present. Now with uppercuts, the knuckles can uppercut in about three different ways (bolo, straight up, or a kind up palm vertical straight punch). The palm can hit straight up, or it wont really do anything. At first you seem to have the reverse problem, except that it isnt three punches. Its the same punch done from three different angles. With the palm heel, if you mess up the angle its a waste. With the punch, it just gets a different label stuck on it.
Ridgehands, axe hands, and fingertips all work, but they work with alot more caveats. With punching, its hard to mess up. Even if you break your knuckles, you could just as easily break your wrist, break your fingers, smack in the underside of your metacarpals, or not have enough speed for the surface to become hard enough to generate power.

I guess my point is that punching is more dependable, despite all of the things that can go wrong with it. If you make a mistake, the mistake just becomes a different way of doing the same thing. Throw a hook punch up close, go too far, and its a headlock. Throw a hook palm up close, go too far and you can grab their ear because your fingers stick out of your hand, or perhaps a handfull of their hair. Throw an uppercut and throw it wrong, and as long as it hits itll still do something. Swing a palm up and throw it wrong, and it wont do very much unless youre after a push.

Lastly, with a punch, all that changes is the angle you throw it. With open hands, youve got a plethora of hand formations and strike archetypes to go through.

Now ill praise palms briefly, so i dont sound like a complete douche, because im not putting them down. This is a praise of closed fists, not a critique of open hands. Forceful pushes can be a good thing, less range on your strikes can be a good thing, and theres nothing wrong with open hand work.



Aye.

Edited in PS: If im wrong about something here, tell me. I want to know. Of course its only my opinion that fists have benefits over open hands, im not trying to make it 'fact' or a 'single truth' or something silly like that. I explained my reasons specifically so that whether im right or wrong in that reasoning i can know why, not so i can defend the claim against all odds. You dont have to agree with the conclusion.

Edit 2: Case study. Hit the underside of your metacarpals into a solid wall at about 50% power.

Yeah... uh, I'm not sure where to start with this. Knuckles, against a head, tend to break. Palms don't. Transfer of power is more reliable with a palm. Versatility of range is easier with a palm without compromising the structure of your arm, and far, far more.

Personally, i can hook punch from elbowing range comfortably. But, im not posing my word as law. I can sing the praises of open hand work as well

Then your range is out. If you're at actual elbow range, the hook will go behind the head... if the hook will land, you're outside of elbow range. If you're at elbow range, and you hit with the hook, then you've most likely compromised the angle of your arm (taking it closer than 90 degrees), which takes structural stability and power out of it.

 

[K-man]

As for the original question on what kicks are needed for self defence? There is only one answer - none, you do not need any specific technique(s) for self defence and styles like Aikido, boxing and judo get along just fine without kicks. A better question would be what kicks are useful for self defence? The answer - any kick can be useful however some kicks are more useful than others.

Just for your information. Aikido does use kicks from time to time. Most times it is just the front kick.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yeah... uh, I'm not sure where to start with this. Knuckles, against a head, tend to break. Palms don't. Transfer of power is more reliable with a palm. Versatility of range is easier with a palm without compromising the structure of your arm, and far, far more.

I did comment that knuckles break. And its worth rementioning that open hands are what i use, for reasons mentioned previously. Its also of course possible that im perhaps backswinging a bit, and drawing a conclusion based on not caring about breaking your hands.

Then your range is out. If you're at actual elbow range, the hook will go behind the head... if the hook will land, you're outside of elbow range. If you're at elbow range, and you hit with the hook, then you've most likely compromised the angle of your arm (taking it closer than 90 degrees), which takes structural stability and power out of it.

If the hook goes behind the head, you get a headlock or a forearm strike? (Thats posed as a question. I lack experiment partners right now)

 

[Dirty Dog]

While I don't disagree that there might be a place for anything under certain circumstances, or that the attitude/opinions will be coloured by the persons experience, I just can't agree with this advice. For the record, my background includes a number of years in TKD, where I was quite good at kicking methods, fast, powerful, accurate... but, when it all comes down to it, what influences my comments on what should be trained for self defence is more to do with what the needs for self defence are, what the effects of adrenaline are, what the legal situation is, what the realities of modern assaults are, and so on. Add to all of that understanding of the effectiveness of various training methods, and the advice of "train as many techniques as possible" just doesn't ring true. I mean, we could go to the standard quote of "I do not fear the man who has practiced 1,000 kicks, I fear the man who has practiced 1 kick 1,000 times", yeah? 1 or 2 powerful, versatile kicks trained solidly, is a far, far better approach to training for self defence than the alternative. It should be remembered that, for self defence, what is truly desired (talking only of the physical skill sets here, rather than the "soft skills") are a small number of high-return, low-risk methods, rather than a large number you can "choose" from... mainly as you often won't get an opportunity to "choose", as you'll be going on unconscious autopilot, with the unconscious only selecting what it feels (believes) is the most powerful option, with all else being left aside. If you only train a few methods, and ensure that they are all powerful, you're fine... if you train a whole mess of them, who knows what will come out.... if anything?

I should have clarified this, then. An inherent assumption in my position is that you're not talkiing about a weekend self-defense course, but rather are talking about the sort of people we all are, who train both consistently and over the long term.

If you're talking about a stand alone weekend self defense course, then my position will be quite different. But I still won't rule out kicks completely.

 

[Zero]

Chris, it is hard without pictures/diagrams to follow what you're saying but I would have to say I disagree with this (unless I have misunderstood you). I am not a boxer but have trained with boxers to better my own hand skills, and a lot of the hooks they throw are very tight to their own body and very compact movements with the power and torque, as you know, generated from the hips and lats. These hooks will snap you jaw and can defintely be a KO. An elbow in the same range can also easily be thrown and in almost the same movement as the compact hook, the elbow itself does come out a bit further due to the mechanics and its position but the elbow comes back in so the point of impact on the jaw is the same spot as that of the fist with the hook. Before good TV coverage, it was not unkown for boxers (deliberately) to appear to execute a hook but actually connect with the elbow in this fasion, the better to cut the opponent or to KO them. Brutal and unsporting for a rules based sport but there you go.
We train compact hooks in karate as well and actually a very tight hook (still devastating when thrown fast and correctly) can be a closer range weapon than an elbow. Now obviously a wider hook would go behind the head if you are comparing this to an elbow strike but hooks can be thrown over varying ranges with equal effect and when a tight hook is thrown correctly, stability and power is not lost.
Peace out

 

[Cyriacus]

Chris, it is hard without pictures/diagrams to follow what you're saying but I would have to say I disagree with this (unless I have misunderstood you). I am not a boxer but have trained with boxers to better my own hand skills, and a lot of the hooks they throw are very tight to their own body and very compact movements with the power and torque, as you know, generated from the hips and lats. These hooks will snap you jaw and can defintely be a KO. An elbow in the same range can also easily be thrown and in almost the same movement as the compact hook, the elbow itself does come out a bit further due to the mechanics and its position but the elbow comes back in so the point of impact on the jaw is the same spot as that of the fist with the hook. Before good TV coverage, it was not unkown for boxers (deliberately) to appear to execute a hook but actually connect with the elbow in this fasion, the better to cut the opponent or to KO them. Brutal and unsporting for a rules based sport but there you go.
We train compact hooks in karate as well and actually a very tight hook (still devastating when thrown fast and correctly) can be a closer range weapon than an elbow. Now obviously a wider hook would go behind the head if you are comparing this to an elbow strike but hooks can be thrown over varying ranges with equal effect and when a tight hook is thrown correctly, stability and power is not lost.
Peace out

I wasnt going to argue that point until later, but i guess this works too

 

[Kframe]

I have been practicing palm strikes with my coach, we do them as part of some of our drills for self defense. I noticed that it costs me a few inches in range over my fist. The trade off is that it is safer and less likely to break my hand. I Was in my warehouse(alone oddly) and decided to see what I could do with a palm strike. So I sauntered up to a skid of floor dry and had at it. I found that I could hit just as hard, as my fist, just lower range. Its not a lot of loss but, enough to throw me out of whack for a few moments. Its something im going to have to be aware of in the future.

I also found that I could hit hard things, harder with a palm then a fist, with less pain. Tho this just points out my need for more iron hand conditioning.

Well everyone has there own opinion on kicking, and that is ok. My way of thinking is, I want to know as much as I can, so I can draw what ever tool may be needed. I can see kicks higer then the legs, being usefull, just not being needed with any real quantity. Say my hands are other wised engaged in something(say grappling in my case, standing grappling) and I see another person entering the fray, a good mid level kick can be used to stop his momentum and help make distance.

Talked to my father about this.(tkd bb) in all the uses of his TKD for self defense, he did not throw one single kick. Most were finished with unbalancing moves and hand techniques. Apparently more then a few with a single punch.

Just more things for me to think about. Cant wait to see how my feelings evolve on this.

 

[Chris Parker]

I did comment that knuckles break. And its worth rementioning that open hands are what i use, for reasons mentioned previously. Its also of course possible that im perhaps backswinging a bit, and drawing a conclusion based on not caring about breaking your hands.

I'm not sure of anyone that would choose an approach that might break your hands over one that has almost no risk, when both provide equal power and effectiveness (although, honestly, I think an open hand is more effective), due to "not caring about breaking your hand".... why would you willingly sacrifice your hand when you don't need to?

If the hook goes behind the head, you get a headlock or a forearm strike? (Thats posed as a question. I lack experiment partners right now)

Well, if you go to that as a backup for the strike missing, you've moved away from effectiveness/reliability as a striking method, haven't you? So while you might be able to, why would you have that as a backup for a less-effective method, when a better, more reliable one, that doesn't require such a backup plan is there?

I should have clarified this, then. An inherent assumption in my position is that you're not talkiing about a weekend self-defense course, but rather are talking about the sort of people we all are, who train both consistently and over the long term.

If you're talking about a stand alone weekend self defense course, then my position will be quite different. But I still won't rule out kicks completely.

No, I'm talking about constant and consistent training persons here. Mind you, as I've said many times, there's a huge gap between martial arts and self defence training... and the two shouldn't be thought of as the same thing. This is why I asked what alterations you made, if any... and honestly, Mark, I'd say you are making some... as I can't see how you aren't, if your training and teaching is geared up for self defence. I'm not saying your classes aren't designed that way, but to make it so, the distancing, set-ups, methods, attacks, and more needs to be altered from the way TKD teaches them.

I'll put it this way... my classes feature three sections. One is martial arts (unarmed), one is weaponry (which might be traditional [martial arts], or modern [self defence]), and the third is self defence. And, while the self defence's physical methods and tactics/strategies are informed by the martial arts side of things, it really is a completely different area of study.

Chris, it is hard without pictures/diagrams to follow what you're saying but I would have to say I disagree with this (unless I have misunderstood you). I am not a boxer but have trained with boxers to better my own hand skills, and a lot of the hooks they throw are very tight to their own body and very compact movements with the power and torque, as you know, generated from the hips and lats. These hooks will snap you jaw and can defintely be a KO. An elbow in the same range can also easily be thrown and in almost the same movement as the compact hook, the elbow itself does come out a bit further due to the mechanics and its position but the elbow comes back in so the point of impact on the jaw is the same spot as that of the fist with the hook. Before good TV coverage, it was not unkown for boxers (deliberately) to appear to execute a hook but actually connect with the elbow in this fasion, the better to cut the opponent or to KO them. Brutal and unsporting for a rules based sport but there you go.
We train compact hooks in karate as well and actually a very tight hook (still devastating when thrown fast and correctly) can be a closer range weapon than an elbow. Now obviously a wider hook would go behind the head if you are comparing this to an elbow strike but hooks can be thrown over varying ranges with equal effect and when a tight hook is thrown correctly, stability and power is not lost.
Peace out

A proper hook is done with the elbow at 90 degrees. To hit with the fist at that angle means that the elbow would miss. To get them both at the same distance, you need to make the angle more acute, which takes away structural base to the arm, and removes power from the strike. I do know the old trick of "missing" with the hook and hitting with the elbow, but the part you missed is the stealing of distance with the feet, which is how that works. And I'm not saying a hook won't knock someone out... but there's a bigger risk of damaging your own hand. A palm knocks people out just as easily, with less risk (believe me, I've done it a number of times now...). And I'm not sure how you get a hook "closer range than an elbow", unless it's impacting as the hand comes back towards yourself, which would leave it susceptible to being more glancing them powerful. The simple fact that the hook is at the end of your arm (your hand) makes it out past your elbow, in terms of range... but I think you're right, diagrams would most likely help here, as we might be talking about very similar things, and applying them differently.

 

[Zero]

A proper hook is done with the elbow at 90 degrees. To hit with the fist at that angle means that the elbow would miss. To get them both at the same distance, you need to make the angle more acute, which takes away structural base to the arm, and removes power from the strike. I do know the old trick of "missing" with the hook and hitting with the elbow, but the part you missed is the stealing of distance with the feet, which is how that works. And I'm not saying a hook won't knock someone out... but there's a bigger risk of damaging your own hand. A palm knocks people out just as easily, with less risk (believe me, I've done it a number of times now...). And I'm not sure how you get a hook "closer range than an elbow", unless it's impacting as the hand comes back towards yourself, which would leave it susceptible to being more glancing them powerful. The simple fact that the hook is at the end of your arm (your hand) makes it out past your elbow, in terms of range... but I think you're right, diagrams would most likely help here, as we might be talking about very similar things, and applying them differently.

OK Chris, I just tried drawing some diagrams to upload (kind of like the type in Bruce Lee's books or even stick figures) and now realise how truely woeful I am at drawing! Yikes! All I can say is that, yes, generally the angle of the elbow for a "standard" hook will be 90 degrees but I don't think you can call this a "proper hook" (therefore implying other variations are "not proper" (what does that mean? they don't work?)). The closer you are to your opponent (and I am not talking about stealing distance with your feet with still a 90 degree angle), the tighter that angle will become however. This is still powerful and stable. I throw this a lot and have seen this done a lot by others both in boxing and other MAs. It is still a hook and can be done to the head or lower to the body, such as body rips (you must have seen these, or possibly received a few, and the angle is tighter than 90 degrees). The power of the punch is not smothered by being less than 90 degrees, the power is maintained by the twisting of your body, through the foot (ball/toes) and hips. The punch is kept stable via employing lats and due to it being kept close to the body.
While a hook can be thrown with the palm facing the ground or facing back at the striker, the tighter angled hooks are more commonly (at least from my observations and experience) used with your palm facing you. I prefer executing with the palm facing towards me as I find the arm is lesss restricted in movement.

 

[punisher73]

A good book to give you a variety of kicks that can be used in an MMA/Self defense arena is by Mark Hatmaker
http://www.amazon.com/No-Holds-Barr...1363871944&sr=8-2&keywords=mark+hatmaker+kick

You can usually get it at Barnes and Noble for around $12 or so. That being said, I will give the caveat that it still doesn't replace a live instructor blah blah blah.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Just for your information. Aikido does use kicks from time to time. Most times it is just the front kick.

Thanks but I was actually aware of that. When Aikido guys practice defence against kicks someone has to do them.

 

[Cyriacus]

I'm not sure of anyone that would choose an approach that might break your hands over one that has almost no risk, when both provide equal power and effectiveness (although, honestly, I think an open hand is more effective), due to "not caring about breaking your hand".... why would you willingly sacrifice your hand when you don't need to?



Well, if you go to that as a backup for the strike missing, you've moved away from effectiveness/reliability as a striking method, haven't you? So while you might be able to, why would you have that as a backup for a less-effective method, when a better, more reliable one, that doesn't require such a backup plan is there?


A proper hook is done with the elbow at 90 degrees. To hit with the fist at that angle means that the elbow would miss. To get them both at the same distance, you need to make the angle more acute, which takes away structural base to the arm, and removes power from the strike. I do know the old trick of "missing" with the hook and hitting with the elbow, but the part you missed is the stealing of distance with the feet, which is how that works. And I'm not saying a hook won't knock someone out... but there's a bigger risk of damaging your own hand. A palm knocks people out just as easily, with less risk (believe me, I've done it a number of times now...). And I'm not sure how you get a hook "closer range than an elbow", unless it's impacting as the hand comes back towards yourself, which would leave it susceptible to being more glancing them powerful. The simple fact that the hook is at the end of your arm (your hand) makes it out past your elbow, in terms of range... but I think you're right, diagrams would most likely help here, as we might be talking about very similar things, and applying them differently.

Ill call these paragraphs 1-3 and save some editing.

1; Because its a reduced risk, not a guarantee of not injuring your hand on the other side. But again, im not criticizing open hand work. Its a bit hard to praise the contrary without making it sound that way. Not caring about breaking your hand, to me, means taking a chance in order to work a different angle. With that being said, i had an epiphany of sorts not long ago that i may have totally overlooked (not in general. just in this conversation) the fact that a straight line palm heel could still work at a body to body range by just adjusting the angle slightly vertically. I suspect i was being a bit rigid in my earlier thinking and looking at them as 'separate techniques' rather than different angles of the same archetype of strike. Or something like that.

2; Well, you might like headlocks. However, i get what youre saying, and i suspect i overlooked that due to the above line of thinking.

3; And what about palm hooks? I took issue mainly to the range on them. But again, that may be irrelevant.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ill call these paragraphs 1-3 and save some editing.

Cool. I'll break them up again.

1; Because its a reduced risk, not a guarantee of not injuring your hand on the other side. But again, im not criticizing open hand work. Its a bit hard to praise the contrary without making it sound that way. Not caring about breaking your hand, to me, means taking a chance in order to work a different angle. With that being said, i had an epiphany of sorts not long ago that i may have totally overlooked (not in general. just in this conversation) the fact that a straight line palm heel could still work at a body to body range by just adjusting the angle slightly vertically. I suspect i was being a bit rigid in my earlier thinking and looking at them as 'separate techniques' rather than different angles of the same archetype of strike. Or something like that.

Then let's clarify what I meant... with a solid fist, unless you're hitting something soft, or that moves, there's a damn good chance of breaking your hand. With a palm, it's virtually impossible. Boxers break their hands, even with wrapping and gloves. An open palm just doesn't have that problem. Hell, Mike Tyson broke his hand in a street altercation. Why? Because he hit someone in the head with his fist.

2; Well, you might like headlocks. However, i get what youre saying, and i suspect i overlooked that due to the above line of thinking.

Still kinda beside the point.... if you like headlocks, then you'd have that as your primary aim, not as a fallback to a missed strike.

3; And what about palm hooks? I took issue mainly to the range on them. But again, that may be irrelevant.

With a palm hook, as you noted earlier, the range can be adjusted by altering the orientation of the hand (fingers away for longer range, fingers upright for mid, and fingers pointing back for close range) without affecting the structure of the arm. In fact, my most dominant strike is a palm hook, as it's the most reliable, most high-return, most versatile, safest, easiest, most powerful, fastest strike available to me. And believe me, my guys know just what that strike can do...

 

[Cyriacus]

Cool. I'll break them up again.

Then let's clarify what I meant... with a solid fist, unless you're hitting something soft, or that moves, there's a damn good chance of breaking your hand. With a palm, it's virtually impossible. Boxers break their hands, even with wrapping and gloves. An open palm just doesn't have that problem. Hell, Mike Tyson broke his hand in a street altercation. Why? Because he hit someone in the head with his fist.


Still kinda beside the point.... if you like headlocks, then you'd have that as your primary aim, not as a fallback to a missed strike.

With a palm hook, as you noted earlier, the range can be adjusted by altering the orientation of the hand (fingers away for longer range, fingers upright for mid, and fingers pointing back for close range) without affecting the structure of the arm. In fact, my most dominant strike is a palm hook, as it's the most reliable, most high-return, most versatile, safest, easiest, most powerful, fastest strike available to me. And believe me, my guys know just what that strike can do...

You present a good argument.

Im aware of the injury factor, however i might also be underestimating it due to never having sustained any injuries from punching. So, im going to, for the sake of discussion, change my viewpoint on that for the moment. Im not so attached to my previous statement that i wont try a new view.

See now, where youre causing me to rethink things is on the third paragraph. Its so obvious, yet i havent really looked at it like that. And in retrospect (im positive theres a better word), headlocking someone then palming them would probably be easier than punching them, because foreheads.

I might need to experiment with that. Though i know how to throw palm hooks, ive always sort of overlooked them for the previously mentioned reasons. I dont feel like i should say anything more about it until i actually put some more work into them. But, this is quite possibly the first time ive heard you directly call a strike high return, versatile, safe, easy, powerful, and fast. Usually your informations good, so im not going to overlook it. So, ill pop back into this thread tomorrow or the day after upon actually trying things with someone before i draw conclusions about them, and see if i need to retract my previous statements.

Until then, carry on everyone. Sorry for the diversion!

 

[RTKDCMB]

Then let's clarify what I meant... with a solid fist, unless you're hitting something soft, or that moves, there's a damn good chance of breaking your hand. With a palm, it's virtually impossible. Boxers break their hands, even with wrapping and gloves. An open palm just doesn't have that problem. Hell, Mike Tyson broke his hand in a street altercation. Why? Because he hit someone in the head with his fist.

Punching - being a bit off topic I would suggest that the main reason, besides being able to punch very hard, boxers break their hands punching to the head is because the gloves they are so used to wearing do not allow them to clench their fists fully and the hand/wrist wraps take away much of the reliance on wrist strength on correct wrist alignment. If you punch someone in the forehead then you are likely to break your hand, punching to the jaw is less risky and conditioning the fist can reduce the risks considerably. Palm strikes have their own dangers such as spraining or breaking your wrist if you get the angle wrong even when hitting something soft.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Then let's clarify what I meant... with a solid fist, unless you're hitting something soft, or that moves, there's a damn good chance of breaking your hand. With a palm, it's virtually impossible.

Not so, Chris. Palm strikes result in fractures, most commonly to the navicula and ulna, especially ulnar stylet fractures. I can't say what the relative odds of a fracture are, primarily because of a lack of studies. But these are not at all uncommon injuries.

Boxers break their hands, even with wrapping and gloves. An open palm just doesn't have that problem. Hell, Mike Tyson broke his hand in a street altercation. Why? Because he hit someone in the head with his fist.

The gloves worn by boxers prevent closing the hand, and reduce (nearly eliminate?) the need for proper hand/wrist/forearm alignment. When a boxer punches something without a glove, this would lead to injuries. Considering that the classic "boxers fracture" is a fracture of the 4th of 5th metacarpal and that this fracture is virtually always the result of improper alignment during the strike, I think there is little to debate.
And of course, boxers don't generally (so far as I know) condition the hands in the way most of us do.