Do I need to learn combinations for self defense purposes?

[ViKtoricus]

Hello everybody! I am new here. My name is Bee.

I am not looking to compete in MMA, just wanting to learn martial arts for self defense. There's a local Judo club in my area that seems legit. I can't wait to join it.

However, when it comes to kicking (muay thai style), do I need combinations? Or simply doing a lead-leg roundhouse + power-leg roundhouse combo enough as a weapon for self defense? Do I need to hide my roundhouse from punches?

Thanks.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hello everybody! I am new here. My name is Bee.

I am not looking to compete in MMA, just wanting to learn martial arts for self defense. There's a local Judo club in my area that seems legit. I can't wait to join it.

However, when it comes to kicking (muay thai style), do I need combinations? Or simply doing a lead-leg roundhouse + power-leg roundhouse combo enough as a weapon for self defense? Do I need to hide my roundhouse from punches?

Thanks.

No, you don't need kicking combinations. I think its best you hide the roundhouse "with" your punches. LOL

 

[Prostar]

One of my favorite fighters to watch is Cung Le simply because he has a good arsenal of kicks. He also does them in nice combinations.

Much can be said, however, for keeping techniques simple and powerful. Eddie Andujar had that spinning back fist. Riley Hawkins, from Baltimore, had a great lunging reverse punch that people call a Superman Punch today. People looked like deer in the headlights when they saw it coming.
However, I always said that if I know what you are going to throw, I got you.

I always practiced combinations for the simple reason that it improved the fluidity in and out of techniques. By changing up the combinations, I learned not to depend on any one thing. Of course I had my go to kicks but I tried to not rely on them too much. In the end, I learned to get out of the way of myself and let them fly.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Hello everybody! I am new here. My name is Bee.

I am not looking to compete in MMA, just wanting to learn martial arts for self defense. There's a local Judo club in my area that seems legit. I can't wait to join it.

However, when it comes to kicking (muay thai style), do I need combinations? Or simply doing a lead-leg roundhouse + power-leg roundhouse combo enough as a weapon for self defense? Do I need to hide my roundhouse from punches?

Thanks.

Of course you need combinations because:

1. You may miss the first kick.
2. The may block the first kick.
3. They may evade the first kick.
4. The first kick may not have the power or accuracy to finish them off.
5. etc.

 

[Zero]

Hello everybody! I am new here. My name is Bee.

I am not looking to compete in MMA, just wanting to learn martial arts for self defense. There's a local Judo club in my area that seems legit. I can't wait to join it.

However, when it comes to kicking (muay thai style), do I need combinations? Or simply doing a lead-leg roundhouse + power-leg roundhouse combo enough as a weapon for self defense? Do I need to hide my roundhouse from punches?

Thanks.

While everything is situational dependant, so that a kick (even high kick) or several kicks in succession could be a viable and effective option in SD, in general (and its always dangerous to generalise) for a SD situation I would not look to throwing a repetition of kicks or combination of such. Combinations in themselves (both for tournament and SD) are very good but I think more important is the training of combinations as a tool and concept so that you develope the ability to flow from one strike/move/techniquw to the next, it could be a combination of successive, quick punches to floor an assailent, or it could be a shin rake/arch stomp/side or top of knee strike leading to an uppercut and then leg sweep and then exiting the area by running (if you think due to environment it is required or safest to flee and deal with LEOs later, if at all).

It is were to be a succession of kicks, it would not be the flash ones. I might go for one head hunter if I felt the strike was on, but you would not be wanting to emulate what Cung Lee does in the ring when you are jumped in the street or opening your car door. You could use several front thrust kicks or the like in a row to keep an aggressor or aggressors out of range or to floor them and then run. If you are going to or need to engage when in an SD scenario you need it to be quick, in close, brutal and over. You may assume that the guy coming at you who initally has empty hands may not be carrying a blade or gun (or other buddies coming to join him) so that you can throw some lovely kicks out there after the first one fails to stop things but that's a risk/gamble you take.

As said, it is good to have the ability to transition where the first technique does not work and for whatever reason trying to apply the same technique again is not an option. But sometimes use of the same technique/strike at the same target area, bam, bam, bam can also be a good thing. : )

 

[SENC-33]

My approach to kicking for "self defense"......

Kick to the shin or solar plexus with a quick snap to get away or set up a finishing strike from an upward knee or downward elbow. A snap kick or "rake" to the shin area (in self defense you will more than likely have shoes on) is directly on bone and if done with malicious intent can be brutally effective. It is unexpected and takes little room to be forceful.......

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

just wanting to learn martial arts for self defense.

It doesn't matter what kind of nice words that you may use, when your "fist/foot meets your opponent's face", you are standing and your opponent is down. You can even call it "to help your opponent to sleep".

I truly don't know "training for self-defense" can be any difference from regular MA training. Will you punch in different way or kick in different way? I don't think so. If you want your technique to work, you still have to go through develop, test, enhance, and polish stages.

IMO, any combo is advance level training. You have to be good on solo techniques first. You then train how to counter it. After that you then start your combo training. So kicking combination should be trained after you have train "how to defense against kick". This way, you can think the way as your opponent does and your combo can work much better.

 

[Argus]

While I'm by no means any expert on the subject, the general wisdom that I've heard goes as follows:

In most SD scenarios, it's likely that you likely won't have the luxury of kicking range. It's best to focus on solid hand strikes, and keep any kicks that you do practice low and simple.

My common sense approach would be that feinting, set combinations, and any kind of fancy kicks or intricate "if he does this you do that" type of movements have little relevance to self-defense. In general, it's probably best not to have preconceptions of what you will do; just focus on developing very solid basics, and striking effectively. What you need will come out as it's needed, and if you have it well ingrained, should come out effectively even under pressure.

You can give some thought to follow up strikes, of course, and it is a good habit to always follow up on any attack. But even then, keep it simple. If you land a straight punch, follow up with another straight punch. If you want to follow up on a kick, you can use the kick to take a large step as you plant it on the ground, and follow up with hand strikes. Keep kicks straight and low; a simple front kick is probably one of the safest and most applicable to self defense, and is easy to follow up with hand strikes if you use it to step in.

At least, that's my "common sense" take, influenced by my particular training and the more experienced people who I've heard talk about the subject.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hello everybody! I am new here. My name is Bee.

I am not looking to compete in MMA, just wanting to learn martial arts for self defense. There's a local Judo club in my area that seems legit. I can't wait to join it.

However, when it comes to kicking (muay thai style), do I need combinations? Or simply doing a lead-leg roundhouse + power-leg roundhouse combo enough as a weapon for self defense? Do I need to hide my roundhouse from punches?

Thanks.

Hi Bee,

No, you don't. More importantly, you're heading in completely the wrong direction for your stated aims and goals. Everything you're talking about here is nothing to do with self defence training... instead, it's completely centered on sports methodology. Muay Thai, MMA, Judo, combinations... these are all sporting systems and concepts. Now, that's fine, but the way you're going about this is like saying you want to get fluent in French, so you're going to live in China.

Of course you need combinations because:

1. You may miss the first kick.
2. The may block the first kick.
3. They may evade the first kick.
4. The first kick may not have the power or accuracy to finish them off.
5. etc.

Yeah, again, this is completely sporting in it's context. And completely irrelevant to self defence. As well as, well, missing the point of combinations, honestly...

Let's go through this in a bit more detail.

Combinations are not "what if" sequences, they are methods of moving from one action to another, using one to set the next up, and so on. They are designed for application against a skilled opponent... they aim to break down or past a defence, or draw attention in one direction before moving in another. The thing is, that's a context for a sporting contest, and has really nothing to do with self defence training at all. For self defence training, you need primarily to understand a tactical approach, rather than a "technique-based" one (which is what combinations are). Tactics supersede techniques, and should be the primary locus of all self defence training.

It doesn't matter what kind of nice words that you may use, when your "fist/foot meets your opponent's face", you are standing and your opponent is down. You can even call it "to help your opponent to sleep".

I truly don't know "training for self-defense" can be any difference from regular MA training. Will you punch in different way or kick in different way? I don't think so. If you want your technique to work, you still have to go through develop, test, enhance, and polish stages.

IMO, any combo is advance level training. You have to be good on solo techniques first. You then train how to counter it. After that you then start your combo training. So kicking combination should be trained after you have train "how to defense against kick". This way, you can think the way as your opponent does and your combo can work much better.

Hmm... to begin with, to answer "can 'training for self defence' be any different from 'regular' martial art training?", absolutely it is. It needs to be, especially when compared and contrasted with sports-centric methodologies. Tactically, they're completely different, goal-orientation is completely different, timetables are completely different, mentality is completely different, contextual application is completely different, even technical and mechanical application can be completely different (although there can be, and is, some cross-over there), and far, far more.

That said, I have to say, John, that I can't agree with anything you say. Honestly, it comes across to me as incredibly limited and ill-informed, and often barely tangentially relevant. Here, while I get what you mean when you talk about combination training coming after working on single techniques, the idea that that's "advanced" is way out of whack with anything I've seen from any martial art at all. The way a martial art puts together it's applications and sequences of one move to another is what makes it a martial art... thinking that just working on this kick, or this punch is enough is to completely miss the fact that it's simply not a martial art at that point.... it's just a technique.

 

[RTKDCMB]

As well as, well, missing the point of combinations, honestly...

I can see the point missing out pointer outerer is on the job. I'm not missing the point at all, I only listed 4 points out of many possible points, that's why point 5 was etc.

Let's go through this in a bit more detail.

Combinations are not "what if" sequences, they are methods of moving from one action to another, using one to set the next up, and so on.

Actually they are both. You move from one action to another because the finisher may need a setup to work effectively or the first action may not always be successful, it may, for example, be easily defended causing the opponent to open up another target that can be attacked more easily with the second action (e.g. I attack with a high lead hand back fist, causing the opponent to lift his arm up to block, leaving his ribs open for a side kick). That is a tactic using a combination. It is part of the etc in point 5.

They are designed for application against a skilled opponent... they aim to break down or past a defence, or draw attention in one direction before moving in another. The thing is, that's a context for a sporting contest, and has really nothing to do with self defence training at all. For self defence training, you need primarily to understand a tactical approach, rather than a "technique-based" one (which is what combinations are). Tactics supersede techniques, and should be the primary locus of all self defence training.

That has a lot to do with self defence because you may have to defend yourself a skilled opponent. Tactics are very important, yes, but tactics require techniques to work effectively. You may have tactics to avoid an opponent's attacks and incapacitate him but if you don't know any evasion, blocking, grappling or striking techniques then the tactic is worthless. For self defence you need to understand both aspects, not just one.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hey Bee, can you clarify whether your question is regarding combinations of kicks or regarding combinations of kicks with other techniques? Some people seem to be reading the question one way and some are reading it the other.

As far as my two cents goes: techniques should always be done in combination. Regardless of whether you are training for self-defense or competition, you cannot assume that a single punch/kick/throw/whatever is going to end the fight. If you fire off a single technique and wait around to see if it worked, you are likely to get overwhelmed by an attacker who is not pausing after throwing one punch.

That said, kicks are not generally your first go-to technique for most self-defense situations. For one thing, they carry a higher risk-to-reward ratio than many of your other options. For another, serious assaults will typically start at a closer range than is ideal for kicking.

If you do use kicks in a self-defense situation, the best approach is to use them in combination with other techniques. For example, someone tackles you football style. You might respond by stuffing the takedown, gaining control of the clinch, using that control to do some quick damage (knees, elbows, uppercuts, eye gouges, groin slaps, etc), use head control to spin them away and off-balance, and land a hard kick as you break contact.

Actual combinations of kicks are less likely to be the ideal tactic in a self-defense situation.

For one thing, most kicking combinations are based on a "sparring/dueling" range where two combatants are squared off outside close punching distance and are being somewhat respectful in watching what attacks the other might throw. You do see this sometimes in consensual fights, but if you find yourself there in a self-defense situation you're better off using the opportunity to verbally de-escalate or physically escape.

For another thing, throwing combinations of kicks means that you are spending more time on one leg which is frequently inadvisable in a self-defense situation where you may run afoul of environmental factors or get tackled by a second assailant while you are kicking the first one.

You don't specify whether you are training Muay Thai with an actual instructor. In my experience the kicking combinations generally taught in Muay Thai are either:

1) Combinations of kicks with punches (either the punches set up the kick or vice versa)
2) Very simple and short combinations of kicks (I think these would typically be more useful in the ring than on the street)
3) Exercises to develop better body control (you're not really training to throw 10 kicks in a row - you're training to be able to throw one kick fast and hard from any position)

Hope that helps.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The way a martial art puts together it's applications and sequences of one move to another is what makes it a martial art... thinking that just working on this kick, or this punch is enough is to completely miss the fact that it's simply not a martial art at that point.... it's just a technique.

All trees grow out of a root (trunk). The root is your initial move. You spend 6 months to develop that initial move, test it against your opponents, until you can make it to work with high successful rate, you then use that move as "set up", while your opponent tries to deal with your initial move, you take advantage on his reaction, and use your next move. Now your tree starts to branch out. How many branches that you can grow out of your tree trunk depends on your understand of MA. After you have planted the 1st tree, you then start to plant your 2nd tree. If you train hard enough, you may have 5 or 6 such trees grow in your life time.

The stronger that you grow your tree root (trunk), the more branches it can grow out of it.

 

[CK1980]

I would tend to agree with everyone here who is in support of the idea of knowing at least a few different combinations of strikes... The reasons are numerous, especially for Self Defense...
1- Unless you get very lucky, one hit probably wont end it.
2- Knowing combinations teaches you how the human body moves and flows.
3- Practicing combinations makes them "second nature", which means you act/react with multiple strikes (see #1 above)

 

[Argus]

All trees grow out of a root (trunk). The root is your initial move. You spend 6 months to develop that initial move, test it against your opponents, until you can make it to work with high successful rate, you then use that move as "set up", while your opponent tries to deal with your initial move, you take advantage on his reaction, and use your next move. Now your tree starts to branch out. How many branches that you can grow out of your tree trunk depends on your understand of MA. After you have planted the 1st tree, you then start to plant your 2nd tree. If you train hard enough, you may have 5 or 6 such trees grow in your life time.

The stronger that you grow your tree root (trunk), the more branches it can grow out of it.

I think you're missing Chris' point. Self-defense scenarios don't generally work that way. Someone intent on attacking you is not going to get up into your face, and then jump two steps backwards, put up their hands, and poke at you from a distance. He's going to get up in your face and stay there. You don't "set up" your opponent. You don't have time for that. Your opponent isn't going to carefully play the distance game. He is most likely going to close very quickly and very aggressively, and you need to respond offensively in that very moment. You don't have the luxury to dance around and set him up. He's already on top of you. If he's not, then you shouldn't be fighting him anyway - you should just disengage and run.

 

[CK1980]

I agree with that... More times than not, when someone decides they want to fight you, they are going to start a fight... No warning, no tap dancing, no love taps...

That goes back to my initial response, knowing combinations teaches you how the human body moves-- and that's not just your body, it's theirs too...

 

[chinto]

Combinations are your friend. if you are ever in a self defense situation, do not depend on one punch or kick to end it! if one does end it, Great! But combinations will help you stop that attackers attack and finish the attackers ability to continue quickly!

The other factor is many street fighters and thugs have learned at least one combination of blows, and using and knowing some of them will help you to counter their attacks.

 

[Balrog]

You should learn to do kicking combinations and practice them full force against a bag. Yes, it's for self-defense, but the primary side benefit from it is that your balance will improve greatly, thereby making the first kick more effective.

 

[donald1]

Good combination, but regardless which style your in for self defense like you said there's always the "what ifs" if you have your attacks from different sides and angles to mix it up (don't focus on one combo) if they block and counter you have to have a plan to counter their reaction)

 

[Mark Lynn]

Hello everybody! I am new here. My name is Bee.

I am not looking to compete in MMA, just wanting to learn martial arts for self defense. There's a local Judo club in my area that seems legit. I can't wait to join it.

However, when it comes to kicking (muay thai style), do I need combinations? Or simply doing a lead-leg roundhouse + power-leg roundhouse combo enough as a weapon for self defense? Do I need to hide my roundhouse from punches?

Thanks.

Bee

From your question here I believe you are on the right track picking the Muay Thai style type of roundhouse and applying it to self defense. I disagree with the point of view of needing to learn combinations for self defense, instead I believe you need a small group of techniques learned to a decent skill level and then go from there.

In regards to being in or out of kicking range, for self defense training I believe it is more about disrupting the person's balance, interrupting their intent to hit you and hurting the person enough so they might not follow you as you get the hell out of there. The low line Thai roundhouse is a good kick for this type of scenario. If the person is close enough to hit you with a punch you are close enough to kick his leg, while his focus is on your face and threatening you that low line kick comes in under the radar screen (so to speak) and can ruin their day. If the person swings a back hand attack with or without a weapon and you block on the outside of the arm again the low line kick to the back of his legs can disrupt his balance and interrupt his follow up attacks. If he grabs at you, pushes or tries to shove you you can deflect and still get that kick in and so on.

In the scenarios listed above, I'm not advocating; kicking shin to shin, going for the head, really even going for the chest, breaking their knees etc. etc. just a good swift powerful kick to the back, or side of their leg to break the balance, or shock the muscle, cause pain (so they don't want to follow you), and or disrupt their balance. Because you are kicking with your shin this has a larger surface area to hit with over all than say a front kick where you are kicking with the ball of your foot, or the bottom of the foot, more striking surface to me means a better chance that it will connect and accomplish some of what I hope in that type of situation.

Train a few good strikes such as palm heels, slaps and such and learn to cover and I believe you have a good start.

If your goal is training for self defense and you are planning to learn Judo (the sport) I believe is counter productive. Not that Judo is bad, and not that Judo can't be effective self defense cause it can be. I mean it was taught to our military after WWII, so it can defiantly be used for combatives and self defense. But it wasn't taught with the goal of raising up GI competitors, instead it was taught with the intent of how to subdue and take out the enemy and that is different training methodology. You might talk with the instructor and see how the school is set up, is it for competition and that is it's main goal, or is it more like combat Judo (self defense type material).

Since the poster's stated purpose was for learning self defense, I'm disregarding the training for the ring mind set. I totally agree that training combinations is important, I agree that training high kicks for the ring has it's benefits, that Judo is a great sport or martial art etc. etc. I think training to learn a "martial art" or a "martial sport" is different than training to learn purely self defense.