Kicks!!! How many of what kind are needed for self defense.

As you decided you would actually say more about hand striking in this thread...

True although a broken hand will not necessarily end a fight.

And... where was it even intimated that it would? All that was intimated was that actions that can break your hand can break your hand...

I was referring to the targets of the punch not targets for just anything. Yes I missed the cheekbone, thank you for pointing that out. The base of the skull is more of a target for the knife hand strike. the jaw joint I was referring to is just under the ear where the jaw bone meets the skull. Punching anywhere near the mouth is a bad idea unless you want teeth imbedded in your hand. The point below the nose you are referring to is called the philtrim area and is usually a target for the middle knuckle fist or the bear hand (panther fist or whatever you want to call it). The top of the head is more for the hammer fist, I would never punch there. The center of the forehead is not really a good target for anything this is the most likely spot to break your hand on and the orbital bone is not much better so I wouldn't punch there either. The temple, struck with either the front or the back of the knuckles, is not that hard to hit when you are accurate and skillful and you don't have to hit it hard enough to break your hand for it to have a desirable (for you) effect.

And, again, you seem to have missed the point. For the record, I wasn't listing target areas for fists alone, and I'd argue that there are better hand-forms to use than the ones you're suggesting.

I will concede the point about cortical remodeling but Wolff's law still applies.

Not in the way you're implying.

I don't know how you think knuckle pushups are done but what you said is not true for the way others do them. Others get with plenty of benefits out of doing knuckle pushups with proper alignment.

Knuckle push-ups are basically done two ways; either with the hands close (approximately placed underneath your shoulders), which means that there is a lot of side-loading and strain placed on the wrists, or by having the hands further apart, maintaining a straight line for the wrist, but moving the effective stress up to the shoulders and upper arms, which means it doesn't do anything for conditioning the hands or wrists.

Again, knuckle push-ups don't actually do anything for striking or punching.

Punching, like anything, if you don't believe in it, practice it or use it then it will do nothing for you, if you prefer open hand strikes to punching and/or don't use punching at all then good for you, we all have to use what works for us which is not always the same as what works for someone else. That is the last I will say on the subject of punching in this kicking thread.

No. For one thing, you've assigned a false value here... closed fists are quite prominent in my training, and I definitely use them. Second, while the belief can lead to preferences, having a belief that you can fly doesn't mean you can, and those that can't just don't believe in it. It's a big difference between arguing that a closed fist to a large, dense bone mass is riskier than an open hand to that same bone mass, and that closed fists just "don't work for someone else".

Since this thread on kicking seemed to go towards punching versus palm strikes which caused some disagreement over potential injuries so here is an article I just found so you can decide for yourselves.

http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/breakyourhand/breakyourhand.html

Well, personally, I feel that the article was a whole lot of nothing. Firstly, there are many records of broken hands in pugilistic sports, whether straight-out boxing, kickboxing, MMA, or anything else... all with closed fists, with or without gloves. So his first comment on the "myth" is false. He also misses that, in many of the older bare-knuckle fighting forms, closed fists would often be used only in the initial rounds... open hands would be prevalent later, which was often due to injuries to the hands sustained by using a closed fist. Then you get his take on a palm strike.... which is just an incredibly bad example, and a deeply flawed way of using one. When I strike with a palm, the wrist is almost straight, not the over-bent form he's showing here. This is an old trick, where you show a flawed version of whatever it is you're trying to discredit, in order to make your argument seem more valid...

As far as conditioning methods, he's basically advocating the exact same method that traditional arts use... striking, often supplemented by an ointment in order to strengthen the skin and reduce injury there. Nothing about knuckle push-ups, breaking objects, or anything else you suggested earlier.

Oh, and his biomechanics for a punch are flawed as well, due to a heavy bias, rather than anything actually correct. All in all, not a good article, with no support to many of the claims it's making.
 
I don't know what bearing, this will have on the punching aspect of this thread, but ill throw it out there any ways. I talked to one of my friends at work. He is the person that got me started in boxing, before sending me to another for training proper, as his health would not allow it. He him self has 2x golden gloves. Needless to say I respect his opinion. I mention this only so people realize im not talking about some untrained street hooligan.

We were talking about street fights, and he mentioned that he got into 4 of them, all during his active boxing years. During that interesting conversation, one of the things I asked him was, did you break your hands in any of the fights? He said no, so i asked him how he managed to avoid that. He told me, he know were to punch and had the control and accuracy to punch those places that were the least risk. In one fight, he lead off with 3 stiff jabs to the guys face, like right on the nose. Followed by a right straight to the chest, and another stiff left to the face again. Thus ending that fight. He told me that in all his fights, he targeted the chest and the face and jaw, for anything else would be detrimental to his hands.

He also mentioned that he didn't just unleash a storm of punches, he kept his volume of punches very low. Only using a few at a time.

Now he is a golden glove boxer, and at 62 i would not want to step into the ring with him. He still has it if you know what i mean. I don't think this proves or disproves anything, other then, Practice a heck of a lot, know were to strike that has the least amount of risk, and have a proper fist.(for your style that is)

Now on to kicks. I have been watching KwonKickers tutorials on the hook kick and spinning hook kick. I had no idea that those were 2 different animals. Im finding the foot work to be a little difficult. I keep loosing balance during the cross steps. More practice is needed lol.
 
Those are all fine theories. Want to take a guess how often these injuries actually occur in the real world? I've only been in the ER for better than 20 years...
Well... Concussions do happen a lot. In fact, probably a lot more than we know. As to the rest.. don' know.
 
Any reasonable amount of stress on the bones will strengthen them (Wolfe's law, cortical remodeling), a single punch through 2 or 3 boards will do more to condition the hands than a single punch on a punching bag. Stronger fingers mean that you can clench the fist tighter.
There seems to have been a bit of discussion stemming from this para. "Any reasonable amount of stress on the bones will strengthen them (Wolfe's law, cortical remodeling)", is true. But the following comments are not related. 'The stress' referred to under Wolff's law is in regard to weight bearing (increasing with weightlifting and decreasing with astronauts) or usage apply stress via ligaments, as in a tennis serve. 'Cortical remodelling' is the natural loss and redeposition of the bone. Not a lot to do with the stress as we are discussing.

So, knuckle push-ups? They will certainly build callous tissue and if you are lifting off the floor you might get the micro fractures that will cause an increase in bone density. Striking a makiwara has the same effect. Striking a heavy bag might strengthen the bone where ligaments attach and will make sure your alignment is correct.

if you really want to strengthen the bones in your knuckles, you need to punch a hard surface hard enough to damage the bone, so it reforms with less porous structure. I'm not convinced that this is the greatest idea for recreational martial artists. Building callous tissue will insulated the hands from the stress of a bone on bone strike and, for me, is the preferred option. :asian:
 
I beg to differ, good sir. I cant use my right hands knuckles, and i still think punching is better than palming or elbowing :)

Its been a little while, but i remember making this post.

Alrighty. Short version? I was wrong. Simple as that, really. Itd take a while to explain why, but basically, i spent this weekend just gone interrogating some things about palm strikes a bit with a few friends, and the simplest form of the conclusion i came to is that i was wrong, and i was missing two vital pieces of information. Or rather, i was misunderstanding two vital pieces of information, then i used them to defend a flawed case. And i was missing some details.

Ill leave it at that. I just felt like i should put this out there.
:lurk:
 
The front kick is the most effective way to stop any on coming opponent not sprinting at you. Step to the side and kneeing to the sternum will handle any person running at you.
 
Just saw the thread...sorry 9 pages too much to go through. :)

How many kicks needed? One. Or as many as it takes to get the head where I want it.
 
The front kick is the most effective way to stop any on coming opponent not sprinting at you. Step to the side and kneeing to the sternum will handle any person running at you.

Oh, Zanjael.

If you step to the side and knee to the sternum youre politely putting yourself up on one leg against someones full momentum, then letting them get so close to you that you can free-standingly knee them. Im not even going to go into more detail than that. Im in a good mood.
 
The front kick is the mosteffective way to stop any on coming opponent not sprinting at you. Step to theside and kneeing to the sternum will handle any person running at you.

What kind of front kick? Targeting what?
How do you plan to knee a person in the sternum withoutlosing balance? And why the sternum? Why not the solar plexus?
Please elaborate, I’m interested in your train of thoughtand would like to see where you are coming from.
 

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